Copyright Advice

[RangerJay]

Through forums like this I've become very aware of copyright issues and want to do things right.

 

So.

 

Our mother passed away last Christmas after spending her last days and weeks in a 9-bed hospice that we literally lucked into.  We were all blown away by the personal level of care and comfort she was given.  There were no fees for her stay - not a single cent.  Much of their financial support comes from fundraising drives including an annual auction.

 

I would like to give back by contributing to their next auction.

 

Their logo is a hummingbird - meaning my choice of subjects is pretty clear - (and also pretty representative of much of what they very successfully auction off).

 

After spending huge amounts of time looking at literally thousands of hummingbird images I've landed on one that is available through one of those "royalty free" websites.  Royalty fee seems a bit of a misnomer - there is a basic fee for the original download of the image - and a much larger fee if the use of the image will include sales.  I'm very OK with the basic fee - but feel a little put off about having to pay a larger "licence" fee for sales.  Guess my own warped sense of logic tells me that a one-of-a-kind project gifted to a charitable auction does not equate to a "sale".

 

So I guess that my question is twofold:  

• if I am gifting this project to the hospice - am I responsible/accountable for what they do with it?
• and if the hospice auctions a gifted piece and a "sale licence" hasn't been purchased - then are they responsible and accountable to the copyright police?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and advice.

 

 

 

Jay

[Denny Knappen]

That is a hard one, Jay.  I would use something from the many great scroll saw designers, even some wonderful designers on this forum.

[NC Scroller]

I am not a lawyer. My take is if used the image to make a personal profit you should pay the fee. By that I mean mass produce items of that image. Since this is a one time gift you are OK.

[zimmerstutzen]

Kudos on wanting to donate for charity.   Some of us do, but certainly not enough of the public in general.    I am not aware of how those royalty free places operate.  I avoid them, except to perhaps look for some inspiration.   There are folks who can copy an image, reverse it, thin a part here and expand a part there, without really changing the over all look and it becomes next to impossible to tell if it was copied from somewhere.     I prefer to make my own design whenever I can.    Even to the point of downloading a live picture in color and then drawing over it to establish the pattern.  Now there are programs to do that for you.  

 

In practical life.  THEY will probably never know, and for charity, probably won't care.  If THEY complain about it, a court or jury probably won't care given the circumstances.  Just to be safe, make a few minor alterations and cut the pattern.  

 

I was recently looking at silhouettes of snowmen for an idea I had.  There are literally so many similar ones, I have no idea how anyone could tell if their design was copied.  After seeing so many of the style I was interested in, , I simply did mine free hand.   Copying the very simple general style I liked and using features from several designs.  It  is mine to do with as I please. .  I will cut a hard pattern and the pattern, out of masonite, can be traced onto pieces of 2x6 be cut out  make yard decorations  . 

[RangerJay]

Thanks Denny - I'm continually humbled by the pattern making and design skills offered by many members of this forum and know that there would be help readily and freely given - but this is one project that I want to do myself.  The kind of image that I sought was a stylized and fanciful version of a hummingbird - the one chosen is already a line drawing - one that needs some tweeking for the scrollsaw - but not so much that I can't do it myself.

 

Like Scott - I am also of the opinion that if the piece is being gifted and profit are not part of the equation then how can it be called a sale.  

 

And like Zimmer - I know that if I went ahead and just did this without paying the fees that the chances of anything coming back on me or the hospice are pretty much next to zero.

 

Having said all of this I know that in the end I will pay the additional fee so there can be no question about whether the piece will be cleanly sold - but - in the absence of a legal opinion definitively saying otherwise - I know that I will feel taken advantage of - which is why I asked the question here - I know there are lots of folks who contribute their work to charitable causes - so perhaps the discussion may help some others on this forum.

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Jay

[meflick]

First, I am sorry for the loss of your mother, never an easy time but surely harder at the holidays.

 

Kudos for you for wanting to do the right thing and for giving back to the Hospice for taking such good care of your mother. Copyright laws are complicated things.  Before going the expense route and paying the larger fee (since you are willing to do so) why not reach out to the specific site and ask them.  Explain what you have explained here.  That you are planning to do a "one off" and give it to a nonprofit organization for them to auction in a charitable auction to raise funds for their organization.  You might be surprised and find out that the person/company is more then willing to allow you to do that without buying a "commercial" license.  It doesn't hurt to ask - they can simply tell you no and then you can decide to pay the full commercial price or find another design that would allow you to do what you want for minimal fee.  Good luck on your decision and look forward to seeing what you make.

[Lucky2]

Thanks Melanie, you just saved me a lot of typing. Your answer is the same as the one I was going to type, I agree, the safest thing to do is to get on touch with the pattern seller/owner.

Len

[amazingkevin]

Through forums like this I've become very aware of copyright issues and want to do things right.

 

So.

 

Our mother passed away last Christmas after spending her last days and weeks in a 9-bed hospice that we literally lucked into.  We were all blown away by the personal level of care and comfort she was given.  There were no fees for her stay - not a single cent.  Much of their financial support comes from fundraising drives including an annual auction.

 

I would like to give back by contributing to their next auction.

 

Their logo is a hummingbird - meaning my choice of subjects is pretty clear - (and also pretty representative of much of what they very successfully auction off).

 

After spending huge amounts of time looking at literally thousands of hummingbird images I've landed on one that is available through one of those "royalty free" websites.  Royalty fee seems a bit of a misnomer - there is a basic fee for the original download of the image - and a much larger fee if the use of the image will include sales.  I'm very OK with the basic fee - but feel a little put off about having to pay a larger "licence" fee for sales.  Guess my own warped sense of logic tells me that a one-of-a-kind project gifted to a charitable auction does not equate to a "sale".

 

So I guess that my question is twofold:  

• if I am gifting this project to the hospice - am I responsible/accountable for what they do with it?
• and if the hospice auctions a gifted piece and a "sale licence" hasn't been purchased - then are they responsible and accountable to the copyright police?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and advice.

 

 

 

Jay

Interesting

[heppnerguy]

It probably is always the right thing to do by contacting the site and asking their permission. However, I also agree that using a pattern of idea for a donation is really not 'selling' the item you make. It will also only be bid on and seen by a small group of people who are really donating to the cause and not really after a good art sale item. The item bid for is usually bid more than the person who won the bid would probably spend for the item somewhere else. Prove being if you had the same item on your wed site for. say, $80 and the bid was over $200, if the person was really only after the item they would instead buy it off your web site.  Fund raising auctions are for the benifit of the fund to which the event  was held, so people love to make a large donation to a cause they believe in and also walk away with some kind of a reminder. My take would be, I would make the item, donate it and feel good about contributing something that finanacially benefited me not at all. Helping those that have helped you is mearly a way to thank them for what they have have done for you, or others.

 

Dick

heppnerguy

[RangerJay]

Thanks - I did speak to staff on the website (twice) in efforts to convince them that this was a "one-off" piece of work and didn't really constitute a sale - no success yet - but that doesn't mean I'm done .... at least for the moment I have time on my hands ..... with current projects on the go I don't expect to be in a position to start cutting till sometime later in the fall.

 

But - as said earlier - if I do end up having to pay the extra fee it is only an irritant - it is a meaningful project done for a meaningful purpose - the extra cost for the image I want becomes just part of the price of getting it done.

 

Once finished I will definitely post pictures.

 

Thanks again,

 

 

 

Jay

[orangeman]

My advice is to look around for another image with reasonable fees.

 

I recently bought an image of a triggerfish for $10. The license gives me the right to make all the triggerfish puzzles I want to for sale.

 

Fox Chapel published a humminbird puzzle pattern  some time ago. That might serve your purpose.

[Rolf]

I am with Brian on this I would look for some other image to work with. 

[meflick]

Thanks - I did speak to staff on the website (twice) in efforts to convince them that this was a "one-off" piece of work and didn't really constitute a sale - no success yet - but that doesn't mean I'm done .... at least for the moment I have time on my hands ..... with current projects on the go I don't expect to be in a position to start cutting till sometime later in the fall.

 

But - as said earlier - if I do end up having to pay the extra fee it is only an irritant - it is a meaningful project done for a meaningful purpose - the extra cost for the image I want becomes just part of the price of getting it done.

 

Once finished I will definitely post pictures.

 

Thanks again,

 

 

 

Jay

So, you did the right thing and they don't "see" it as we do and are trying to get you to pay the bigger price.  Since you say you have some time on your hands before you need to start this project I would do as others have noted and look around for some other images that might work as good or better for your needs. If you don't find one you like better, then you can go back and buy this one.  Also gives them time to "rethink" their position. If you tell them thanks but no thanks I will try something else they may decide that a few dollars is better then no dollars.   You can also tell them that you will note in the official information where the pattern came from to give them a nod which could lead to more business at some point for them.

[Sorcier]

I am sorry, but I look at this as a "sale" of the item.  You are making the item with the specific intent that it be offered for sale at an auction.  The fact that you personally will not profit from the sale is beside the point.  If you were intending to make the item, sell it, then donate the proceeds to the hospice, I think you would have to agree that would be a sale.  Making it for them to hang on the wall would not be a sale, but you are making it for the sole purpose of generating money.

 

Ward

(yes, I am a lawyer)

[Debi Shipman]

I also may as well throw my 1 cent worth in.  My brother-in-law is a lawyer and he said basically the same thing Ward said.  He did add that altering the pattern will still get you into trouble if they can prove enough points are the same.  In order for it to not be considered an infringement, the pattern would have to be altered by a certain percentage.  He didn't know exactly what the percentage was, but thought it was like 30-40% overall.

[RangerJay]

I am sorry, but I look at this as a "sale" of the item.  You are making the item with the specific intent that it be offered for sale at an auction.  The fact that you personally will not profit from the sale is beside the point.  If you were intending to make the item, sell it, then donate the proceeds to the hospice, I think you would have to agree that would be a sale.  Making it for them to hang on the wall would not be a sale, but you are making it for the sole purpose of generating money.

 

Ward

(yes, I am a lawyer)

 

 

I also may as well throw my 1 cent worth in.  My brother-in-law is a lawyer and he said basically the same thing Ward said.  He did add that altering the pattern will still get you into trouble if they can prove enough points are the same.  In order for it to not be considered an infringement, the pattern would have to be altered by a certain percentage.  He didn't know exactly what the percentage was, but thought it was like 30-40% overall.

 

Always great to hear from those who actually know - even if the news isn't quite what you might not have wanted to hear.

 

Thanks,

 

 

Jay

[RangerJay]

The price of the licence to be able to have this single piece auctioned does seem unreasonably high when looked at in isolation - but if I look at it in a larger context then it is not only cheap - it becomes insignificant (at least to me).

 

That context has to do with the services provided to out mother in her last days.

 

The fact that there were no fees for this hospice seemed unbelievable - it was clear the services being provided, if we had to pay for them ourselves, would have easily been in the 10's of thousands of dollars, for the time our mother was there - in truth - what they did for her and for us was priceless - she was treated like royalty ..... we would never have been able to afford what they gave her - if our contribution to their auction can help them in their fundraising then this makes the cost of the image licence to us peanuts.

 

I will continue to look through hummingbird images right up till it is time to start cutting - but in absence of a better image turning up then the licence to sell the one that now seems to stand above the rest will be purchased.

 

Now.

 

I'm getting nervous .....

 

Having brought the attention of the forum to this particular project - I sure as heck hope it turns out ......

 

Thanks,

 

 

 

Jay

[Sorcier]

Jay, if you go with the license and the item seems to be a hit, you can then make more for them to offer at future dates to raise money.

 

Just a thought,

Ward