Hawk BM26 Review Update - by Iggy

[Iguanadon]

OK... well... it has not been a fun few days but I wanted to update those who are sitting on the edge of their seats wondering about the Hawk saw.

After 5 weeks of waiting since the order was placed, my saw arrived this past Friday July 14th.  Joy and happiness ensued.  I assembled it, which meant attaching the legs and I made a couple of very brief test cuts as it was literally over 95 degrees in my garage.  The saw was rather noisy and vibration was very noticeable.  I didn't think much of it at the time.

Saturday was farmers market and then other tasks needed to be done, so no cutting.

Sunday I was able to get out there and dedicate some time.  I did a few more test cuts, I grabbed one of my animal puzzles and cut a couple of the puzzle pieces to test and adjust the table and blade as needed.  I got it somewhat close, but the noise and vibration was really becoming more noticeable.  I double and triple checked that the legs of the saw were solid on the concrete floor in my garage, I checked for any loose parts, etc, but no luck.  I then decided to just cut outlines of some of the animal puzzles so that I could get used to the saw.  While cutting 4 outlines of animals, I snapped 5 blades.  I figured it was my fault not installing the blades correctly and needing to get used to things.  But the more I played with the speeds on the saw, the vibration and noise was beyond normal.  I'd put a piece of scrap wood on the table and watch it dance across and fall off... that's not right.

I emailed BM (Bushton Manufacturing) the maker/seller and provided a couple of videos that I recorded and asked that they call me Monday.  

Monday they called me and had me check a couple of things, but no luck.  The machine is not all that complex so there are only so many things it could be and it seemed to me it was as if the motor was out of balance or something.  

Tuesday I call to let them know the things they had me try didn't work.  They offer to send me a new motor and a couple of other parts but I tell them I'm really not interested in rebuilding their saw and we get into a bit of a "discussion" and I end up asking to simply get my money back and then into the discussion about having to crate it back up, ship it back, etc.  

During the discussion it is stated "Yeah, we've been having problems with the motors and controllers causing delays while we worked out the issues..."  Wait... what?  That's the first I'd heard about that during this entire 5 weeks and I've had half a dozen conversations during that time... So I'll admit, I got a bit pissed and said I wasn't paying squat to ship it back, etc, etc.  I was told they'd have someone call me.

I get an email from Nilus last night, the designer of the saw.  He is apologetic, offers to send me a new saw and I can then package up this one and they will have UPS pick it up.  I ask him outright if the replacement saw is likely to have the same problem now that I know of the issues they're having.  He convinces me the problem occurred during shipment.  There was no damage to the box, but if it gets jostled too much it throws the motor off he says, it rarely happens but they've had it happen a time or two.  He says he is personally going to inspect the one they'll box up for me tomorrow and make sure it's in top working order before it leaves... So after thinking I was just going to give up and stick with my Dewalt's, I decided to let them try to win me back over.

I'm guessing I'll see the new one the middle of next week and hopefully it's in top working order at which point I can provide an actual review of the saw.  Sometimes I'm too nice and give people the benefit of the doubt, but I truly want this to work out and allow BM to show me how good the Hawk saws are.  I may simply be the unlucky 1 out of 1000 that is having issues like this, so I don't want to tarnish the company or the saw in a lot of peoples minds.  Let's see how this turns out.

Cross your fingers and ask the scroll gods to be nice to me.

Iggy

Edited July 19, 2017 by Iguanadon

[JOE_M]

8 minutes ago, Iguanadon said:

if it gets jostled too much it throws the motor off

say what?

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Is it possible to jostle, I guess maybe but highly doubt it. Some times I just do not get companies that try to pull this stuff. This is not a large company and any negative feedback will hurt them. They have to know this. So I ask where is quality control???  Did they not run and test the saw before it was shipped and if they knew of a problem would you not fix it before you continue to ship. Maybe they just hope the buyer will put up with the saw and order parts and fix on their own. You are doing the right thing. I know any saw or any product for that matter can have flaws and then you have to deal with the Lemon Law but it comes down to the company and how well they handle the situation that determines their feedback. Good luck. 

[Scrappile]

Consider fingers crossed.  This is a bummer.  Personally I don't believe a little jostling around would hurt a well made saw.  I'm more inclined to suspect, they are over sold for their small business and are rushing the production, making error or something on that order.Whatever the problem I really hope it is worked out and, like you say this is a fluke. 

I do have to hand it to you loyal DeWalt guys.  I keep reading about the problems they have, but people like them and stick with them.  I had one and liked it while I had it but after replacing it with my an Excaliur, the DeWalt went to the okay saw category, the Ex was in the Better category.  But I don't think either are production saws, the production saws are the Hegner and the Hawk.  Noted for longevity and low maintenance.  I hope the Hawk does not dwindle from that standard.

Anyway, I am hoping the second saw is great and works for your needs.  Please keep us posted.

[tonylumps]

Iggy. Did he personally check the first one. You should have asked if they put a blade in the saw Because they built the saw and sold it .And if they did then they could say it was shipping damage and not guess.Now I do not think Jet will do that or a reseller of jet. Now I don't know if Ray at Seyco will do it because the Seyco saw does not have the base attached in the box. But then the Hawk is twice the money too.I like the jet.But if I can not run the saw that i purchased That is a deal breaker.I am on the fence about the Seyco because of the base But the service is good

[kmmcrafts]

This has me wondering a little.. both my Hawks I had a heck of a vibration once I got them home and set up.. Me being the mechanic trouble shooter enthusiast ( I like mechanical challenges ).. For me on both saws it was only at various speeds.. while not totally smooth like the DeWalt through the speed ranges it was there and it also made a hell of a noise when at the worst vibration speed.. sound like a motorcycle or something.. I tweeked a lot of things and never really had much success until I determined the noise seems to be coming from the arm that goes through the base and connects to the lower arm and the motor ( connecting rod ).. it was awful close to the one end of the slot cut out in the base.. I loosened the motor and moved it some ( motor mount holes are slotted on mine for some reason) and it took care of the noise and most all the vibration.. It still has a little more vibration than my DeWalt.. but really not bad unless I at a select speed.. I wonder if I need to move that motor around and find a sweet spot.. I hate to mess with it much now since I got it so close to being smooth all through the speeds..

That all said.. if this is the issue in your case.. I have a really hard time believing the motor could have moved during a shipment.. unless.. they failed to tighten the motor bolts...  even after loosening them up some on mine.. the motor wasn't really all that easy to move.. I had to loosen them up quit a lot to move it.. Also seems like they'd test ALL saws before they go out the door.. If nothing else.. test it to make sure it turns on.. While in my case.. both saws was used.. well one was new still boxed but it's a old saw (1998)..

With my issue.. I never really gave it much thought and just sort of figured it was part of setting it up.. plus.. they just wasn't brand new saws..

I sure hope they take care of the problem for you..       

[hotshot]

I think the Ex/788/Jet are in a class all their own as far as ease of use.  But the mechanics are more complicated and much more to go wrong.  Seems those that cut thicker materials are more prone wear out the 788 quicker.  But that said, I love them both, and for fretwork type work, they are a total joy.

The Hawk is a much simpler design (and Hegner is simpler yet), so they just tend to last forever.  On the Hawk, they even took this to another level by creating a insert than can be replaced in the upper arm where the wedge fits.  

I'm really rooting for Bushton as I like the small family business in concept, love American made, and all the other promising aspects of their saw, but at the end of the day, they have to earn their position of respect.  Since I now own that same saw, you can bet I'm vigorously pulling for the home team. 

But, I refuse to be "religious" about any of my saws.  I need them to stand on their own merit.

Edited July 19, 2017 by hotshot

[rjweb]

Sorry to hear of your problems with the saw, well let's see what happens with the new one. I am no expert in saws but to me that sounds like a cop out it happened in shipping, ok I will keep my fingers crossed for the new one, there is always the hegner saw, RJ

[tuner]

Keep us updated. Myself, that shipping damage I don't believe but they have to say something ! If the second saw is OK  then put it off to bad luck, sound like there service people forgot the first rule The Customer Is Always Right ( haha) but also sounds like them came around. I could say good luck but it should not be luck, you seem to have handled it with enough restraint. Your not dealing with a giant nameless company with thousands of items. 

[Iguanadon]

I appreciate the feedback, comments and thoughts.  I'm not saying I believe everything they're saying, but I simply want to give them a chance.  I like to support small businesses when I can and am willing to be patient when dealing with them.

Honestly, if they were trying to hide something, they'd have simply agreed to refund my money once I sent the saw back and they'd be done with me forever.  They'd be foolish to try to screw me over at this point and drag this out.

I have not been terribly pleasant with them during this entire thing.  I'm never crass or horrible, but I'm politely pissed and I see to it that they realize that.  ;-)  As I tell potential tenants in my rental house... "I'm the nicest guy in the world, until you screw with me.  Do not confuse my overall kindness as weakness, you will regret it."

If nothing else, you all get a front row seat for The Wild and Crazy Iggy Show...  

Edited July 19, 2017 by Iguanadon

[hotshot]

Their warranty is so iffy, you have to get things taken care of pretty quick.  I was watching the old G4 promotion video, and they were talking about their warranty at the time was like 5/6 years, and if anything happen, electric, mechanical, wearable parts, they would replace it period.  Now, that was "standing behind their saws."  Of course they went bankrupt, so there is that. . . .   The warranty they have now looks pretty freaking scary for a $1500 saw.  If they are confident in their saws, they need to stand behind them with a passable warranty, but in this area, they don't, so their new buyers just have to depend on crossed fingers.

That is the one piece of the Bushton story where I just grimace/close my eyes and try to think about the more positive things about the product and company.

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by hotshot

[tonylumps]

14 minutes ago, Iguanadon said:

I appreciate the feedback, comments and thoughts.  I'm not saying I believe everything they're saying, but I simply want to give them a chance.  I like to support small businesses when I can and am willing to be patient when dealing with them.

Honestly, if they were trying to hide something, they'd have simply agreed to refund my money once I sent the saw back and they'd be done with me forever.  They'd be foolish to try to screw me over at this point and drag this out.

I have not been terribly pleasant with them during this entire thing.  I'm never crass or horrible, but I'm politely pissed and I see to it that they realize that.  ;-)  As I tell potential tenants in my rental house... "I'm the nicest guy in the world, until you screw with me.  Do not confuse my overall kindness as weakness, you will regret it."

If nothing else, you all get a front row seat for The Wild and Crazy Iggy Show...  

Iggy that is what I tell my wife.And I look her straight in the eyes when I tell her.

Spoiler

 

 

[hawkeye10]

31 minutes ago, Iguanadon said:

I appreciate the feedback, comments and thoughts.  I'm not saying I believe everything they're saying, but I simply want to give them a chance.  I like to support small businesses when I can and am willing to be patient when dealing with them.

Honestly, if they were trying to hide something, they'd have simply agreed to refund my money once I sent the saw back and they'd be done with me forever.  They'd be foolish to try to screw me over at this point and drag this out.

I have not been terribly pleasant with them during this entire thing.  I'm never crass or horrible, but I'm politely pissed and I see to it that they realize that.  ;-)  As I tell potential tenants in my rental house... "I'm the nicest guy in the world, until you screw with me.  Do not confuse my overall kindness as weakness, you will regret it."

If nothing else, you all get a front row seat for The Wild and Crazy Iggy Show...  

Iggy I feel so bad for you. I kinda went through the same thing with my first saw but your is three times the money. One thing you might consider is letting them know all this is being discussed on this forum and if there is another SC forum you should talk about it there also.  Also maybe Travis could talk with Bushton on your behalf. On another forum I was having a problem with a piece of equipment the forum helped me out with it.

Good luck buddy.

[amazingkevin]

9 hours ago, hotshot said:

Their warranty is so iffy, you have to get things taken care of pretty quick.  I was watching the old G4 promotion video, and they were talking about their warranty at the time was like 5/6 years, and if anything happen, electric, mechanical, wearable parts, they would replace it period.  Now, that was "standing behind their saws."  Of course they went bankrupt, so there is that. . . .   The warranty they have now looks pretty freaking scary for a $1500 saw.  If they are confident in their saws, they need to stand behind them with a passable warranty, but in this area, they don't, so their new buyers just have to depend on crossed fingers.

That is the one piece of the Bushton story where I just grimace/close my eyes and try to think about the more positive things about the product and company.

 

whoa! That explains everything !

[amazingkevin]

9 hours ago, hawkeye10 said:

Iggy I feel so bad for you. I kinda went through the same thing with my first saw but your is three times the money. One thing you might consider is letting them know all this is being discussed on this forum and if there is another SC forum you should talk about it there also.  Also maybe Travis could talk with Bushton on your behalf. On another forum I was having a problem with a piece of equipment the forum helped me out with it.

Good luck buddy.

for that price i can get bu ko amount of slightly used dewalts on craigs list

[stevan]

Scroll Saw Village is probably the premier scroll saw site on the internet.  Steve Good's is "good" too but he does not get the same member interaction as we do here.  It would seem to me that a bad review on the internet's premier scroll saw site could seriously impact a small company like Bushton.

It is my hope that Bushton comes through on their promises to Iggy.  This could be serious for them.

Edited July 20, 2017 by stevan
typo correct

[Scrappile]

When Doug purchased his Seyco and wrote his thoughts, it involved good criticism and pointed out short comings for the new saw.  With Doug's permission, I sent Seyco an email with the link to the discussion on this forum.  Ray, in my opinion took it in the correct light and responded well.  Fact he even called me and Doug to discuss the issues.  I had a stake in it because I had a Seyco on order.  I think is was a good thing, I'm pretty sure the sellers don't go through the different forums to see what is being discussed about their  product. 

Might be helpful is a  concerned Hawk owner did that with this thread. 

[Iguanadon]

17 minutes ago, Scrappile said:

When Doug purchased his Seyco and wrote his thoughts, it involved good criticism and pointed out short comings for the new saw.  With Doug's permission, I sent Seyco an email with the link to the discussion on this forum.  Ray, in my opinion took it in the correct light and responded well.  Fact he even called me and Doug to discuss the issues.  I had a stake in it because I had a Seyco on order.  I think is was a good thing, I'm pretty sure the sellers don't go through the different forums to see what is being discussed about their  product. 

Might be helpful is a  concerned Hawk owner did that with this thread. 

I mentioned the fact that I have several folks closely following my Hawk purchase and upcoming review and I'll be sure to mention it to Nilus (designer and co-owner) next time I speak with him.

As a matter of fact I just shot off an email to him with pictures of what I make and the number I produce in a year along with the type of wood I use, etc asking him if he feels confident the Hawk can handle the workload.  I explained that I've worn out 2 brand new Dewalt 788's in just 18 months.

We'll see if I scare him off.  LOL

[tonylumps]

If we as consumers do our homework and search for reviews before we buy .Witch is not  full proof, Could still get a lemon.Why wouldn't a reputable manufacturer or reseller research and find out how his product is being reviewed.Do they think they are above that or just do not care.I do my homework and still get burnt sometimes.But only once by the same person or product.

[Scrappile]

1 hour ago, tonylumps said:

If we as consumers do our homework and search for reviews before we buy .Witch is not  full proof, Could still get a lemon.Why wouldn't a reputable manufacturer or reseller research and find out how his product is being reviewed.Do they think they are above that or just do not care.I do my homework and still get burnt sometimes.But only once by the same person or product.

I do not think the are above it, however there are lots of forums, and things are missed and they are busy.  Just saying this way they are sure to see it or at least should see it.  I know Ray Seyco appreciated my action.  It also nudges them a little when they see the volume of exposure, that is if they need nudging.

[Mark SW]

So sorry for your woes.

I am looking forward to Bushton response as the Hawk is on my list along with Hegner.

The saw should be ready out of the box and should be protected in the 

crate to prevent damage. There customer service response to you Sir 

may have an impact on my list.

Best of luck

 

[rjweb]

Hope all goes well wth the new saw, it will all work out and in a month you will happy sawing away,  I also noticed  that the warranty on the hawk is 1year, but the Hegner has a 7 year warranty, RJ

[hotshot]

5 hours ago, rjweb said:

..... I also noticed  that the warranty on the hawk is 1year, but the Hegner has a 7 year warranty

That is true, but in the spirit of fairness and balance, though Bushton warranty is embarrassing, and the Hegner warranty much better, the thing that is most likely to go wrong with a Hegner (beside the inexpensive plastic connector rod), would be something electronic.  How does Hegner handle that?  "Electric components such as motors and switches and electronic parts such as variable speed controls carry a one-year manufacturer's warranty."  The Hegner saw is simple with very little to go wrong (one of it's core strengths), but the most complex and expensive component is the motor (which costs about as much as a new Dewalt to replace).  Some will say "the motor is of such quality, it will never go out", so then put a warranty on it that proves that fact.  They also made a point that the one year warranty is a "manufacturer warranty."  Not sure what the implications are of that, but I think the 7yr piece is directly from Advanced and not Hegner itself.  So for electronics, the one year warranty for both saws stink. 

For my Hegner friends out there, this is not a Hegner slam, and I still have a Multimax 22v in my collection that I'm quite proud of and use it for my puzzle boxes, I'm just saying the 7 Year warranty thing isn't a clean "We stand behind our saws for 7 years." 

If these companies truly believe in their products, the should prove it my protecting their customers and create solid warranties without the small print.

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by hotshot

[hotshot]

Since I'm still on warranties, two very scary lines in the Hawk Warranty:

"The warranty covers parts only labor and shipping charges still apply."

"Any repairs and or replacement parts must be done by Bushton Manufacturing, LLC."

These two things together, If they really held the line with this, could really bring on the pain.  How much is round trip shipping?  Labor for defective parts are not covered?  Oh my!  Just how much do they charge an hour for labor to fix their mistake?  Warranty doesn't say, so seems arbitrary.  I think they authorize customers  to replace parts all the time, so perhaps they should have said "Unauthorized repairs" not "Any repairs."

In another section of the warranty, it also says "This warranty does not obligate us to bear the cost of shipping charges in connection with the repair or replacement of the defective parts, nor shall it apply to any machine upon which repairs or alterations have been made unless authorized by us."  Although not directly stated, it seems to imply that a repair that they "authorize" would still be covered, but legally, who knows. 

That said, I've talked to Bushton support and it was a very positive experience (as have been my experiences with Advanced), and I tend to trust these folks, it is just that reading the warrantee make me feel like it was written to undermine any "responsibility" the vendor has for shipping a defective product.  I can't reconcile those two feelings.

Edited July 21, 2017 by hotshot

[Scrappile]

Hotshot, I 100% agree with you.  Not on just scroll saws, but everything that has a Warranty.  The warranty is only as good as the company will stand behind it.  They always have an out.  My only comfort on the Hegner warranty is the company I purchased it from.  Advance Machinery, from the dealing I had with them is a good company.  When I first bought my Hegner from them, I had all kinds of trouble getting it to work on the small blades I intended to use on it.  Through emails and phone calls, they worked with me... I was told, more than once "do not worry, Paul, we are going to stick with you until the Hegner is the only saw you will want to use" or something like that.  And they did (it was me, not the saw).  Seyco is also a great company to deal with, and I hope Hawk is also.  Think about it, these guys are scroll saw people.  DeWalt, Delta, etc. the service is hit and miss, you take your saw to a service center and the techs may not even be able to spell scroll saw.  If you get a knowledgeable one you are in luck.  If not.... and odds are on the, if not.  Please, I do not mean this as a put down on the saws, I owned a DeWalt, it was a good saw, and fortunately I never had a problem with it, but if I had, I know my local service center would have been no real help.  They probably worked on a scroll saw once every 5 - 10 years, if that. 

I also like having a saw I feel comfortable that I will be able to get parts for in the future.  The big companies have a record of discontinuing parts at their will.  Delta is notorious for that.

None of this is exclusive to scroll saws.  Or even tools, but I have a Steel City table saw.  Ever hear of it?  Great table saw.  I sure hope nothing  goes wrong with it, They went out of business several years ago.....