Copyright of Car and Truck items??

[kmmcrafts]

Okay, so if I was to make different types of car clocks, portraits etc. would the car make and model be copyright infringement?

 

Reason I ask is.. I sell my pieces on etsy and well... several other places online.. and the other day I bought some graphics intended to be used for CNC metal signs ect.. anyway I took the image and added a base to the bottom and made a place to insert a clock.. The item was of a Dodge truck.. I put in my listing title and description the dodge diesel name.. they contact etsy and my listing was removed.. I am okay with that I didn't realize ( my mistake ) that was a trademark name or whatever.. I do my best not to do that or put anything up for sale that would be / could be if I know it that is.. LOL

 

Anyway in light of the situation I asked a message in the etsy forums since I have a few other car themed items listed there.. I asked if I had portraits or clocks etc of cars such as Chevy Camaro or Ford Mustangs if those items would be considered a violation.. Some replies said yes.. if I used the names " Chevy Camaro " etc.. as the names are trademarked but I would be okay if I just said Car picture or clock.. Then others comment that even doing a car that resembles the car type is considered a violation.. REALLY?

 

I don't care as it's not a life or death issue.. and there are other things I can make and sell.. but I am curious about your thoughts on this.. because quite frankly.. we have a lot of car patterns here on these pattern sites.. are all those considered copyright violation then? Some of those patterns I could understand such as the General Lee or the Starsky and Hutch Torino or back to the future Delorian.. but just any car in general? I don't know.. I have pulled my other listings of questionable things until I can sort it out.. but seems pretty extreme.. I was also told a few years ago ( when I asked in the forums ) that doing portraits of celebs etc is also a violation..

 

Sort of makes one think.. well what can one make and sell.. seems like everything has some sort of copyright or trademark..

 

What is your take on the cars being a violation? While I realize that the people replying on etsy  and most likely here are not copyright Lawyers. I am still interested in your thoughts.. I intend to just take down any questionable items from my online stores.. not worth the problems to me.. 

 

Thanks,

Kevin    

[Travis]

There is a whole lot of gray area in that discussion.  

 

I think if they REALLY want to press the issue, a picture of a car could be in violation of copyright/trademark issues.  Especially if  you can look at the vehicle and immediately recognize what it is.  A Ferrari has a very distinctive look, and I bet they have a trademark on it.  That seems to be a bit extreme, however.  

 

I would stay away from cutting their logos or name, like the Mustang horse & Chevrolet bow tie, or the words "Ford Mustang" & "Chevy Camero."  I can see that being flagged for copyright.  We do that here at SSV too.  We allow portraits of cars, but no logos or names in the design.

 

Celebrities portraits could fall into that category too.  When you get famous enough, your likeness becomes a trademark.  Carrie Fisher was not in the Rogue One movie just released.  But you can bet they paid her a pretty penny to license her likeness in those few shots.  I know there are certain groups that are pretty aggressive about protecting those rights.  Dale Earnhardt Jr & Sr. comes to mind.  So I'd stay away from portraits where an industry has propped themselves up on or very brand oriented.

[Dan]

I agree with Travis. You can do a fretwork of a car and it will be hard for someone to definitely say that is a Camano, unless you use that name in the title. The same for celebrities. For all I know you made a pattern of you sister.

[orangeman]

A few years a go I saw a pattern for a motorcycle which was featured in a magazine. Sure looked like a Harley to me and often wondered how the magazine got away with that. I sell the motorcycle at craft shows and folks buy it because it looks like a Harley.

 

As an aside I spoke with an attorney some time ago and she said even the sound of the Harley is copyrighted/patented - can't remember which. I was amazed at that.

[JimErn]

The Harley sound comes from a full 720 degree crank rotation cycle required for both cylinders to fire in a 45 degree v-twin motor.  If I am not mistaken that 720 degree full cycle is what is patented.

 

Copy right is so nebulous as to be ludicrous.  When my daughter started her educational consulting company she wanted a logo.  Playing around in photoshop I had a stack of books and was trying different things.  I have no idea what I did but they ended up looking like a tornado so we went with it.  The copyright office refused it (a stack of books could not be copyrighted), until I could describe how I went from a stack to a tornado, I made up some steps on how I did it - approved.

 

I help users in the Quickbooks community a lot, and I was surprised one day to see one of intut's branded help articles a copy and paste from an answer I had provided in the community - I brought it up saying the least they could do was mention me in a foot note, after all I had come up with the procedure.  Very politely the moderator pointed out the one sentence in the 500 or so in the terms of use I had agreed to that said that anything I wrote, posted, to include graphics I created belonged to intuit as of the date I posted.  That is more common than you would think.

 

I operate very simply, unless it is trademarked, I usually go for it.  If I get a cease and desist letter, I respond asking why they do not want free advertising.  The second cease and desist letter I stop.

[kmmcrafts]

Thanks to all of you for your comments.. this subject really interest me for some reason, LOL

 

While like many have said.. I could probably sell them with no issues at all as long as there is no mention of the make / model.. that said.. I will just make other things.. not looking to be greedy off from some others design.. which the shape of the car is a design of someones.. I highly doubt one would go after me for these.. heck even Sue Mey has a clock pattern named Harley Rider with a motorcycle.. doesn't me she is right in naming it that just means maybe she hasn't been caught yet, LOL In going through the patterns here in the transportation section there are tons of patterns with the car make or model too some even have a logo in it.. I am sure it's hard to keep up with it all.. just the same for the copyright holders.. while some seek out sites... they can't possibly hit every site every day.. which is why some can go years without having any issues.. such as me.. I have sold car items online now for 6-10 years.. and used the car make and model in my title and description etc..  I probably could have continued on without any issues.. the point is.. it is the car manufactures design for the body style etc.. and truly isn't fair to them.. while maybe they don't care.. I don't know.. either way.. it's making money or using their design to make money.. and is wrong I suppose.. I've always been one to try to always do the right thing..

 

Thanks again for commenting.. will be watching to see if any other discussions are commented,

Kevin      

[zimmerstutzen]

You can use a trademark or copyright under some circumstances and not other.l  There is something called "fair use" and even specialized copyright attorney's argue about what it means.   If you are doing something that holds the brand or trademark up to a joke or ridicule, that is one type of fair use.  For instance those bummper stickers that talk about" Ford country, on a quiet night you can hear a chevy rust."  Or "Fix Or Repair Daily"   Or "DOGdge"    are fair use.  There are some other types of fair use, but I can't explain them.  I took one copyright class in Law school and decided the field was so intentionally obsfucated, that I wanted nothing to do with it.   It is sort of like zoning law.  The words are all in English, but the special technical meanings and the combinations of words into zoning phrase jargon require a language translator to figure out.  And I thoroughly believe that zoning officers intentionally do this so they can be so condescending to everyone else.   The same is true of copyright rules.  There is a cut off year in the past that anything older is supposed to be in the public domain.  Except that even 150 years ago, certain trademarks are still protected.  So If you were to do a fret work of a 1876 Winchester Ad for their then new lever action rifle, copied from an old period magazine, the Winchester Trademark might still be protected.

 

I have a collection of old catalogs and magazines that I use for some inspiration and copying.  For instance American Field Magazine from the beginning about 1870 until 1920 is available on a DVD, for a reasonable cost, as is Woods and Stream magazine.   Both are ripe with old advertising for sporting goods, and many of the companies are long defunct, so copy away.   There were thousands of old classic magazines that have folded many decades ago and the covers are truly great stuff for art and inspiration.  No one would care if you made a fret work Stanley Steamer, Cord, Nash, Auburn, LaSalle or a Hudson.  

Edited January 26, 2017 by zimmerstutzen

[kmmcrafts]

You can use a trademark or copyright under some circumstances and not other.l  There is something called "fair use" and even specialized copyright attorney's argue about what it means.   If you are doing something that holds the brand or trademark up to a joke or ridicule, that is one type of fair use.  For instance those bummper stickers that talk about" Ford country, on a quiet night you can hear a chevy rust."  Or "Fix Or Repair Daily"   Or "DOGdge"    are fair use.  There are some other types of fair use, but I can't explain them.  I took one copyright class in Law school and decided the field was so intentionally obsfucated, that I wanted nothing to do with it.   It is sort of like zoning law.  The words are all in English, but the special technical meanings and the combinations of words into zoning phrase jargon require a language translator to figure out.  And I thoroughly believe that zoning officers intentionally do this so they can be so condescending to everyone else.   The same is true of copyright rules.  There is a cut off year in the past that anything older is supposed to be in the public domain.  Except that even 150 years ago, certain trademarks are still protected.  So If you were to do a fret work of a 1876 Winchester Ad for their then new lever action rifle, copied from an old period magazine, the Winchester Trademark might still be protected.

 

I have a collection of old catalogs and magazines that I use for some inspiration and copying.  For instance American Field Magazine from the beginning about 1870 until 1920 is available on a DVD, for a reasonable cost, as is Woods and Stream magazine.   Both are ripe with old advertising for sporting goods, and many of the companies are long defunct, so copy away.   There were thousands of old classic magazines that have folded many decades ago and the covers are truly great stuff for art and inspiration.  No one would care if you made a fret work Stanley Steamer, Cord, Nash, Auburn, LaSalle or a Hudson.  

Very interesting information, and yes.. the laws are very confusing to say the least.. I believe most people are either the type that doesn't know much about the copyright or trademark laws.. or the type that know a little but don't want to speak up in fear of giving the wrong or mis-leading info.. I really wish I knew more about what we can or cannot make and sell.. but it's really so confusing and complex that it really is best to just stay clear of any items that even have a slight possibility.. 

 

I am curious how the copyright / trademark holders handle these situations in general.. I know of a few cases of online sellers from venues ( etsy ebay ect ) that the company contacted the said vendor and the vendor removed the listing and gave out a warning message to the seller.. I would hope this is how it is handled.. after all.. many sellers just don't realize they are breaking the law.. then again.. many do and just don't care.. Now... if the seller just moves the items to another venue or relist the item sort of ignoring the law and are caught again.. then maybe the holder would go after them for a law suit..

 

I guess what I am saying is.. the language of these laws have so much jargon that most all the average sellers trying to make a little extra money doesn't understand them.. I would hope a warning is all these people would get.. but if there is a second offence then they would file a suit..? anyone know how that part of it works?

 

Thanks again for all the replies,

Kevin 

[CharleyL]

My understanding of copywrite laws tells me not to use any product name or manufacturer name in anything that I make, and not to make images of products without making some small changes in my design that make them different in some way from a photograph or image of the, sort of, copied item.  For a car, changing the headlights or slightly elongating the hood lines would be an easy change. It would still look like that car, but would be different enough to be considered an artist rendering of a similar car, and not be a violation of the copywrite, although how much needs to be changed to make a court happy might be a little more. A patented product can also be copied for use by the one making the copy and many copies of it can be made, if it is never sold. A company that I once worked for made copies of a certain piece of test equipment for use within the company and the patent owner could never collect from them, because they never sold the equipment. 

 

If you take your product off the market when you receive one of those cease orders, you can send a letter back and try to argue on how much different it is  than their company name or product image. You might easily win if you can show the differences, but it's usually not worth the hassle. Just keep the item for your personal use and send them an apology note. Artists are forever copying things in our everyday lives, but changing their image enough to make it just different enough to get past these laws. It's usually referred to as "artist's license" and they get away with it all the time.

 

Charley

[amazingkevin]

ugg.

[zimmerstutzen]

copies of a certain piece of test equipment for use within the company and the patent owner could never collect from them, because they never sold the equipment. ????  Of course he could sue.  He was out the royalty he would have earned if the company purchased the ones made under his patent.      

 

Things get so convoluted.  Remember the movie "It's a Wonderful Life"  The movie copyright expired without being renewed, so tv stations were showing it 20 times a week during the holidays.  However, the script copyright had been renewed and the script owner sued and collected.  The result is that the movie is in the public domain, but the script is not and royalties still need to be paid every time the movie is shown.        It is truly a mad mad world.

 

When I took the law school class many years ago, Stiffel lamp company was filing copyrights on it's finished lamps, claiming the design was not only trademarked, but copyrighted.  That was a new twist on the law in the 1970.s and I don't know if their attempts to protect their designs held up or not.    It went way beyond the normal thoughts about both trademark and copyright.

 

Then we have people who make up alternative lyrics for popular copyrighted songs.  The song is copyrighted, but it may be a fair use of the song, but then the alternative lyrics may be copyrighted in their own right.  Incredibly complicated.       A country group recently released their version of Joy to the World to a very different tune.  I immediately recognized it as an old tune Elvis had a hit with.    The old country song, You're the reason God Made Oklahoma was a pirated arrangement of the Blue Grass tune Rocky Top.  The Beatles song My Sweet Lord was a tune copied from the 50's He's so fine.   There is a pop song right now that the tune was copied from a 1050's hit and I just can't remember the name right now.   The tune The Lion sleeps tonight, was copied from the Weaver's early 1950's Wimoweh song, which was copied from a 1939 Zulu folk song called Mbube, by Solomon Linda and the Evening Birds. An alternative copy of that Zulu Folk song appeared in the first Boy scout manual as a marching song.