Saw Sizes??

[kmmcrafts]

Hope everyone is having a great Mothers Day weekend..

After looking through many messages on here.. and seeing discussions about the new Seyco saw and whatnot.. I kind of wondered how many of the fellow scrollers really use the full throat capacity of the saw and what size saw is it that you do use.. I bring this up because it seems the 20" range saws seem to be what most have... Maybe due to being the price for anything larger than that simply because anything larger than that gets you into the high end saws such as the Hawk and Hegners.. not sure if there is any other saws that have a larger than 20 - 22 inch throat..

I have a 20" Dewalt and the 20" Hawk 220VS... rarely do I cut anything that needs a larger throat.. in fact I think there are only 2 items I have cut that needed that much and then really didn't if i had used spirals.. Those items were a wall guitar clock ( Steve Good pattern ) and some of the themed wall crosses from Sue Mey.. I typically cut ornaments, small desk clocks, and a few signs.. 

Be nice if some of the companies would make a smaller lower cost saw.. as I am guessing that many of you probably like me and could fairly easy get by with a 16" saw.. If... Hawk made a new 16" saw.. I most likely would be all over it.. believe hegner does... however they are single speed and no quick release tension at the front of the saw.. only other option that I know of is the EX-16 which is no longer made or sold in the USA anyway..

Anyway.. just thought I would see what everyone else's thought on the smaller saws.. I have seen some awesome deals lately on used Hawk 226's.. but I don't really need that large a saw and why hog up my shop space with a huge saw that I don't really need? 

If you was in the market for a new saw and money not a big issue.. do you buy the biggest saw.. or buy what will suit your needs and spend the extra money on wood or other tools.. I mean in my opinion a really large saw to most is just wasted money and shop space.. But then.. that is just my opinion since I rarely cut anything large enough that a 14 -16 inch saw would cut.. 

 

Kevin   

 

[lawson56]

I was using a 16 inch for many yrs,but about 3 yrs ago I moved up to an 18 inch,and I Love it.It's a Porter Cable,so far so good.There has been quit a few times that I needed the extra 2 inches.When it comes time for me to buy a new saw it will be a DeWalt.

[Scrappile]

I have done several pictures that measured diagonally would not clear a 16" saw if I was restricted to flat blades.  Right now I have a "Last Supper" picture I could not do on my 22" saw without spirals.   There are many scrollers that do not and will not use spiral blades.  So in their cases a 22" is important, if they want to do the larger pictures.  Like most aspects of scrolling, I boils down to what you like and want to be able to cut.  Only an individual can decide.  As far as taking up shop space, I would guess a 22" take up very little more than a 16" in working area.  That area includes the extra space need to work a saw, not just the foot print of the saw it's self.  I could live with a smaller saw, but about 20% of what I like to do would not get done.

I also think the larger saws maintain more resale value, but that is just an opinion, I have never paid much attention to that.

Guess I'm just saying it is worth the extra space and cost to me, just to allow me not to be more restricted on what I can do.

[dgman]

The way I see it is 4" or 6" added throat size is not that much bigger than a 16" saw. The Excalibur EX 16 was the only quality 16" saw available in the United State, which is no longer available. When it was available, it was still more expensive then a DeWalt saw.

[Scrappile]

Well Hegner has a 14" single speed and a 18" VS.  Available in the US.  However as you say they are more expensive than the DeWalt.  Not sure I would like single speed.  I change speeds quite a bit.

[Jim Finn]

I have three saws.  A 20" and a 25" and a 15".  I use my 15"   $15 Jet ,29 year old ,saw the most.

[hotshot]

16 minutes ago, Jim Finn said:

I have three saws.  A 20" and a 25" and a 15".  I use my 15"   $15 Jet ,29 year old ,saw the most.

Jim, why is that?  I know you have the Hegner Polymax, the most expensive saw currently available.  Is that saw not user friendly/usable?

 

----Randy

Edited May 14, 2017 by hotshot

[Dan]

I have cut 3/4" cherry that was over 26" tall. Spirals were not an option for me. I had to cut as much as I could in one direction then remove the blade and swing the work and cut in the opposite direction. What a PITA. A deeper throat would have made it much easier. 

[rjR]

I had a 20" DeWalt 788--  it was OK -  did not stand up as I thought that it should. Previously had owned a couple of Dremels-- one hand been the "Tin Man"   2-3/4 inch blade job.  Both had stood up very well. The 2 speed was sold because of a 1500+ mile move; should NOT have- was a very good saw when sold. 

The DW was bought new in OR and the only really better thing about it was the 20'" throat. When it gave up; I bought a 18" Porter-Cable -- seems as durable as the DW; although, I have not worked it quite as hard. I have not cut as much hickory with it.

The 18" is way to small when I start making rockers. Both the Dremels used pin end blades and would let me turn them 90 degrees; made the rockers very do-able on a smaller saw.  I would love to find a reasonable priced 20" saw with the 90 degree blade feature. It would be able to cover all of my needs.

The P-C has a much better light then the DW HAD. Better blade clamps and a vacuum port too. The DW did run smoother though. The cutting capacity seems about equal and both seem to have had about the same power. My 788 was a type II and I heard the type I is a better saw.   I have debated trying to get the DW repaired at that $250 max- thing. The P-C was less than that new with a 3 year extended (even normal wear allegedly covered) warranty.  I might modify (I have looked it over and it is a possible thing to do)  the the P-C take pin end blades sideways just for the rocker cutting.

I will probably (I HOPE) be in the market for a new saw in about 3 years.

If I do ever get a new saw again;t will probably be a 20" or larger.

If anyone wants to ask me about any of them, please do, I will happily answer.

 

 

 

 

[kmmcrafts]

36 minutes ago, rjR said:

I had a 20" DeWalt 788--  it was OK -  did not stand up as I thought that it should. Previously had owned a couple of Dremels-- one hand been the "Tin Man"   2-3/4 inch blade job.  Both had stood up very well. The 2 speed was sold because of a 1500+ mile move; should NOT have- was a very good saw when sold. 

The DW was bought new in OR and the only really better thing about it was the 20'" throat. When it gave up; I bought a 18" Porter-Cable -- seems as durable as the DW; although, I have not worked it quite as hard. I have not cut as much hickory with it.

The 18" is way to small when I start making rockers. Both the Dremels used pin end blades and would let me turn them 90 degrees; made the rockers very do-able on a smaller saw.  I would love to find a reasonable priced 20" saw with the 90 degree blade feature. It would be able to cover all of my needs.

The P-C has a much better light then the DW HAD. Better blade clamps and a vacuum port too. The DW did run smoother though. The cutting capacity seems about equal and both seem to have had about the same power. My 788 was a type II and I heard the type I is a better saw.   I have debated trying to get the DW repaired at that $250 max- thing. The P-C was less than that new with a 3 year extended (even normal wear allegedly covered) warranty.  I might modify (I have looked it over and it is a possible thing to do)  the the P-C take pin end blades sideways just for the rocker cutting.

I will probably (I HOPE) be in the market for a new saw in about 3 years.

If I do ever get a new saw again;t will probably be a 20" or larger.

If anyone wants to ask me about any of them, please do, I will happily answer.

 

 

 

 

Why modify a saw and probably void the warranty? Why not just take some pliers and bend the tips of the blades so you can cut from the side rather than from front to back if you need more throat space? Something I have done in the past for certain projects.. Just a thought..

 

 

[rjR]

48 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

Why modify a saw and probably void the warranty? Why not just take some pliers and bend the tips of the blades so you can cut from the side rather than from front to back if you need more throat space? Something I have done in the past for certain projects.. Just a thought..

 

 

Well I thought abut that; but on cutting the doubles they are hard to keep the blades square to the cut anyway.

My saw will be out of warranty anyway by the time I d it. It will be just 2 hacksaw cuts and 2 grooves put in with a file on the blade clamps.

[amazingkevin]

6 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Hope everyone is having a great Mothers Day weekend..

After looking through many messages on here.. and seeing discussions about the new Seyco saw and whatnot.. I kind of wondered how many of the fellow scrollers really use the full throat capacity of the saw and what size saw is it that you do use.. I bring this up because it seems the 20" range saws seem to be what most have... Maybe due to being the price for anything larger than that simply because anything larger than that gets you into the high end saws such as the Hawk and Hegners.. not sure if there is any other saws that have a larger than 20 - 22 inch throat..

I have a 20" Dewalt and the 20" Hawk 220VS... rarely do I cut anything that needs a larger throat.. in fact I think there are only 2 items I have cut that needed that much and then really didn't if i had used spirals.. Those items were a wall guitar clock ( Steve Good pattern ) and some of the themed wall crosses from Sue Mey.. I typically cut ornaments, small desk clocks, and a few signs.. 

Be nice if some of the companies would make a smaller lower cost saw.. as I am guessing that many of you probably like me and could fairly easy get by with a 16" saw.. If... Hawk made a new 16" saw.. I most likely would be all over it.. believe hegner does... however they are single speed and no quick release tension at the front of the saw.. only other option that I know of is the EX-16 which is no longer made or sold in the USA anyway..

Anyway.. just thought I would see what everyone else's thought on the smaller saws.. I have seen some awesome deals lately on used Hawk 226's.. but I don't really need that large a saw and why hog up my shop space with a huge saw that I don't really need? 

If you was in the market for a new saw and money not a big issue.. do you buy the biggest saw.. or buy what will suit your needs and spend the extra money on wood or other tools.. I mean in my opinion a really large saw to most is just wasted money and shop space.. But then.. that is just my opinion since I rarely cut anything large enough that a 14 -16 inch saw would cut.. 

 

Kevin   

 

 a big 31"or 32" would suit me just fine .i missed a new one for 400. Didn't have the cash.spent years and years on a 16" and had a ball.Now i won't go less than a 20"

[WayneMahler]

It all depends on what you want. I have an EX-21 and do 32 inch patterns. I switch to a spiral blade and it works well for me. My opinion is what do you plan to do the most from your saw ? With time, patience and practice you can use almost any saw to accomplish the task at hand. The saw cuts the work, but you control the saw and blades. Most of my work can be done with flat blades but the larger pieces I do need spirals. Just takes some extra effort and learning to accomplish what you need for the job at hand.

[SCROLLSAW703]

Wayne hit it! I started out with a single speed 16" Craftsman that used pin blades. I finally wore out the ol' Craftsman, & bought a VS 16" CW -  Hitachi brand new. It uses pin & plain end blades. I still use it for smaller projects, even though they are said to not be worth a spit, I love mine! Would buy another one if I got the chance. The only repairs I've made to it in 20 years is a new VS & power switch.

I bought a 220VS 3 years ago. Used. Wore it out a year ago, & traded it in on a BM - 26 Hawk. Best scroll saw made! It has plenty of power to cut anything I want to. The tension release at the nose of the saw makes blade changing faster & easier. The blade adjustment on the bottom arm makes for more or less aggressive cutting is a god send! The variable speed is very accurate.

I've also got another VS 16" Craftsman on a stand I keep around for emergencies, & a teacher saw. It's a good saw for that.

None of my saws take up any more space than the other. They all have their spots in the shop, fitted around the other equipment.

Wayne is right in his words of wisdom. The first & foremost thing one should decide when buyin' a saw is what your plans are for that saw. Then make your other decisions around that. Take a good look at the blade holders & the table. Will they hold a #2/0 blade w/no issues? Is the table sizeable enough for the projects you have in mind? Is it variable speed? Will it have the power available when you require it? All these things may seem simple & ridiculous, but, when you put your new saw to the ultimate test & just one of them is missing, you're goin' to learn a few new words. Trust me. Just from experience.;)
 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

My take on it what in the world is the difference between 4". It does not take up that much more room. It is the design of the saw that takes up the room. You may only need to cut on a 16" or 18" saw but that first project that is larger than that you wish you had at least a 20" saw. I have a Hegner 18" saw. a Hawk 220 and a Hawk 226. The 220 gets the most use. But I need the 226 for mirrors that I make and a few other larger patterns and I will never ever use spiral blades. The longer you scroll the more you develop your needs. Just starting out you have no idea what your needs are. So ask that question to 100 people and you will get 100 different answers. 

[stoney]

If you can afford a 20" or larger saw that's the way I would go.  I started out with a 16" Craftsman many years ago and it done the job for then but not for now.   Like the old saying goes; you don't know what you need until you need it.    If you have been at this a while and like to try different kinds of projects you will eventually use that deeper throat,   Even if you don't and decide to sell the saw it will probably have a larger market.      

[ike]

I have a 20 in. Dewalt and i very seldom need anything that big, but why go to anything smaller and then want to make something too larger for a 16' If I could afford a larger one I would get it so I could run a bigger project if I wanted to.

IKE

[kmmcrafts]

I must be in the minority here.. but because I am a experienced sawer and have been sawing since 2005.. and have only needed the 20" saw throat a handful of times.. and even then i really didn't "NEED" it as I really could have skipped making those projects.. I guess the point I was trying to make was... why pay ( Excalibur for instance ) $300 more for a EX-21 when a Ex-16 will do most anything you would ever need.. But this is just my case.. and I was just trying to feel out how many sawers really use the full throat capacity of their saws..as I was trying to see why.. there aren't that many smaller high end saws on the market.. Hawk used to make a 16" but Bushton discontinued it.. I would be all over a new BM 16" saw with a slightly lower price.. but when looking at my needs vrs. price points.. The highest end saw that is VS and user friendly for fret work seems to be the EX-16.. and now that saw isn't even available anymore except in Canada.. so now we have only low end saws that are a 16" throat or a Hegner that isn't VS..

I will be saw shopping in the future and I already have a 20" DeWalt and a Hawk.. Probably going to be a new BM-20 Hawk.. but that 16" new name Excalibur from Canada and half the cost is really grabbing my attention.. too bad Hawk or some of the others didn't have a lower price option on a high end saw for those that really don't need it.. guess I seem to be the only one that doesn't need it though.. and if I did I will be keeping one of the two 20" saws I currently have.. 

As for the shop space.. I suppose you are all right about the footprint in the shop no really changing because most the saw stands are the same stand that will accommodate the larger saws..

 

[Jim Finn]

12 hours ago, hotshot said:

Jim, why is that?  I know you have the Hegner Polymax, the most expensive saw currently available.  Is that saw not user friendly/usable?

 

----Randy

My Hegner Polymax is the only one of my saws that can be slowed down.  I use it just for doing my inlays,  I have it set up to the angle required for that and it is user friendly.  I just do not want to re- set the angle whenever I make toys, or anything requiring a 90° cut.  I use my jet saw for that.  I have a 25" Hegner under my bench as a back up saw.  It is single speed and runs and cuts very well but the tension release on all my saws are at the rear and 25" is a long reach while seated.  When I need the extra length I do take it out and use it though.  It, and the Jet, are single speed saws.

      I spend much more time at a scroll saw making toys than I do in making inlays.  Scroll saw time, when doing inlays, is less than ten minutes.  Often just five.

     Toys, I mass produce, making fifty at a time, so I use that 15" Jet saw quite a bit.

     I would love to make more inlays but selling them is not as fast as making them is.

 

[Jim Finn]

11 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Why modify a saw and probably void the warranty? Why not just take some pliers and bend the tips of the blades so you can cut from the side rather than from front to back if you need more throat space? Something I have done in the past for certain projects.. Just a thought..

 

 

I have done this same thing. I install the saw blade  but before I  tension it I grasp the blade near the upper and lower clamps with two pairs of pliers and twist the blade 90°

[Scrappile]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

I must be in the minority here.. but because I am a experienced sawer and have been sawing since 2005.. and have only needed the 20" saw throat a handful of times.. and even then i really didn't "NEED" it as I really could have skipped making those projects.. I guess the point I was trying to make was... why pay ( Excalibur for instance ) $300 more for a EX-21 when a Ex-16 will do most anything you would ever need.. But this is just my case.. and I was just trying to feel out how many sawers really use the full throat capacity of their saws..as I was trying to see why.. there aren't that many smaller high end saws on the market.. Hawk used to make a 16" but Bushton discontinued it.. I would be all over a new BM 16" saw with a slightly lower price.. but when looking at my needs vrs. price points.. The highest end saw that is VS and user friendly for fret work seems to be the EX-16.. and now that saw isn't even available anymore except in Canada.. so now we have only low end saws that are a 16" throat or a Hegner that isn't VS..

I will be saw shopping in the future and I already have a 20" DeWalt and a Hawk.. Probably going to be a new BM-20 Hawk.. but that 16" new name Excalibur from Canada and half the cost is really grabbing my attention.. too bad Hawk or some of the others didn't have a lower price option on a high end saw for those that really don't need it.. guess I seem to be the only one that doesn't need it though.. and if I did I will be keeping one of the two 20" saws I currently have.. 

As for the shop space.. I suppose you are all right about the footprint in the shop no really changing because most the saw stands are the same stand that will accommodate the larger saws..

 

Ha, just struck me Kevin, the question why do you really need more than one saw?  Don't really need an answer, but cost wise there is a much larger difference in price between owning more than one saw then there is between 16" versa 20"+ (well in theory if you are buying new saws).   I'm just being a wize guy.  I am a more than one saw person, whether I need it or not.  Runs in my family, my wife has 4 sewing machines!!... don't ask...

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Again lets go back to what you are asking and who you are asking. It is good that over the years you found your niche and know what size saw fits your needs. But there are many many more scrollers than you. I am sure the makers of saws see what the trend is when it comes to saws and that is what they focus their price range on. Not only you. To make a smaller saw is not going to save much money if you want quality. The tooling to make those saws has to be adjusted in the price. The top makers know that the smaller saw market is well inundated with cheap Chinese saws that basically are all the same but different colors. They probably all come out of the same market and are basically throw away items. I believe the top makers see that the average saw buyer is buying a saw in the 20" range but being there is not many in the larger range they offer those too. That market is not crammed like the smaller market so their profits will justify the making. This is my thought as to why you do not see the top makers joining the crowd on smaller saws. People look at price and would buy the cheaper one before the more expensive especially if just starting out. The top saws are for the serious scrollers. Again the difference between a 20" and 16 or 18" saw is so small in the eyes of the serious scroller and they weigh in on the larger size because of future needs. Buy once. 

[JOE_M]

3 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

... that 16" new name Excalibur from Canada and half the cost is really grabbing my attention.

Not to hijack the thread, but -

Is that the Excelsior XL-21 and if so is it available in the US? I'm trying to upgrade from a Dewalt that seems to be wearing out quicker than it should.

The RBI is real nice but kinda expensive.

The new Seyco looks like it will be a little more affordable but with no history it's a gamble.

The Hegner's are so expensive the only way I'll ever get one is if someone dies and I'm the first one to the estate sale.

Are there more I'm missing? I want quiet, maximum smoothness, much less agressiveness. And maybe a stand that can tilt the saw up in back just a little. That's it - no lights, magnifiers, angle gauges, or any other fancy gizmos are needed.

And I want it in at least 18" so I can cut 24x36 posters into puzzles.

 

[Scrappile]

34 minutes ago, JOE_M said:

Not to hijack the thread, but -

Is that the Excelsior XL-21 and if so is it available in the US? I'm trying to upgrade from a Dewalt that seems to be wearing out quicker than it should.

The RBI is real nice but kinda expensive.

The new Seyco looks like it will be a little more affordable but with no history it's a gamble.

The Hegner's are so expensive the only way I'll ever get one is if someone dies and I'm the first one to the estate sale.

Are there more I'm missing? I want quiet, maximum smoothness, much less agressiveness. And maybe a stand that can tilt the saw up in back just a little. That's it - no lights, magnifiers, angle gauges, or any other fancy gizmos are needed.

And I want it in at least 18" so I can cut 24x36 posters into puzzles.

 

I

Will Seyco does have some history, they sold Excaliburs  for years, are experts with them.  The Seyco saw is an Excalibur with other features they feel customers wanted based on their years of experience.  Most important, their long earned reputation of customer service and fair dealing. 

How far are you from Bosie, Idaho?  https://boise.craigslist.org/tls/6064008001.html

I have watched this saw, been on the market for over almoset 2 months, scroll saws do not sell in the North West.  It is missing the part for attaching the dust vac by the bottom clamp and it appears to be missing the flexible end portion of the dust blower at the top clamp. Easy to replace parts.  Maybe offer him $500 see what happens.  It is 19 years old, however Hegners are the same now as then.  There is a nice Excalibur in the Portland area, they want to much for it in my opinion but it may be negotiable.  Just saying there are high end used saws in the NW.  Lots of Hawks.  May have to travel a little but road trips are fun.

[JOE_M]

12 minutes ago, Scrappile said:

How far are you from Bosie, Idaho?  https://boise.craigslist.org/tls/6064008001.html

Only 1,106 miles according to Google maps!

I'm in very southern Arizona below Tucson. There are a couple of RBI saws up in Phoenix - 3 or 4 hours depending on location. One is a 26" for $750. He never answered my email, but he keeps relisting day after day.