HAWK BM20 help

[DME72]

i bought a like new bm20 scroll saw about 4 months ago from a member on here.it is a really smooth cutting saw with little to no vibration even at top speeds. the only problem i am having is i do not like the blade clamps. i guess after cutting with my type 1 788 saw for 16 years i am used to that style clamp. has anyone else gone from using a dewalt or similar saw to cutting on a hawk scroll saw.  i know that this is a well built saw and several people on here have them. maybe it is a thing i have to get used to. any input or help would be great.

thanks

DME72

doug

[hotshot]

Doug, can you post a picture?  I thought the clamps were similar in design to the 788/ex type saws, except the clamp knob didn't have a rotating end.

Edited May 30, 2017 by hotshot

[fredfret]

I went from a DW788 to a BM26 3 years ago Just took a bout 2 weeks to get used to the diff style clamps (non-insert) I did have to adjust the set screw a little on the bottom and clean off the oil from the blades (400 Grit Paper) no other problems. What is bothering you?

Fredfret

wichita, ks

[DME72]

fredfret,

i guess i have not used the saw enough. one thing that is frustrating is the fact that the clamps have a roll pin in them and will pivot on that. it just seems alot harder to do inside cuts. for a saw that is supposed to be a production saw it does not seem real user friendly. maybe i need to use this saw more, problem is every time i try to do inside cuts i get sick of messing with the stupid blade holder that wants to pivot and i go and use my dewalt. does anyone else have or had this problem?

DME72

doug

[kmmcrafts]

I went from a 788 to a old style Hawk 220VS with the barrel clamps.. wow was that hard to get used to.. I did get more comfortable using it.. then just a couple weeks ago I picked up a new 226 ultra.. that was a little easier to get used to but yes.. any saw changes Hawk or otherwise when going from a 788.. it hard to get used to..

I wonder if you need to adjust the forward / back motion of the blade to help it slow down or speed up ( more or less aggressive cut )  the cutting..

My issue with my 220 was it cut way less aggressive and I found myself trying to push the blade through faster and bowing the blade etc..  its a much slower and less aggressive saw.. The 226 has two positions to put the lower blade clamp in.. one for more aggressive cutting.. which is the one i use on it.. like that saw very much.. but it is still an adjustment from the other saws.. and if I am in a hurry to get a order done.. then I use my old 788...but if I am just making new products etc and not really in a rush i cut on the Hawk to get used to it..

 

Kevin

 

[DME72]

kevin 

the issue is the blade holder on the top snaps in place by means of a spring steel bracket and a roll pin thru the holder. problem i am having is the top blade holder has a ton of movement front to back because of the roll pin and there are no aftermarket clamps made anymore. i just dont think i can adjust to this style of blade holders. i am disappointed  in the fact that for a  $1200 saw you would they would have alot better blade holders. i can also say that it came with two full sets of extra blade holders and the saw had less than 10 hours on it when i got it. i have put about 2 hours on it or so.just cant get used to the stupid blade holders. really considering selling the saw because every time i try to use it i get frustrated with the dumb blade holders and then go use my 788. any one else have any issues or dislikes with the hawk? not trying to bash the hawk line of products i just dont think they are all that great like they make them sound.

doug

[stoney]

1 hour ago, DME72 said:

kevin 

the issue is the blade holder on the top snaps in place by means of a spring steel bracket and a roll pin thru the holder. problem i am having is the top blade holder has a ton of movement front to back because of the roll pin and there are no aftermarket clamps made anymore. i just dont think i can adjust to this style of blade holders. i am disappointed  in the fact that for a  $1200 saw you would they would have alot better blade holders. i can also say that it came with two full sets of extra blade holders and the saw had less than 10 hours on it when i got it. i have put about 2 hours on it or so.just cant get used to the stupid blade holders. really considering selling the saw because every time i try to use it i get frustrated with the dumb blade holders and then go use my 788. any one else have any issues or dislikes with the hawk? not trying to bash the hawk line of products i just dont think they are all that great like they make them sound.

doug

And I thought I had the only higher end saw with not all that user friendly blade clamp system.   What is it with these people? Quality user friendly blade clamps isn't rocket science.   Delta used to have the greatest blade clamps I ever used and then they discontinued them.   What the hell !!!!!!!! 

[tonylumps]

I said it once I will say it again.Pick any Three members of this forum to design a Scrollsaw And Name it the SSV Custom Scrollsaw and within a year it will be the only Scrollsaw sold the world.

[kmmcrafts]

Yeah, my saw is on that roll pin too.. and the blade flexes to the back a whole lot.. unlike the DeWalts that have a very firm blade once mounted up against the back of the holders and tighten down.. The older Deltas that I have used in the past had the roll pin deal like the Hawks.. Honestly I feel it's a better design because it helps prevent from over pushing on the blade.. really hard to get used to though.. For what its worth.. the older hawk's lower barrel clamp also can pivot some for you get it from both ends of the blade.. I always felt like I had to really push the blade through the wood to get it to cut.. but once I relaxed and just let the blade do it'd job the saw cuts real nice.. just seems real slow at doing it though LOL..

Kevin

[kmmcrafts]

1 minute ago, tonylumps said:

I said it once I will say it again.Pick any Three members of this forum to design a Scrollsaw And Name it the SSV Custom Scrollsaw and within a year it will be the only Scrollsaw sold the world.

I highly doubt that simply because every one has a different cutting style.. not everyone cut's thin / thick wood etc. etc... If I was to cut only 1/8 - 1/4 stock,, I love my old Hawk.. as it's not so aggressive to cut that thin wood.. But if I cut 1/2 - 1" then I like cutting at max speed on my aggressive cutting DeWalt best.. many people don't like the aggressive cut that the DeWalts have.. some have went to great lengths to modifies there DeWalts so they wouldn't cut so aggressively.. But anyway.. like I said.. everyone has their style of cutting.. which is why you see so many people that like certain types of saws better than others.. I like my Hawk saws for certain styles of cutting.. while I like My old DeWalt for other types of work..

just like the quick set blade clamps from Delta saws.. Many people rave over them and put them on other types of saws..myself.. I couldn't get used to them on the two different Deltas I have ( SS350LS and 40-530 ).. I always would get them too tight or too loose.. Those two saws i move out of my shop and put into my storage shed.. ended up selling one a couple years ago.. 

So I doubt someone could make one perfect saw that everyone would rave over.. but I do understand what you mean.. it just wouldn't happen..

 

[tonylumps]

6 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I highly doubt that simply because every one has a different cutting style.. not everyone cut's thin / thick wood etc. etc... If I was to cut only 1/8 - 1/4 stock,, I love my old Hawk.. as it's not so aggressive to cut that thin wood.. But if I cut 1/2 - 1" then I like cutting at max speed on my aggressive cutting DeWalt best.. many people don't like the aggressive cut that the DeWalts have.. some have went to great lengths to modifies there DeWalts so they wouldn't cut so aggressively.. But anyway.. like I said.. everyone has their style of cutting.. which is why you see so many people that like certain types of saws better than others.. I like my Hawk saws for certain styles of cutting.. while I like My old DeWalt for other types of work..

just like the quick set blade clamps from Delta saws.. Many people rave over them and put them on other types of saws..myself.. I couldn't get used to them on the two different Deltas I have ( SS350LS and 40-530 ).. I always would get them too tight or too loose.. Those two saws i move out of my shop and put into my storage shed.. ended up selling one a couple years ago.. 

So I doubt someone could make one perfect saw that everyone would rave over.. but I do understand what you mean.. it just wouldn't happen..

 

You own 2 saws I own 2 saws. I have a Hegner 18VS and a EX .Together if you were to buy them new it would cost 2800.00.I bought both used at a very good price I enjoy cutting with both saws Me personally I use the Hegner just for 3/4 hardwood now It has a powerful motor and less moving parts. Very smooth cutting and saves wear and tear on The EX.I use the EX for everything else.I would love to melt the 2 saws together and make one saw.And i would be willing to spend top money to do it.But like you say that is no going to happen So I better keep both saws.But that one saw is what is needed for very serious Scroll cutting

[DME72]

so i am not the only one who does not really care for the hawk clamp system. 

doug

[SCROLLSAW703]

I bought a used 220VS two years ago & loved it! There was nothing I couldn't cut with that saw. From fretwork to 2 1/2" thick rough cut lumber. The blade holders do take some gettin' used to, & patience to learn the saw. Every saw has it's own build, & ya just have to take a deep breath & treat it with a little respect. It's not brain surgery, boss. It may not cut as aggressive as your shiny yeller machine, but, will do everything, & then some that yellow one can. You just have to get it figured out. go to Hawk's web page & download a manual for it by your serial number, if you didn't get one.

When I traded in my 220, I bought the BM - 26 from Hawk. Best saw on the market! I also have 2 other saws in the shop that get used for other projects. But the 26 is my work horse. Don't give up on it so easy. Keep workin' with it. You'll get it figured out, & enjoy it!

 

 

[tonylumps]

38 minutes ago, tonylumps said:

You own 2 saws I own 2 saws. I have a Hegner 18VS and a EX .Together if you were to buy them new it would cost 2800.00.I bought both used at a very good price I enjoy cutting with both saws Me personally I use the Hegner just for 3/4 hardwood now It has a powerful motor and less moving parts. Very smooth cutting and saves wear and tear on The EX.I use the EX for everything else.I would love to melt the 2 saws together and make one saw.And i would be willing to spend top money to do it.But like you say that is not going to happen So I better keep both saws.But that one saw is what is needed for very serious Scroll cutting

 

[DME72]

after only using it for a  couple of  hours  i dont really know that i want to get used to it! other than the usa made motor and electronics and being heavy built i dont think it is all it is cracked up to be. the on/off switch is not in a real handy spot,the blade holders are crap, and the more i use it the less i want to use it. this is supposed to be a enjoyable hobby, not a headache with the saw every time you have to make an inside cut! i also got the manual with it when i bought the saw. i have done what the manual says and i still dont like the clamp system. i am glad i bought this used because i would be upset if i had paid anywhere near the $1200 price tag they want for it new.

Edited May 31, 2017 by DME72
forgot to add a few sentences

[amazingkevin]

13 hours ago, DME72 said:

i bought a like new bm20 scroll saw about 4 months ago from a member on here.it is a really smooth cutting saw with little to no vibration even at top speeds. the only problem i am having is i do not like the blade clamps. i guess after cutting with my type 1 788 saw for 16 years i am used to that style clamp. has anyone else gone from using a dewalt or similar saw to cutting on a hawk scroll saw.  i know that this is a well built saw and several people on here have them. maybe it is a thing i have to get used to. any input or help would be great.

thanks

DME72

doug

hope this helps

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

12 hours ago, DME72 said:

after only using it for a  couple of  hours  i dont really know that i want to get used to it! other than the usa made motor and electronics and being heavy built i dont think it is all it is cracked up to be. the on/off switch is not in a real handy spot,the blade holders are crap, and the more i use it the less i want to use it. this is supposed to be a enjoyable hobby, not a headache with the saw every time you have to make an inside cut! i also got the manual with it when i bought the saw. i have done what the manual says and i still dont like the clamp system. i am glad i bought this used because i would be upset if i had paid anywhere near the $1200 price tag they want for it new.

I hate to read this type bashing. You started out saying you were not going to bash it and then here you are. If you do not like the saw sell it plain and simple. Whenever you buy any tool weather it is new or used you take for a test drive, just like a car. You are use to the Dewalt than why not buy another dewalt?? I have an older Hawk 220 and 226 and love them. They are not the barrel clamps but the next generation up from that. I also have a Hegner 18" and a Dewalt 788. I think the Dewalt is a pain in the neck to use with the use of the arm having to lift. The blade tightening system is not the same every time you do fret work. With the hegner and RBI it is one lever that sets the blade tension the same every time. 

 

Each of us can tell one another their love of the machine they use the most and try switching and things are different and not as smooth. Sell the saw and get back your money and buy another dewalt saw because you will need more than one. Oh yea oil and grease it to because if you do not it falls apart. China loves this part.   

[JOE_M]

He called it well built, said it had little to no vibration, and cuts real smooth - he just doesn't like the blade clamping system because he finds it a lot harder to use than the Dewalt that he's used to - he thinks a $1200 saw would have a better designed system for blade changing - and he wishes that they'd put the on/off switch somewhere else. That doesn't sound like bashing to me - it sounds like an honest review.

" Oh yea oil and grease it to because if you do not it falls apart. China loves this part." That does sound a little bashing. Maybe it wasn't, but that's the way I read it.

I have the Dewalt, I want to upgrade because I find it too aggressive and it's wearing out so I get shake/rattle at top speeds. I like the clamping system on the Dewalt. It would be hard to get used to a different system. I also have this weird thing where the more I spend on a tool, the more I expect from it. If it costs 4x as much, I want it to last 4x as much, be 4x as enjoyable and be 4x better designed. At the $1000 point for a simple scroll saw there's little wiggle room for mistakes. That's just me, others might not care as much.

There aren't any Hegners or Hawks or other high-end saws in my area to test out in person, all I have to rely on is online reviews or observations like the OP's. I'd rather read an honest negative comment than a dozen glowing reviews that gloss over or ignore every possible shortcoming.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

2 hours ago, JOE_M said:

He called it well built, said it had little to no vibration, and cuts real smooth - he just doesn't like the blade clamping system because he finds it a lot harder to use than the Dewalt that he's used to - he thinks a $1200 saw would have a better designed system for blade changing - and he wishes that they'd put the on/off switch somewhere else. That doesn't sound like bashing to me - it sounds like an honest review.

" Oh yea oil and grease it to because if you do not it falls apart. China loves this part." That does sound a little bashing. Maybe it wasn't, but that's the way I read it.

I have the Dewalt, I want to upgrade because I find it too aggressive and it's wearing out so I get shake/rattle at top speeds. I like the clamping system on the Dewalt. It would be hard to get used to a different system. I also have this weird thing where the more I spend on a tool, the more I expect from it. If it costs 4x as much, I want it to last 4x as much, be 4x as enjoyable and be 4x better designed. At the $1000 point for a simple scroll saw there's little wiggle room for mistakes. That's just me, others might not care as much.

There aren't any Hegners or Hawks or other high-end saws in my area to test out in person, all I have to rely on is online reviews or observations like the OP's. I'd rather read an honest negative comment than a dozen glowing reviews that gloss over or ignore every possible shortcoming.

 

after only using it for a  couple of  hours  i dont really know that i want to get used to it! other than the usa made motor and electronics and being heavy built i dont think it is all it is cracked up to be. the on/off switch is not in a real handy spot,the blade holders are crap, and the more i use it the less i want to use it. this is supposed to be a enjoyable hobby, not a headache with the saw every time you have to make an inside cut! i also got the manual with it when i bought the saw. i have done what the manual says and i still dont like the clamp system. i am glad i bought this used because i would be upset if i had paid anywhere near the $1200 price tag they want for it new.

 

 

I read it different. sorry. He said he wasn't going to bash it and as he added more posts it got worse. Others will find the blade system works great. It is an opinion.  $1200 saw is not a better design, Some disagree as I do. To me and I am entitled to my opinion too that sounds like bashing. As far as trying to buy a saw from reviews especially one of that much money you are kidding yourself. Would you buy a car sight unseen and no test drive?? Everyone is use to the saw they use the most and it is human nature to not like something they are not use to. If he used that saw before he used a Dewalt he may have had a different opinion. Everyone here has a opinion about the saw they use and how much they like it. As far as the switch thing goes, use a foot switch and take the switch out of the equation.  

[hotshot]

I would really really love to get my hands on one of these to see how it works .  If anyone in the middle TN area has one and would let me drop by and try their BM series, ping me.

------Randy

Edited June 1, 2017 by hotshot

[SCROLLSAW703]

22 hours ago, DME72 said:

after only using it for a  couple of  hours  i dont really know that i want to get used to it! other than the usa made motor and electronics and being heavy built i dont think it is all it is cracked up to be. the on/off switch is not in a real handy spot,the blade holders are crap, and the more i use it the less i want to use it. this is supposed to be a enjoyable hobby, not a headache with the saw every time you have to make an inside cut! i also got the manual with it when i bought the saw. i have done what the manual says and i still dont like the clamp system. i am glad i bought this used because i would be upset if i had paid anywhere near the $1200 price tag they want for it new.

Sounds to me like jt gave you the answer to your problems on a silver platter. It's your choice. It don't matter if the horse is green, red, blue, or orange. They are all designed to do the same thing, just with a few quirks. How willing are you to learn them? We've all had the same issues, in some way or another, when we've upgraded saws. That red saw you've got will do everything your dewalt will do, & more. It's just a matter of learning how to make it do it. My 220 had the same blade holder set up you've got, & it took some getting used to, but I overcome it, & in two years, wore out that used saw. Then bought the bm - 26.

But, like jt said. If the saw isn't for you, instead of complaining, sell it & buy another dewalt. Then you move on. End of story. And, we've all cut 1/8" material up to 2 1/2" or bigger. So you're not alone there. Try some patience, most never do until they've run out of other ideas.

[Rolf]

Scrollsaw703 You are right on the spot. JT I agree with you  also, especially with the foot switch. 

I tried the BM 20 at the last open house and at a couple of other shows. Absolutely loved it, There is only one thing I would change on the saw, and that is the clip material that keeps the clamps in to beryllium copper a lighter springier material, but that is just me tinkering.

My 2005 Hawk G4 26 has the same removable clamps. The attached picture is the bottom clamp. I think it is the simplest clamp and if you strip one out from being heavy handed it is easy to replace with out removing parts of the machine like you would do on a Dewalt.

I keep a bunch of pre-loaded clamps ready to go for very fast blade changes. I don't get the problem, I hold the clamp with my left hand and tighten the blade with my right.

Why is that difficult? 

KMMCrafts, Interesting comment on the Delta clamps, I think they were the best clamps ever for a scroll saw, so much so that I put them on my upper arm of the Hawk. The trick with them was not to over tighten them. I adjust mine so that there is about 1/8 " before the cam tightens, perfect grip every time. I did not change this because I don't like the Hawk clamps but for speed. One day I will do a short video on my blade changes. 

[rjweb]

Rolf are you saying that hawk clamps are like the ones on the new jet, I have gotten use to the jet clamps and like you have them loaded and ready to go, RJ

[Rolf]

No they are not like the Jets,  the clamps that come with the saw look like this Clamp, the second picture is it snapped into place under the table. The last picture is the Old Delta clamps that were offered as a modification kit from http://www.pozsgaidesigns.com/ . The kit is no longer available as Delta stopped making the clamps. It is a simple cam action clamp that does not distort the blade.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

The clamps on my Hawks are similar except the bottoms are square and not rounded. So easy to change. Do it without even looking. As others keep a few preloaded if I am doing production work but even that is not necessary. The holder for the clamp is right on the arm and is so easy to change a blade. Pop a clamp in the bottom and swing top of blade into  top clamp and swing lever over and the blade is tensioned the same every single time. No guess work as with the Dewalt because the top and bottom part of the blade hits a fixed stop. Could not be more easy in my opinion. It may take some sawing to get the hang of it but to knock it down the way the OP did is not fair. A couple hours is no test run. He is so much better selling the saw and getting a couple Dewalt saws. How many times do you read about Dewalt saws and the problems they have just on this site. Go back and read them all. It is a $500 saw and that is all. A Hawk is a $12000 saw and it is proven. He asked for help and then he snap at when he got it. That was my point about the bashing. Like it or not it is my opinion.