Sand paper & finishing question

[UncleApple]

I'd never heard this one before so I thought I'd ask.  Recently I was told that if I use 320-400 grit sandpaper to finish my project prior to oiling or staining that the treatment would adhere to the wood as well.  According to this individual, I'm supposed to apply my finish after using a lower grit paper, like 220.  Does this make sense to anyone?  I typically use multiple treatments of danish oil, so I'd think I'd want to have it fully sanded to a nice finish before application. Thoughts?

[Scrolling Steve]

Jeff, it will be interesting to read the responses to your question.....I use a progression of 80, 150, 220 as a rule ...I have some 320 but seldom use it......like a lot of other things in scrolling it is what works for you.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Scrolling Steve

[UncleApple]

Jeff, it will be interesting to read the responses to your question.....I use a progression of 80, 150, 220 as a rule ...I have some 320 but seldom use it......like a lot of other tings in scrolling it is what works for you.

I too use a progression of grits as needed.  If the project I am working on is fairly smooth and blemish-free to begin with, I start with 220 then 320, and finally 400.  Otherwise I start with a lower grit.  As I'm sure you already know, the wood type is a big consideration too.

[Rolf]

This is an excellent book on wood finishing by Teri Masaschi 

http://foxchapelpublishing.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?fox_attr_author=1175&q=wood+finishing

 

Teri says 180 grit on hardwood is adequate and 220 on softwood. 

 

 

There are lots of opinions and variables  on this subject. The type of wood has lots to do with it.  I don't know about adherence but certainly penetration is affected.

I did a small maple vase on the lathe, sanded it to perfection 400 grit. It was almost burnished. My intent was to stain it a deep blue with Saman stain. It did not penetrate at all. 

I talked to my turning friends and they said I over sanded it and should have stopped at 220. I never did go back to it so I am not sure if the 220 would be better.

[UncleApple]

This is an excellent book on wood finishing by Teri Masaschi 

http://foxchapelpublishing.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?fox_attr_author=1175&q=wood+finishing

 

Teri says 180 grit on hardwood is adequate and 220 on softwood. 

 

 

There are lots of opinions and variables  on this subject. The type of wood has lots to do with it.  I don't know about adherence but certainly penetration is affected.

I did a small maple vase on the lathe, sanded it to perfection 400 grit. It was almost burnished. My intent was to stain it a deep blue with Saman stain. It did not penetrate at all. 

I talked to my turning friends and they said I over sanded it and should have stopped at 220. I never did go back to it so I am not sure if the 220 would be better.

Thanks for info!  I'll be sure to look into the book you referenced.

[dgman]

220 is as high as I go. Anything above that is just polishing the wood, which is ok if that is what you are going for.

Personally, I don't like a shiny finish on my scroll saw projects. I go for a medium luster. So, 220 is as far as I go.

It is true that you will get lest penetration of oil the higher grit you go.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I too go as high as 220 and on rare occassions I will take a piece to 600. The oil will always soak into wood no matter what grit you sand to. But what you are doing with higher grits is closing the pores of the wood so allowing the oil to penetrate will take longer and you will not get as a deep penetration. Sometimes this is an effect people use when staining. It is a way to control the depth of stain and the color. Finishing is a science in itself if you really break it down and look at it. Many things and many ways a simple finish can change the look of a piece. 

[SCROLLSAW703]

john hit it in the nail! I use rough cut lumber for all my projects. I plane the wood to whatever thickness I want. Usually 1/2" - or less. By the time it goes thru the planer, I hit it with 150, 180, & 220. Depending on the project, once in awhile, I'll use 400.

 

Rarely do I stain my projects. I use shellac & lacquer simply because most folks around here like to see the wood grain, & the true color of the wood. If I use pine, I'll use a sealer & then stain it. 
 

But as far as your sanding question, as several have mentioned, the more you sand, the more pores in the wood you close up, & the less finish your project will take on. In essence, all you're doing is polishing the wood. 

Before I start cuttin' on a project, I do ALL the sanding, right down to the finish sanding. That way when I'm finished, I can make a quick pass over it with a palm sander & 220, & it's ready for finish. 

[amazingkevin]

john hit it in the nail! I use rough cut lumber for all my projects. I plane the wood to whatever thickness I want. Usually 1/2" - or less. By the time it goes thru the planer, I hit it with 150, 180, & 220. Depending on the project, once in awhile, I'll use 400.

 

Rarely do I stain my projects. I use shellac & lacquer simply because most folks around here like to see the wood grain, & the true color of the wood. If I use pine, I'll use a sealer & then stain it. 

 

But as far as your sanding question, as several have mentioned, the more you sand, the more pores in the wood you close up, & the less finish your project will take on. In essence, all you're doing is polishing the wood. 

Before I start cuttin' on a project, I do ALL the sanding, right down to the finish sanding. That way when I'm finished, I can make a quick pass over it with a palm sander & 220, & it's ready for finish. 

Brad ,Scrollsaw 703 does it the easy way.

[SCROLLSAW703]

easy way, kevin? what do you mean? Why complicate an easy situation? In your opinion, am I going about something wrong? I've found in the 20+ years I've been scrolling, there are many ways to approach sanding & finishing. I've found out what works for me, & stuck with it. My sincere apologies if I offended you, Sir. I didn't realize there was an "easy way."  

[hawkeye10]

easy way, kevin? what do you mean? Why complicate an easy situation? In your opinion, am I going about something wrong? I've found in the 20+ years I've been scrolling, there are many ways to approach sanding & finishing. I've found out what works for me, & stuck with it. My sincere apologies if I offended you, Sir. I didn't realize there was an "easy way."  

I think Kevin just meant you are smart and do things the easy way. Like they always said at work "Work smarter not harder". I ALWAYS tried to follow that rule.  

[SCROLLSAW703]

thank you hawkeye. I try to keep things as simple as possible. I just had major back surgery for the second time. I've got my shop set up so I can sit down when I need to, & my tools are within reach of the sit down spot. And it's easier to keep clean. 

[Ron Johnson]

I'm very particular when it comes to finishing. Most of my sanding is done with cabinet scrapers and depending what I'm working on I'll follow through as high as a 5 micron grit.

Most will start with a 100 and follow through with 220, 320,400 and most times this is satisfactory prior to applying the finish. Others like myself will go further. So when it comes to sanding it depends on what you're satisfied with. There are no rules.

[lawson56]

220 is the limit for me. 

[Bill WIlson]

I rarely sand beyond 180 grit, sometimes 220.  I used to go higher, but realized that when using any film finish, it was how the final finish was rubbed out that determined how smooth the piece felt to the touch.  One could sand the raw wood up through 800 grit, but the surface would still feel rough after the first coat or two of finish.  This was caused by the finish itself, not the wood, so my focus shifted to making sure the finish was rubbed out smooth before the final coat.  I found that sanding beyond 180 grit didn't make much difference, as long as the wood was well sanded, meaning all the defects and sanding scratches from the coarser grits were removed.

 

I'll add my endorsement for 2 more finishing books;

 

http://www.rockler.com/understanding-wood-finishing-book  

By Bob Flexner

 

http://www.tauntonstore.com/tauntons-complete-illustrated-guide-to-finishing-jeff-jewitt-070712.html

 

By Jeff Jewitt

 

Both of these authors and books are very highly regarded within the woodworking community.   Both say that, generally speaking, sanding beyond 220 grit produces diminishing returns for the time & effort required.

[UncleApple]

All of these great posts are why I joined this community!  Thank you all so much!

[tomsteve]

cant believe how much time I cut by not getting crazy with sanding. skip grit sanding and stopping at 220 cut my pre finish work down greatly.

and the results are just as good as using every grit.

and no more going finer than 220 after reading some of jeff jewitts articles in some mags and having pictures to prove finer than 220 is rather pointless.

[stoney]

They used to say sand to 150 grit for good first coat paint adhesion but that may not be true anymore as I'm sure paint adhesion qualities have probably improved over time.   Like John said an oil will penetrate even sanding at a higher grit but as you go up in grit so goes the time involved for good penetration.   As a general rule with most woods that I stain I sand to 150 grit then apply stain and when dry lightly sand with 180 before applying a film finish.  I generally lightly sand with 180 or 220 and apply a second coat.   Lastly I lightly hand sand with a piece of paper grocery bag which is supposed to be about 800 grit which gives a very smooth feel.   Works for me.    

Edited February 6, 2017 by stoney

[stevan]

This is such a great place. I had not even thought about sanding in this manner.