What is wrong with the engineers?

[Rolf]

A bit of a rant.

 

​It appears that my wording of the topic has offended some, that certainly was not my intent. To those that I offended I apologize.

 

 A better choice may have been What is wrong with Scroll saw Designers. Specifically entry level.  

 

I just got an e-mail from Amazon with a whole list of different scrollsaws. There isn't a single (entry level) saw under $200 that has easy bottom clamp access. I don't get it.

Evidently none of them have ever used scroll saw. Delta built saws for  under $200 with a stand and some of the best and fastest clamps ever put on a saw over 15 years ago,

You don't get into reasonable bottom clamp access until you get into the $300 dollar range.

This drives me nuts (not far to go) 

I wonder how many people gave up on the hobby due to frustration with some of these saws. 

 

I know there are lots of folks that do great cutting with some of these saws, and yes they do cut.

And I know it is not the tools that make the craftsman, but for me I want to scroll and cut wood when I have time and not spend it fiddling with blade clamps etc.

 

My message to the Saw designers "KISS"

 

End of rant

Edited February 19, 2017 by Rolf

[hawkeye10]

Rolf engineers work at being stupid sometimes. Just look at all the problems DeWalt is having with their 788's and it's mostly because of using cheap bearings, cheap grease, and not enough grease. There is some that will disagree with that statement but if you look at the post on this forum that address scroll saw problems I bet DeWalt will be at the top.

[hotshot]

I think one of the biggest problems is many brands are using the exact same chinese core design, and adding little tweaks that do nothing to address the main issue.  Having easy access to that bottom clamp, and having the actual clamp mechanism be "reachable" is my main complaint.  I wish delta would just re-release one of their earlier models to fill that market gap.  Instead, we get a zillion crappy clones:

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by hotshot

[amazingkevin]

Rolf engineers work at being stupid sometimes. Just look at all the problems DeWalt is having with their 788's and it's mostly because of using cheap bearings, cheap grease, and not enough grease. There is some that will disagree with that statement but if you look at the post on this forum that address scroll saw problems I bet DeWalt will be at the top.

I agree with you totally

[amazingkevin]

A bit of a rant.

 

I just got an e-mail from Amazon with a whole list of different scrollsaws. There isn't a single (entry level) saw under $200 that has easy bottom clamp access. I don't get it.

Evidently none of them have ever used scroll saw. Delta built saws for  under $200 with a stand and some of the best and fastest clamps ever put on a saw over 15 years ago,

You don't get into reasonable bottom clamp access until you get into the $300 dollar range.

This drives me nuts (not far to go) 

I wonder how many people gave up on the hobby due to frustration with some of these saws. 

 

I know there are lots of folks that do great cutting with some of these saws, and yes they do cut.

And I know it is not the tools that make the craftsman, but for me I want to scroll and cut wood when I have time and not spend it fiddling with blade clamps etc.

 

My message to the Saw designers "KISS"

 

End of rant

The old clamp blade holders were tops for holding spirals.I miss that.

[BeerBrewer]

This is only my opinion, but odds are the poor design was not willingly caused by engineers.  I'd be willing to bet Marketing and sales had a big hand in it.  I'm sure the engineers and designers could have (I'll bet they did) come up with a better lower blade clamp design, but it raised the price of the cost to build the saw up 65 cents.  After Marketing and sales got through adding all their margins and markups to it, they they raised the price of the saw up $35 or more!  Then I'm sure marketing and sales deemed that too expensive to sell and forced the cheaper design.  I personally worked as an engineer for over 34 and this scenario happened often.  My son, a Mechanical Engineer had the same experience.  He worked for a Bio-Medical company designing surgical instruments and stuff.  He got so upset with the folks in Marketing and Sales forcing stupid design changes that he went back to college and left the profession all together.  He is now a high school Physics teacher.  I don't mean to throw stones and Marketing and sales folks, I'm just explaining how the design process works.  Everything has a cost and trade offs have to be made. 

 

If you want to keep the costs for the saw low, you could watch craigslist for a decent used one.  They do come up from time to time.   

[stoney]

Yeah Rolf blade clamp discussions are sort of a sore spot for me as you are probably already aware.   I also have ranted about some of the just plain dumb decisions made by CEO, CFO, and bean counters at some of the manufacturers.   What the hell are they thinking when they market a scroll saw that the owner will undoubtedly get frustrated with and push in the corner and forget about?   No one will ever convince me that by running off to China they can't build and market an entry level scroll saw the beginner can actually enjoy operating that is in the $200.00 range.  They just might get a customer to come back if they also market mid or top range saws.   I think its high time one of them realize not everyone that would like to try this craft has the will or resources to step out and pay $500.00 or more for a scroll saw until they become addicted.    

Edited February 20, 2017 by stoney

[Dan]

Maybe, we as the scroll saw community, need to voice our opinion to these manufacturers. I doubt if many of the "big" manufacturers have ever used one.

[dgman]

A couple of years ago, I was doing a demo at the Woodcraft store that I teach at. The DeWalt rep was there and asked me how I liked the saw. I told him I like the saw but it does have some deficiencies and could use some improvements. He said he would like me to talk to the guy in charge of the DeWalt saw to give him some input. He took my card and said he would have him contact him.

About a month latter, I got an email from the scroll saw rep and asked what was wrong with my saw. I emailed him back stating I would like to talk to him about the saw. He never returned my emails. So I called him as he left me his phone number. Always got his voice mail but never got a a call back.

The point I am making is it is obvious that they really don't care!

[Sycamore67]

I am an engineer and never worked at being stupid. Bringing a product to market is a complicated matter and not the simple thing that some imply.

 

People seem to want everything and want to pay little for it. People want a perfect scroll saw for $200. Good Luck. If some of the people think that they can do that, I want to buy one.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Now a rant like this or a question like this has to make you think if they made a scrollsaw that cheap then they would not need the $1000 saw. Those high price saws are higher because of certain things and how do you put that into a $200 saw. Years ago the go to saw on  the market was the  the 2 speed Dremel. 

 

I went to a woodworking show today and got a chance to play with the new Jet scrollsaw. You can keep it. Talk about just copying others and not doing research into what is needed for a good saw. The blade system sucks. The arm is so heavy to lift that all day long you would look like the hulk when done. Line the blade up in that top clamp sucks. I give that saw a 1 rating only because it was quiet. I will take my RBI any day of the week. 

[Tommy Johnson]

When I started scrolling I started out on a 16" Craftsman scroll saw. That got old fast because of the blade change. I broke down and got a New RBI and have not regretted that for one minute after almost 15 years on the same saw! What;s the old saying?" YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR".

[JimErn]

I totally agree that blade clamping design and access could be better, and I am sure that some (in fact I know one) have been frustrated and pushed the saw off to the side.

 

But if you look at it from the corporation view, they are in business to add to the bottom line, and selling a starter saw with the highest margin is the way to go.  Will the customer come back and buy another?  Do you really think they care?  They know that in today's world brand loyalty is a thing of the past for the general population.  Is there anyone here who has only one brand of power tools in their shop?

 

There isn't even brand loyalty for disposable blades, many here really like the FD line, yet a recent thread about the Pegasus MG blade found some saying things like, I need to try those.

 

I'm fairly new to this hobby, I started with a Porter Cable from Home Depot and lucked into a used Ex-21 that I use now.  But I have to tell you that from a newbie point of view, the lower blade clamping design is just as awkward for me one to the other, the Ex is slightly easier, but still needs something better.

[nrscroller]

Hi all

I stated out with a benctop 2 speed scroll saw and enjoyed the hobby. I went to the Delta Q3 for a while then had problems getting parts for the blade clamps. I then bought the version 1 Dewalt and still have that. I knew I wanted a Hegner after using that for a while and I found one on craigslist that was about 6 years old but hardly used. I bought that and have never looked back. I feel the blade clamping is fine, took a while to get used to, but that is all I use. My view is if you try scrolling and like it, buy a good saw for the long haul.  I have had my used hegner for over 10 years now and it is still going strong.

nrscroller.

[hawkeye10]

I am an engineer and never worked at being stupid. Bringing a product to market is a complicated matter and not the simple thing that some imply.

 

People seem to want everything and want to pay little for it. People want a perfect scroll saw for $200. Good Luck. If some of the people think that they can do that, I want to buy one.

I agree Larry it would be nice to have a $200 scroll saw that had it all. I think most people know they aren't going to get it. The thing people really don't like is paying $500 for a scroll saw and getting junk. I am not stretching the truth either.

[Rolf]

Sycamore67,  did not mean to bash engineers in general. As I have been blessed to work with some of the most brilliant in my 35 year career in building gadgets for high energy physics research.

I know all too well how difficult it is to design and build a project at a reasonable price. 

But here is the thing, scroll saws have been around for a very long time. so the basics are there.  And there have been excellent entry level saws under $200 with great clamps.  

Being a scroller and an engineer, I am sure you would approach the design with the intend to eliminate the most frustrating aspects of you current saw. That is what good engineers do.

Pozgai designed after market clamp assemblies for a multitude of saws to make them easier to use. The best design was to add the Delta clamps to the Hawk saws. Unfortunately Delta stopped making the clamps. His modification cost me about $40 if I remember correctly.  

 

As is probably evident I am a big fan of the Hawk saws (2005 and newer not that familiar with the older ones) If they were to put all of their big saw features into a smaller saw and sell it for reasonable price they would have a real winner.

Would it hurt the sales of the big 20 and 26 inch saws, I don't know. With today's  CNC machining, making parts precisely and repeatedly is fast and cheap. But you need a good design.

 

The upper arm on my Hawk has a spring at the back, when a blade breaks or you release the upper or lower clamp the arm rises automatically and stops moving. It is nice to not have that 1" of broken blade trying to eat my fingers.

The bottom clamp is way out front under my table with nothing to get in the way of my fat fingers. 

If I win the mega lottery this weekend I will build that perfect saw and I will make it a HUGE success

OOPS I forgot about all of the stupid safety crap that has to go on that will double the cost of the saw.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Rolf

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Rolf I understand what you are saying but stop and think what you are saying. You want the very same people that make those $1000 saws to now make the same saw for $200 as an entry level saw. Doesn't make sense. Those companies are not into that stuff. They make higher end saws with better tooling, bearings, motors, blade clamping for reason. They are competing against the China made clone saws that are pressed out of these factors using CNC machines and robots. They are made to fail so you buy another. The people that make the higher end saws are people that have done the leg work and were scrollers thay took ideas of what people are looking for. But you have to pay for that now. They do not make as many as the companies that produce those $200 saws. Those companies do not care what you think. They make a product that does what it is advertised to do but nothing about how well it has to do it. 

 

Sears is a good example or even the Black and decker line. They make the hobbiest line of tools and then make the serious professional line. That is what the saws are. Hobbiests and then there are the serious line of saws. Can not have both but the mid priced saws try to do this and for the most part they accomplish this. As said you get what you pay for. People that say they use a $200 Ryobi saw for X amount of years and had no problems tells me they are not serious scrollers and you can say what you want it is just not possible. Have been doing this far too long.

 

If you hit the lottery and make those $200 saws that are as good in quality as an RBI or Hegner, you will be the talk of the town but it will be your money that you would be putting into that adventure and not other companies. Good luck please let us know when that saw hits the market place. Many people will test drive it for you.  

[jerry1939]

When I look at the amount of hours that a lot of the people on this site spend sawing, i.e. look at the displays posted of the booths at craft shows, the more I am convinced that you nice folks expect HOBBY quality saws to last as long as an automobile.  I did a Google search for "Industrial Scroll Saw" and really only found one. 

 

If you want to dance, you have to pay the piper.

 

http://96.31.44.91/p-114-polymax-8-speed-industrial-precision-scroll-saw.aspx

 

jerry

[Rolf]

Jerry labeled that way or not I think that the Hawks would stand up to a production environment. It has for me.

 

John T, I somewhat agree with you regarding say Hegner or Hawk building an high quality entry level saw. It would have to be small say 16". I would buy one in a heartbeat and if it would have been my first saw it wouldn't have been too long before I bought the 26 inch in addition. I would really like a "travel saw" that I could use when I do presentations. My big Hawk is 104 lbs. And getting hard for me to hump out of the basement.

 

I am going to buy that lottery ticket now.

[Rockytime]

I would rather have a well built single speed saw that is reliable than a cheap saw with useless gimmicks. Example: My Ryobi which had variable speed, a flex blower with a built in led which broke after a couple uses, a funky little drawer under the table which was difficult to pull out, an awkward blade changing system and a goofy hold down system. Just a poor example of a saw. Needless to say it sat under the bench for several years. After seeing a couple of  you tube videos about scrolling I became interested and hauled out the Ryobi. I immediately started researching scroll saws. Inexperienced, I purchased a like new 14" Hawk. Did not try it. Just bought it and hauled it home assuming it had a motor.Looking under it, surprise, no motor. It was made for a ShopSmith which would power it. I did motor it and still have it. It is bullet proof and far and away better than the Ryobi. I then bought a used Hawk 16" VS, an older model but in beautiful condition and nearly vibration free. For $200 what a saw! Blade change is simple and easy and works well. It does not have tension release at the front but being only 16" reaching for the rear release cam is not an inconvenience. I would purchase a new Hawk but at my age my pier will collapse before my ship comes in.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Jerry labeled that way or not I think that the Hawks would stand up to a production environment. It has for me.

 

John T, I somewhat agree with you regarding say Hegner or Hawk building an high quality entry level saw. It would have to be small say 16". I would buy one in a heartbeat and if it would have been my first saw it wouldn't have been too long before I bought the 26 inch in addition. I would really like a "travel saw" that I could use when I do presentations. My big Hawk is 104 lbs. And getting hard for me to hump out of the basement.

 

I am going to buy that lottery ticket now.

Rolf if you are doing demos any saw on the market can do that. Pick any of the $200 16" saws out there. RBI did make a 16" saw years ago and was not popular. People want bigger and 20" is a good starting point. I do not know of too many projects that need a 30" saw and to me that is a specialty saw. I bought a Hawk 26" saw because I make mirrors that are scrollsawn and I need the added room but can do it with 26" . There are ways to cut large objects on a smaller saw. If you have been scrolling for awhile you figure this out. 

[kmmcrafts]

Rolf engineers work at being stupid sometimes. Just look at all the problems DeWalt is having with their 788's and it's mostly because of using cheap bearings, cheap grease, and not enough grease. There is some that will disagree with that statement but if you look at the post on this forum that address scroll saw problems I bet DeWalt will be at the top.

 

I do agree with you BUT, one has to wonder exactly how many DeWalts are out there too.. sort of reminds me about a disagreement I had with my son a few months ago.. He was telling me that riding a motorcycle is safer or as safe as driving a car.. he said the facts are right online.. where he showed me the numbers of people killed in car wrecks vrs. motorcycle crashes.. I told him that the the motorcycle crashes are less because not everyone on the road is driving a motorcycle.. look at how many cars vrs motorcycles on the road... 

 

There are ALLOT of DeWalt scroll saws out there.. and.. there are also a lot of happy Dewalt owners that love their saws and use them for production type scroll sawing as a business..

 

I own or have owned quite a lot of different saws over the last 10-12 years since I started the hobby and now business.. many of the saws I rebuilt my self.. I think the DeWalt is probably the best overall entry level saw there is.. while I have rebuilt mine  ( only the front section ) and cleaned and regreased the rear portion.. the rear portion needs rebuilt now.. but this saw is used close to 30 - 40 hours a week since I bought it back in 2008.. while I do agree they could use a better sealed type bearing... but if they did the price would be as much or more than a Hawk or other high end saw..

 

I now have a used Hawk saw.. they are AWESOME built saws.. love my new to me Hawk... if i ever spend some money for a NEW saw again.. it will be a higher end saw than the Dewalt.. ( most likely the new BM-220 Hawk ) but also a much higher price too..

 

Like someone else posted... people are buying entry level saws and expecting to run them for ever, LOL..  

 

Just some food for thought... I would bet there are more DeWalt saws out there than most all other saws combined... for sure more DeWalts then all high end saws combined..

[Sycamore67]

What companies do is put a saw out there and see if it sells. If you good people buy a cheap saw and have problems, then you got what you paid for. The way to get companies not to make junk, it for you people not to buy it. As long as you are willing to buy cheap machines that do not work real, somebody will sell it to you.

 

Companies design machines that they can sell.

 

Do not blame someone else for buying a cheap machine....look in the mirror.

 

Me, I paid the price and have a Hegner...a fine quality piece of machinery. It may not suit some due to the way you feed blades. But there are other high quality machines you can buy.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Sycamore67

[Ron Johnson]

Fifteen years ago there were still a few quality entry level scroll saws available in the $200.00 and less price range. Today, quality has gone by the wayside. And if you want quality today expect to pay the price. Good quality tools are higher priced, but then they'll last longer with some lasting a lifetime, more enjoyable to work with, less breakdowns and etc. This can be applied to power and especially to hand tools. it's sad so many great companies and manufacturers have been forced to go cheap and many forced to close. Could it be many engineers are in the same situation. After all it's a DOG EAT DOG WORLD in order to survive.

[hawkeye10]

I do agree with you BUT, one has to wonder exactly how many DeWalts are out there too.. sort of reminds me about a disagreement I had with my son a few months ago.. He was telling me that riding a motorcycle is safer or as safe as driving a car.. he said the facts are right online.. where he showed me the numbers of people killed in car wrecks vrs. motorcycle crashes.. I told him that the the motorcycle crashes are less because not everyone on the road is driving a motorcycle.. look at how many cars vrs motorcycles on the road... 

 

There are ALLOT of DeWalt scroll saws out there.. and.. there are also a lot of happy Dewalt owners that love their saws and use them for production type scroll sawing as a business..

 

I own or have owned quite a lot of different saws over the last 10-12 years since I started the hobby and now business.. many of the saws I rebuilt my self.. I think the DeWalt is probably the best overall entry level saw there is.. while I have rebuilt mine  ( only the front section ) and cleaned and regreased the rear portion.. the rear portion needs rebuilt now.. but this saw is used close to 30 - 40 hours a week since I bought it back in 2008.. while I do agree they could use a better sealed type bearing... but if they did the price would be as much or more than a Hawk or other high end saw..

 

I now have a used Hawk saw.. they are AWESOME built saws.. love my new to me Hawk... if i ever spend some money for a NEW saw again.. it will be a higher end saw than the Dewalt.. ( most likely the new BM-220 Hawk ) but also a much higher price too..

 

Like someone else posted... people are buying entry level saws and expecting to run them for ever, LOL..  

 

Just some food for thought... I would bet there are more DeWalt saws out there than most all other saws combined... for sure more DeWalts then all high end saws combined..

Kevin there is a long video "more than one part" on You Tube showing how to repair a DW 788 saw but more important for you is they tell you where to buy quality bearings in the USA at a cheaper price than getting them from DW. Also they recommend a good grease to use.