Excalibur Scroll Saw - What Happened?

Excellent. Very clear. So, if we want a 21" saw, it is going to have to be a King/Excelsior in order to get one made to the original specs. Thanks for the info.

Ray

Thanks Travis.  This was very enlightening and helpful.

My head hurts. 

This gist of the conversation, and probably the part that Matters is the sentiment that the stable line of saws that we were getting from Taiwan is that very same product now offered by everyone but General, and as a huge fan of the EX design, I'm thrilled about that, and just recently purchased the 16" King.

But, in trying to establish the "Original Manufacturer" as being in Taiwan, there is a huge logical problem:

"The many manufacturing nuances and extreme tolerances  make these saws virtually impossible to copy and have them function as they were originally designed."

and the "Original Manufacturer" . . . . "Note, when I use the term “original”, I refer to original manufacturer, original design, original components, parts, motors, and specifications."

The Original Designs and "Manufacturer" was "Somerville Design and Mfg"and the original Parts, designs, and etc were made in Canada.  That EX21 was Purple and had nothing whatsoever to do with Taiwan.  So, not only was Taiwan not the original manufacturer, they weren't even close.  I will also say, the complex part of the saw was being made by Sommverville long before the EX-21.  After the move to Taiwan, the only physical design change was the disastrous Dust Collection additions.  (The change in paint was nice, but is not a technical change).  So, arguably, the pre anniversary addition was the better saw.

Another note concerning that complex design, in the lawsuit between Somerville Design and Manufacturing vs J. Phillip Humfrey in 1999, Sommerville stated in reference to this core/complex technology: "Sommerville had no proprietary rights in it. The mechanism on which it was based, the parallel link, had been patented in 1870."  So even Sommerville took that core technical design that had been in existence for over 100 years, and made it work in his saws.  

So when General gained ownership of EX, they did that "Virtually Impossible" move of Manufacturing to Taiwan.  Yep, I'm sure there was some glitches in the early samples, but they got the Kinks worked out.  Dewalt, which has that same parallel link mechanism, was also made by Sommerville, and though the move overseas produced some Quality issues, that saw certainly survived. 

So, the same challenge that the Taiwan Manufacturer faced when they had to re-create the assembly of the saw  originally made in Canada, the China manufacture has that same challenge.  Whether or not they will be able to accomplish that feat as did the Taiwan manufacturer, well that remains to be seen.

The best part of the the whole story, that was left out, was the whole drama resulting from the sell to DMT, which is pretty well a "Paper Company" in Seattle with the real owner in China.  China and Taiwan are not getting along so well these days, and that was the real issue that caused the Manufacturer to bypass General and go it alone.  How do I know this . . . I can't say because I'm not throwing my source under the bus, but they are pretty darn close to the situation.

Thanks finally some clarity on this. I'm sure it has been long waited for.  

Now were the original Dewalt saws made in the same plant as the Excaliburs. I believe so. look what happened to Dewalt and all their problems. 

No matter what power tool you buy from Woodcraft you are on your own with service .I bought everything from Festool to Rikon from them.I knew this when I bought the tools.The service is only as good as the people wno made the tool.Have you ever seen a repair room in a Woodcraft stor or a parts room.

8 hours ago, hotshot said:

"The many manufacturing nuances and extreme tolerances  make these saws virtually impossible to copy and have them function as they were originally designed."

I'm pretty sure this is 100% wrong as the original purple Excalibur was designed by Sommerville and produced by a factory in Canada.  So that means the Taiwan company is no more the original Manufacturer than current China manufacturer used by General.  But what about the dust collection and holes in the table that were added after the move to Taiwan.  Yes, and what a disaster that turned out to be!  Many would say that was the opposite of a design improvement.  I would wager most users pull off the membrane almost immediately, as did I on my new King.  So those non-improvements did not really add to the core fuctionality or mechanics of the saw.  Black paint, now that was a 100x improvement, but not really a technical one.   So, to be fair, neither King nor the new Chinese Excaliburs are created on the "Original Excalibur Line which was in Canada", so neither production line can claim to be the "original."

So, since we know that General successfully move manufacturing once, I think that proves that assertion that it is "virtually impossible" to  move production, wrong on the very face of it.

Does this mean the new china Excalibur will be equal to the Taiwan counterpart, given some tweaks and adjustments?  It may or it may not be.  However, they have the same opportunity as the Taiwan manufacturers had with their own transition.  Were there glitches in the transition to Taiwan?  I suspect there were, but don't have the specifics.  I do know a little later, there was a batch of defective upper arm connector rods that got mixed into the Axminster saws that were breaking for a time.  By the time I got my green EX21, (and I had to wait months for Taiwan to deliver), that saw was rock solid.

Does this whole thread mean I'm anti King?  No I rooting for King with all I got, and just put my money where my mouth is by buying a King 16".  Was it perfect?  Overall I was pleased, but no, the King I just bought was so tight, the arm would barely lift or lower, and that was with the tension screw removed.  I finally resolved by loosening the top most bolt, but that saw should have never gotten past Quality Control.  I was a little concerned about my "fix", so I decided to play the scenario through support, and also see how support was handled.  I called Woodcraft first, they said all support is through King.  Then I send King an email, let's just say, there is some confusion about support.  Took several exchanges to establish where to even ask the first technical question.  As it turns out, there is no services centers in the U.S. and woodcraft is not able to provide technical support for the saws.  King says that the Woodcraft headquarters has been sent parts.  So, support is a little iffy on the King side right now, and Woodcraft is just selling the product, and parts, but not providing technical support.  

Does this mean I'm not happy with my King?  Actually I am happy with my new King, and have high hopes for it, but the King support model has a very long way to go.  So as we give King the benefit of the doubt, and a little "understanding" as they try to pull their game together, let's also give General that same benefit of the doubt.  Right now, we have no idea if China can pull it together or not.  General may very well fall on their face in China, but it doesn't feel right to condemn General to death just yet.

 

 

 

 

I agree with you on that statement.. 

Did you buy your green EX from Ray at seyco? My understanding was he unboxed the saws and tuned them etc so it's ready to go once you get it.. I ask this because you mentioned the upper arm of your new King saw... The upper arm on my NEW old ex out of the box was very similar to what you describe with your King.. If you look back through some post of mine you'd see I mention how I disliked how hard the upper arm was to lift up.. etc.. Just thinking this is a standard for brand new EX type saws out of the box before they are tuned and set up? 

What we really need clarity on is the support infrastructure around King, because the original goto technical resource was Seyco, and that "Original Support" is certainly not in place for King/Excelsior.  Seyco gave me a comfort level with my EX-21 that I certainly don't have with my new King.

To illustrate, I was a little concerned that the arm on the King was so freaking hard to move up or down.  I don't mean stiff, I mean hard.  I didn't originally worry, being a long time EX owner, I know all about the screw that presses against the arm to help hold it up.  So, when I got some time, I loosened the screw, still hard to move,  loosened some more, still hard, freaking screw fell out on the floor, obviously not applying pressure to the arm, still hard to move.  Ok, from the Veteran manufacturer, not sure how that ever got past the quality guys.

I ended up loosening the top most bolt on the arm, and that freed it up considerably, but I was still a bit concerned about my little fix, so I thought I would just play the problem out to support and see what their solution was.  The King Manual (Branded for the U.S. Market) said to call the "dealer for support."  I called Woodcraft, who said, all support is through King.  Right off the bat, the support model is starting to get muddled.  I contact King on March 12, but didn't get an answer back until March 16 . . . . they said  "There is a little "communication issue" with the head office for Woodcraft and the stores (independently owned).  We had sent parts ( and more as needed) to the corporate head office and the stores can access anything they need through them.  We can support you from Canada with technical information if needed and it is just taking a little while to get Woodcraft up to speed. They have a vendor trade show in May and this will be one of the topic for discussion to help them understand what is available to them.  We are relatively new to the US dealer scene also, but very familiar. We are just starting to set up our service network - but won't be long."

Ok, but that doesn't really help me since they still did not tell me how to engage technical support . . .so I wrote back to try to get that and they replied:  "You can certainly start here. We will re-direct if necessary." so I did and finally got this response:  "We had made an factory instruction to "tighten it up" a touch because there were some (mostly under the old Excalibur) that the arm would not stay up. Perhaps the floor hand was a bit too strong that day - sorry for that. It will loosen over time and the bolt will come into play then. Meantime, you could spread that "C" bracket apart if it is too tight. That will require a bit if digging to get in there however. "  Ok, so I'm relieved that what I did was consistent with their advice, and their explanation made sense, but that issues through Seyco would have been a simple call.

I've had worse customer service experiences, but this is certainly not Seyco quality customer service.  Support is a very critical factor in considering any product, so King has some distance to make up here.

------Randy

9 hours ago, hotshot said:

. . . The Original Designs and "Manufacturer" was "Somerville Design and Mfg"and the original Parts, designs, and etc were made in Canada.  That EX21 was Purple and had nothing whatsoever to do with Taiwan. . . . 

So Randy, what you are saying and the part that matters most to me - is that the Purple 21" Excalibur Saw that I bought used from Seyco a couple of years ago is in fact an actual original excalibur that was built in Canada before the manufacturing was changed to green and Taiwan.  Good to know - I was never really clear on the "history" as to where the purple fit in.  I bought it because it was an Excalibur brand machine that was suppose to be one of the better machines (and the purple color was a bonus to me because it is my favorite color. )   I also have an Original Dewalt Type 1 so I think I should hold on to both of them given the "known" history of them.

6 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

....My understanding was he unboxed the saws and tuned them etc so it's ready to go once you get it...

Kev, that is a good point, one that I had not considered.  My EX saw did come through Seyco.  Still, the amount of stiffness would have caused many people huge issues, so I can't believe that would be normal.

28 minutes ago, meflick said:

So Randy, what you are saying and the part that matters most to me - is that the Purple 21" Excalibur Saw that I bought used from Seyco a couple of years ago is in fact an actual original excalibur that was built in Canada before the manufacturing was changed to green and Taiwan.  Good to know - I was never really clear on the "history" as to where the purple fit in.  I bought it because it was an Excalibur brand machine that was suppose to be one of the better machines (and the purple color was a bonus to me because it is my favorite color. )   I also have an Original Dewalt Type 1 so I think I should hold on to both of them given the "known" history of them.

Yes, you have the "original" manufacturer version made in Canada.  Seyco started advertising these in about May of 2006.  Not only that, but did you know the Purple Excalibur originally had the Dewalt type tensioner and no knob in the back?  Which type does yours have?

The pre EX21 saws had the tension lever like today, but with the introduction of the EX21, they initially switched to this design as an improvement, but according to Ray at Seyco, the existing EX customers preferred the lever, so they reverted to the original EX tension levers.  Here is a picture of that original EX with Dewalt style tensioner: 

Good morning, first of all, let me thank Travis for helping us clarify to this forum, as best as I could, the evolution of the Excalibur scroll saw.  Secondly, I believe these forums are for the use of their members and there is no place for product endorsements by any executives or employees of any companies related to any woodworking products.  My intentions are simply to help put the proper names with the proper machines.  

Note: My compliments to Randy for his input on this topic.  He certainly has a handle on the early days of Excalibur.  It is refreshing to see professionals take the time to learn the history of where their machines come from, not just sit down and cut wood.

I spent 16 years with General International leaving my position as V.P. to join King Canada in early 2016.  I new Tom Sommerville well in those days and was instrumental in hiring Patrick Magro, who had been with Tom since 1987 and a true expert on the parallel link system, to join General and head up the Excalibur arm of G.I. 

In 2003, when the saw was sent to Taiwan to be manufactured, there were a number of issues that required Pat to attend the factory and work through some of those "nuances" that brought the saw to a place where it could be looked at as one of the premier professional scroll saws available.  Actually Sommerville's design was improved after the saw left Canada.

The Taiwanese manufacturer of all of these saws has invested a fortune in time and money to bring them to where they are today.  My point is simple. I don't believe one can disassemble the saw, copy all of its parts, put it back together and expect it work as the original. regardless of country of manufacture.

Tom Sommerville created a beautiful saw, G.I. with the help of Pat Magro took it to the next level. 

As mentioned, there is no place for me on this forum, forgive me for sticking my nose in and I hope you enjoy your new saw, no matter who's machine you decide to buy.

PK 

My new King also seemed really stiff in raising the arm. I was able to loosen the set screw on the side and get it loosened up. I like the saw so far. It wasn't long before i removed the dust collector. Once I did the transition to top feed became easier.

Phil

32 minutes ago, hotshot said:

Yes, you have the "original" manufactured version was just starting to be carried by Seyco in May of 2006.  Not only that, but did you know the Purple Excalibur originally had the Dewalt type tensioner and no knob in the back?  Which type does yours have?

The pre EX21 saws had the tension lever like today, but with the introduction of the EX21, they initially switched to this design as an improvement, but according to Ray at Seyco, the existing EX customers preferred the lever, so they reverted to the original EX tension levers.  Here is a picture of that original EX with Dewalt style tensioner: 

 

 

Thanks Randy.  When I bought the used purple one from Seyco - it was noted in the description that it had been modified to use the original EX tension levers.  At the time, I don't think I knew enough to understand what they meant!   Here is a photo of my purple one showing it has the knob in the back and the flip tensioner up front.  Same as my Seyco saw shown 2nd versus the Dewalt which looks like the purple excalibur picture you have shown with no knob in the back and the slide over tensioner knob. The Seyco is my go to saw and the Excalibur is setup next to it in the shop and gets some use.  The Dewalt is out in the garage now and hubby keeps asking me what I am going to do with it.  I told him to leave it alone. 

Thanks for adding some clarity to a confusing situation, Randy.

A couple points stand out to me.

1.  New Excalibur saws are being manufactured in China and only time will tell if the quality remains the same.  The fact that they are selling for less than they were a couple years ago may not necessarily be a good thing.

2. One reason Excalibur had such a good reputation was due to the service and support offered by Rey Seymour.  Expecting anything resembling that kind of service & support from anyone selling new Excaliburs may be a longshot.  For that matter, any of the new saws, other than the Seyco, may suffer from less than stellar support.

As an EX-21 owner for a couple years now, I haven't needed any service or support yet.  I know that Ray has commented that he will still support the saws he sold, but it does make one wonder how long that will hold true.  The scrollsaw landscape is changing dramatically and it may be a long time before it really settles down and we have a true picture of what is good and what isn't. 

Hegner---good---Advanced Machinery service----good

6 hours ago, Bill WIlson said:

.....For that matter, any of the new saws, other than the Seyco, may suffer from less than stellar support....

I suspect Jet may be the exception as they already have their support infrastructure stood up and try to protect their reputation as a premium brand.  And of course, Seyco also sells Jet, so that might add a second source for that flavor if you buy from Seyco.  To find our nearest Jet Service center:  http://www.jettools.com/us/en/service-and-support/service-center/

13 hours ago, PeterK said:

... there is no place for me on this forum, forgive me for sticking my nose in and I hope you enjoy your new saw, no matter who's machine you decide to buy.

PK 

Peter, actually, there is a very important place for you on the forum because if you visit here enough, you can start to get a feel for what the community would like improved in your saws and services.  When General first released the dust collection mechanisms, folks were excited, but that excitement quickly turned into frustration as the membrane started capturing little pieces and became a nuisance.  When the consensus amongst the consumers started trending heavily negative against this design, there did not seem to be a good feedback path to General.  Norm Frampton (Generals Sales and Marketing guy) used to receive feedback, but not sure if any of that feedback left his office or not.  I hammered him on the need to change the color from "Grizzly/Harbor Freight Green", but don't know if my pestering did any good (but we were all happy to see that first anniversary black).

So, King can "one up" General and create tool improvements that are vetted by those who are experts on the use of their tools.  This is a great place for King to get the Pulse of the scroll saw community if it really wants to make a positive difference in it's products.

So is there a place for you here?  Not only is there a seat for you at our table, that seat is pure gold.

7 hours ago, PeterK said:

Good morning, first of all, let me thank Travis for helping us clarify to this forum, as best as I could, the evolution of the Excalibur scroll saw.  Secondly, I believe these forums are for the use of their members and there is no place for product endorsements by any executives or employees of any companies related to any woodworking products.  My intentions are simply to help put the proper names with the proper machines.  

Note: My compliments to Randy for his input on this topic.  He certainly has a handle on the early days of Excalibur.  It is refreshing to see professionals take the time to learn the history of where their machines come from, not just sit down and cut wood.

I spent 16 years with General International leaving my position as V.P. to join King Canada in early 2016.  I new Tom Sommerville well in those days and was instrumental in hiring Patrick Magro, who had been with Tom since 1987 and a true expert on the parallel link system, to join General and head up the Excalibur arm of G.I. 

In 2003, when the saw was sent to Taiwan to be manufactured, there were a number of issues that required Pat to attend the factory and work through some of those "nuances" that brought the saw to a place where it could be looked at as one of the premier professional scroll saws available.  Actually Sommerville's design was improved after the saw left Canada.

The Taiwanese manufacturer of all of these saws has invested a fortune in time and money to bring them to where they are today.  My point is simple. I don't believe one can disassemble the saw, copy all of its parts, put it back together and expect it work as the original. regardless of country of manufacture.

Tom Sommerville created a beautiful saw, G.I. with the help of Pat Magro took it to the next level. 

As mentioned, there is no place for me on this forum, forgive me for sticking my nose in and I hope you enjoy your new saw, no matter who's machine you decide to buy.

PK 

I cannot speak for the other members of this forum.. but I'd love to see more interaction from companies that make the tools we all use...I think these days consumers are interested in the companies in which they may be purchasing items from.. and in this day and age.. the internet should make that easy.. The more personally known a company or brand is the more comfort level the consumer has in purchasing their products.. So this goes back to my first sentence..  I'm pretty certain others would also be interested in knowing someone from the company was here and somewhat active in the forums about their products.. I believe this is somewhat how Ray from Seyco got so well known.. Many people would rather buy from him because they have a sense or feeling of knowing who he is.. as he is on many of these message boards..