My Take on the Seyco Saw

[Blaughn]

I did ask the Jet rep about how they got rights to the core Excalibur design, and I don't believe the answer, so I'm not going to repeat it, besides, I don't want a call from their lawyers.  I've heard at least two other versions of what is going on, but everything sounds more like gossip than anything solid.  So, I'm going to say that at this point, the truth is very elusive.  There is one truth we do know, and that is that the most recent EX design released under the Excalibur name is available under different brand names in much of the world excluding the U.S. and is produced in Taiwan by the same manufacturer that produced the Excaliburs.   Of course, Ray at Seyco knows how he was able to get his variant, so perhaps his piece of the story will surface at some point.

 

I will say this one thing, none of the stories go anything like this:  "We contacted General (or other rights holders) and secured the rights to produce and re-distribute the core EX technologies in our variant for such and such region."  Nope . . . . sigh . . . .  the stories were nothing like that at all.

 

Lucky for you, living in Canada, you have access to one of these Ex branded saws named Excelsior.  Google "Excelsior 21" and you should get a few results.  Ironically, the U.S. seems to be one of the few regions of the world that doesn't have access to a re-branded versions of the original EX design.

 

-----Randy

I worked in an industry where knock-offs happened routinely.  If you want to protect your product, you need to patent it.  The patent must be filed within 12 months of the product's first public showing.  Plan on a Minimum cost of $15,000 to file for a patent and there is no guarantee it will be granted.  Defending a patent can run hundreds of thousands of dollars at a minimum with costs soaring into the millions.

 

If you have no patented technology - there is nothing to prevent someone from copying your design exactly and marketing it under a different name.  (Your brand name cannot be used because that constitutes a counterfeit.)

 

If you want to discourage knock-offs your strategies are:

 

1.  Continuous incremental product improvements (listen to your customers).

2.  Out-of-the-box excellent quality.

3.  Drive down manufacturing costs via quality control (quality at point of manufacture - not through inspection).  Eliminate scrap and rework!!!!

4.  Outstanding customer service.  It is easier to keep your customers than it is to get new ones.

5.  Constantly and clearly express your Features and Benefits so even if you are most expensive customers understand you are the best value choice.

 

Understand that costs to bring an exact knock-off to market are extremely high.  These include molds, tools, fixtures, never-ending material sourcing and face-to-face quality control and presence at the manufacturing facility you are using.  Even then if you miss something you are faced with a massive investment that will not meet your expectations and my kill your brand with the first release.  If you follow the big 5 steps, your potential competitors will look for easier, less risky knock-offs.

[orangeman]

Randy, Thanks very much for your review. I was there on Sunday and saw your pieces displayed. Very Nice!!!!

 

Here is my take on the show:

 

The Woodworking show keeps getting smaller and smaller every year.

Picked up a  couple pieces of exotic wood for my puzzles plus some clamps and glue brushes.

Might go back again in a couple years.

 

Show was at the Cobb Galleria in Atlanta. Signage was nonexistent. Saw some folks outside a building and asked if we were in the right place. Bingo. parking was awful. When we left at 12:30 folks were circling the parking lot looking for a space.

 

Talked with Steve Good about the new Seyco srollsaw which he was demonstrating. Nice guy. Hard to keep up a conversation with him as folks came by and wanted their picture taken with him.

 

I liked the new Seyco saw and offered to buy the one he had there. No dice. He said they might be available next month; awaiting the boat from Taiwan. Not taking orders either. He didn't know if Woodcraft or Rockler would carry the saw. maybe in time. Said he thought there would be a 2 yr warranty.

 

I asked him about price and he said under a grand. I then said why should I buy the Seyco saw vs the DeWalt at much less $$.. He said durability! If you need a production scrollsaw (like I do) then he said the Seyco would hold up  better.

 

When my current DeWalt craps out I will definitely consider the new Seyco saw. I like it better than the new Jet saw. Blade changing is better on the Seyco saw.

 

Traffic wasn't bad at all. Location was at I-285/I-75/Cobb parkway.  near the new Braves stadium. The I-85 bridge disaster was not a factor.

 

bb

[hotshot]

I just received the latest edition of SSWC which had a small comment about struggles at General, and about how they can't get parts because of problems with their manufacturer.  So this is the interesting part, the same company that originally made the Excalibur is supplying Axminster, Pegas, Carbatec, and "King Tools" (Excelsior) (and probably Jet and Seyco), but not General.

 

I won't scoop the SSWC article, but I will tease it in saying that at least they pointed out one serious limitation of both the Jet and the Seyco that would give me pause if I were buying now.  The limitation on the Jet would prevent me from doing puzzle boxes, so I was a bit shocked about that one and would like someone to verify that assertion.  I could live with the Seyco limitation, but wouldn't like it.  Kudos to SSWC for using some candidness, despite the fact that both products are advertised in the mag.

 

From the remarks from General, it sounds like they are still in the game, and may eventually get their Excalibur back on the market, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  If the current factory refuses to sell to them, and only to their competitors, they may have a difficult road back.  For those formally in the market for the EX 30, you might look at the Hawk BM-26 which is about your only option for the longer saws.

Edited April 4, 2017 by hotshot

[Rolf]

Randy, Thanks for the review . I have the new Wixey angle gauges and measurement on many of my tools. They now use 3 triple a batteries that last about 2years. 

I also did read the SSWWC reviews. Both saws had limitations that would not work for me. One in wood thickness limits the other angle limits.

So for  the price range that they are in I would spend a bit more and buy another Hawk. JMO

Edited April 4, 2017 by Rolf

[amazingkevin]

Had a great time at the show, met, Steve, and saw all kinds of stuff that I've previously only seen in magazine ads.  Most of what I bought was on the $1 table in the back and the $5 table for router bits.  Pretty good deal on bits and such.

 

But, the main reason I took the trip to Atlanta was to get a first hand look at the new Seyco saw, and I'll give you a few observations here.  Even though I've purchased an Ex from Ray at Seyco, I've never been shy about being critical where I thought criticism was merited, and I'll do that justice below, even for the minor nits.

 

First off, I was relieved that the saw didn't suck.  We need a great successor to the Excalibur, and for many, perhaps the Jet fits that bill, but for those of us that like the EX top feeding/tensioning, and the solid bottom clamp, we need a saw that fits our needs as well.  Although I wasn't 100 percent pleased with what I saw, my areas of criticism were minor and wouldn't really play significantly into the usefulness of the say.  So here we go:

 

Positives:  

1.  The core of this saw is Excalibur and it feels like a direct successor.  Everything I love about the EX clamps/tensioner, raising arm, tilting arm, and the rest of the "Core" saw is the same.   These elements giving us top feeders what we want (of course you can bottom feed if you prefer)

2.  That table is huge.  If you have an Ex, and have ever worked on a large piece and struggled with the very small amount of Real Estate in the front of the blade, this saw puts as much space in front of the blades as I would find comfortable.

3.  For those that love to jack up the back of the saw, the new Seyco stand should give you that option without having to solution that yourself.  I have a picture showing that.

4.  The magnetic top cover was interesting, and I am not sure if that is a positive or not.  However, in case the user doesn't like it, they can remove it for the normal EX style experience.

5.  Digital Angle Guide:  This could be a positive or a negative.  I like to have that option, I just don't want to be reliant on batteries, and they removed the manual option.  So yeah for the digital option, and boo for removing the manual angle guide.

 

 

Marginal Negatives

1.  I really like the front geared knob on the EX and Jet that is used to change the angle of the arm.  This is gone, and you just loosen the bottom knob, and push the arm where you need it, using the angle guide to determine proper angle.  I'm sure this was more cost effective to leave out, but I would have preferred they left this alone.  This is not a deal killer, just not my preference.  If the battery in the angle finder turns out to be problematic, this becomes a much bigger problem.

2.  The table doesn't reach to the back of the saw (See pictures below).  I don't know that this would actually cause any practical issues, but it looks dumb.  So, this is not horrible, just not how I would have done it.

 

On Balance, I'm happy with what I saw.  We still have a gap in the 16" and 30" space, and I suspect we won't see that change, but time will tell.

 

 

You will need to click the images below to see full size:

 

Huge gap between table and back of saw:  IMG_0024.JPG

 

 

Missing Gear Table Tilt Mechanism:  IMG_0027.JPG

 

 

Magnetic Table Guide/Template:  IMG_0029.JPG

 

 

Large Tilt of saw possible with new stands:  IMG_0030.JPG

 

 

Celebrity Moment:   :-). This guy is about as genuine and friendly as it gets.  Steve is truly a great guy:  IMG_0031.JPG

That's a good thing being a scroller with experience  checking out this new saw .You already know what's going to work and what's not.

[David Lehner]

Great review.... I just bought an EX -30 last year and its just getting broken in.... also have an older EX-21 and 788 type 1 .... probably won't need a new saw for a while

[Mparetsky]

I won't scoop the SSWC article, but I will tease it in saying that at least they pointed out one serious limitation of both the Jet and the Seyco that would give me pause if I were buying now.  The limitation on the Jet would prevent me from doing puzzle boxes, so I was a bit shocked about that one and would like someone to verify that assertion.  I could live with the Seyco limitation, but wouldn't like it.  Kudos to SSWC for using some candidness, despite the fact that both products are advertised in the mag.

 

I finally got the most recent copy of SSWC, and I'm a little confused by their review of the Jet. Since they have repeated their comments on their website forum, I will go ahead and say that the issue they had was that it could not accommodate thicker stock. I got a Jet earlier this year (courtesy of a VERY generous mother-in-law), and I have not run into the issues that they had - once I got the top arm adjusted parallel to the table, I could fit a full two inches under the blade without problems. Just barely, but it did fit.

[Paladin]

I too have cut thicker stock (at least 1.5") on my Jet without issue.  Not sure what was going on with the saw that Bob was reviewing for the magazine.

 

Steve

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for the review Randy.

 

 

About General International:  I have spoken the several tool dealers as well as an ex-General salesman here in Ontario, who used to carry General and General International products and all of them are of the opinion that General International is now dead.  By the way, General (that is, the Canadian made line) died about three years ago.

 

One of the two main managers at General International has moved to King Canada and King Canada is now selling many tools that look just like the old General International tools.  For instance, this year I purchased an Excelsior overarm table saw guard and a King Canada mortiser and both are just like the same tools that General International used to sell.  I've also looked at all three Excelsior scroll saws and they are the same as the old Excalibur saws.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Frank Pellow