Hawk BM26 Review Update - by Iggy

[rjweb]

Thx for the info on the warranties, I guess you don't know what you have until you need it and go get it fixed, I have a new jet saw, it says 5 year warranty but what exactly is covered I don't know, let's hope I won't need to use it, actually we are becoming a throw away society, well looking forward to see how iggy makes out, RJ

[Mark1]

I''m not wanting to hijack this thread.

Maybe you could give a sort of review of the new Jet saw.  I don't see too much around on them from unofficial sources.

Mark

 

[Rolf]

It is well known that I am a huge supporter of Hawk saws, that said. My feelings regarding saws or anything for that matter manufactured by a small company like Hawk. Should be thoroughly inspected and tested before shipping. If the saw was thrown out of adjustment during shipping I would expect to see a damaged container. Although I received a $500K piece of equipment at work that was supposed to have worked when it left the factory that was missing critical parts, supposedly fell off in shipping. It was in big wooden crate (clear pine  that ended up in my workshop) It took me a year to debug it, field service guy was a dud.

Since many of the new saws on the market are getting up there in the price range this is Hawks golden opportunity to get back into the thick of things regarding sales. They can not afford having these kind of issues.  I hope they do right by you and that this is a one time occurrence.  

[hotshot]

2 hours ago, Mark1 said:

I''m not wanting to hijack this thread.

Maybe you could give a sort of review of the new Jet saw.  I don't see too much around on them from unofficial sources.

Mark

 

Carole has been doing this a while so she isn't the "Get my first saw in the mail today, review it tomorrow" type as you see so often.  She does have some critical observations that you wouldn't get from paid sponsor.

 

 

As Kev point out in the following post, Steve also did a pretty decent review and contributes greatly to our hobby.  He does have a tight relationship with Seyco, but I don't think that detracts from the glipse of the saw that he gives.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by hotshot

[kmmcrafts]

Steve Good also did a review of the Jet... look him up on youtube or his blog

[Bfreeman]

Iggy

I believe you are doing the right thing by discussing what is going on with your saw and I don't believe Bushton is not aware of what's going on. If I had a small company I would probably be doing the same thing. I do believe that they will take care of you.  They have a reputation to maintain and all this free advertising will help them when they solve your problems with your saw . A lot of people are watching and waiting for them to prove that they deserve their reputation.

good luck 

Bill

[Scott Smith]

On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 8:47 AM, tonylumps said:

Iggy. Did he personally check the first one. You should have asked if they put a blade in the saw Because they built the saw and sold it .And if they did then they could say it was shipping damage and not guess.Now I do not think Jet will do that or a reseller of jet. Now I don't know if Ray at Seyco will do it because the Seyco saw does not have the base attached in the box. But then the Hawk is twice the money too.I like the jet.But if I can not run the saw that i purchased That is a deal breaker.I am on the fence about the Seyco because of the base But the service is good

Nilus is one of the owners and does not have time to personally check each saw. As several have stated we are a very small company and only have one person who handles most assembly, though the rest of us will jump in to assist if he is running a little behind. Each saw is tested by assembly with blade installed and on legs. The blade used to test the saw is shipped in place with the rest of the unit. I actually helped assemble that saw to get it out as soon as we could and there were no issues before it was placed in the box.

[hotshot]

Scott, it's good to see you pop in, can I ask you a few troubleshooting questions?

1.  Since you help building the saws, when you put it together, how do you align the motor?  I would like to check motor alignment myself but don't know how that is done?  I can put an angle on the side of connection rod and see that it is exactly 90 degrees to the base, so I'm assuming that is good.  But, I'm not sure how to check front to back placement.  When you are building these saws, how do you know that the motor is positioned correctly or not?

2.  When put these saws together, and you have vibration, what do you check?  My BM26 isn't bad, but it sure won't pass the nickel test, and the vibration at the harmonic point (at about 6 and 7) is pretty bad.  It's fairly decent at the other points.  The feet are all solid on the concrete, the arms seem to be properly aligned (blade is 90 degrees to the table).  Saw is tight to the table, and everything seems tight.  Anyway, any suggestions would be appreciated.

3.  I see you have machinist in your title.  Here is the one I'm probably most interested in and right up your alley.  Is there any way I get some clamps that are not tapped?  The hole size is fine, but I would like to tap my own.  That would be less work for you or the other machinist, and a much happier Hawk owner.

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by hotshot

[Iguanadon]

1 hour ago, Scott Smith said:

Nilus is one of the owners and does not have time to personally check each saw. As several have stated we are a very small company and only have one person who handles most assembly, though the rest of us will jump in to assist if he is running a little behind. Each saw is tested by assembly with blade installed and on legs. The blade used to test the saw is shipped in place with the rest of the unit. I actually helped assemble that saw to get it out as soon as we could and there were no issues before it was placed in the box.

Hello Scott, good to see you, welcome to the Village.  It's nice to see that BM is in touch with the social media world and interested in what the scroll saw community has to say.

We have a great group of folks here from truly all over the world.  Some scroll as a way to make a living, some, like myself, scroll as a hobby with a bit of selling, and others scroll purely for the enjoyment.  We all have one thing in common though and that's a passion for creating sawdust. 

We share a lot of information and one topic always being tossed around are saws.  Who is using which one, who has bought the new model of XYZ, who swears by a certain manufacturer.  I was in the market for a new saw and thought I'd be getting a Hegner, but when I started a post asking for input, I was convinced that the Hawk would be a better fit for me and I took the advice and ordered a Hawk.  I look very forward to being able to get my hands on it and be able to provide my personal review of it.

Iggy

[rjweb]

Has  any word been made of when Iggy  is getting the new saw, I see that Scott has joined the forum now I hope it is for the good of all concerned, this is a hot topic now, RJ

[tonylumps]

1 hour ago, Scott Smith said:

Nilus is one of the owners and does not have time to personally check each saw. As several have stated we are a very small company and only have one person who handles most assembly, though the rest of us will jump in to assist if he is running a little behind. Each saw is tested by assembly with blade installed and on legs. The blade used to test the saw is shipped in place with the rest of the unit. I actually helped assemble that saw to get it out as soon as we could and there were no issues before it was placed in the box.

So what you are saying it was definitely shipping related and you will inspect that saw to confirm that and let us know

[Mark1]

I only know what I have read and can surmise.  The nylon washer on the upper arm on the hawk saw seems to let the clamp lever turn and loosen.  I'm wondering if this isn't exacerbated by being in close proximity to that wedge that needs lubrication.

What if a fellow were to clean this washer and coat both sides with a little powdered rosin?

The rosin won't attract moisture or hurt anything and will create a mild gripping surface.

Any thoughts?

Mark

 

[hotshot]

16 minutes ago, Mark1 said:

What if a fellow were to clean this washer and coat both sides with a little powdered rosin?

The rosin won't attract moisture or hurt anything and will create a mild gripping surface.

I had considered roughing up the surfaces with sand paper to get a grip, but I like the way you think.  I'm a little confused about the powdered rosin though.  I don't think I know what that is.

[Scott Smith]

On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 11:43 AM, hotshot said:

Their warranty is so iffy, you have to get things taken care of pretty quick.  I was watching the old G4 promotion video, and they were talking about their warranty at the time was like 5/6 years, and if anything happen, electric, mechanical, wearable parts, they would replace it period.  Now, that was "standing behind their saws."  Of course they went bankrupt, so there is that. . . .   The warranty they have now looks pretty freaking scary for a $1500 saw.  If they are confident in their saws, they need to stand behind them with a passable warranty, but in this area, they don't, so their new buyers just have to depend on crossed fingers.

That is the one piece of the Bushton story where I just grimace/close my eyes and try to think about the more positive things about the product and company.

 

The "5 (or 6) year warranty" they had when it was RBI was more smoke than anything. Our 1 year warranty is more comprehensive and we stand behind our product completely. If any piece at all breaks or is damaged or even wears out in the first year and in many cases beyond the first year, we will replace it. In the case of one customer who saws over 1000 board feet per day, he had several issues with his blade holder brackets. He broke three of them in a year and a half! We had never had one break before his since we moved away from RBI's cast parts, but we looked into his issues and his needs and altered things slightly so we could keep the man happy and scrolling! We stand behind our saws and I, as machinist for the vast majority of our parts, I'm offended that you think we don't stand behind our machines.

[Scott Smith]

2 hours ago, tonylumps said:

So what you are saying it was definitely shipping related and you will inspect that saw to confirm that and let us know

Absolutely we will be inspecting the machine upon its return. Nilus will be working on an official reply to this forum over the weekend and as soon as we have the saw in hand, I will happily let you all know what we have found to be the cause.

[Scott Smith]

2 hours ago, rjweb said:

Has  any word been made of when Iggy  is getting the new saw, I see that Scott has joined the forum now I hope it is for the good of all concerned, this is a hot topic now, RJ

We have one that is being boxed today. We had a saw together and after running about 45 minutes it started to get a little noisy, so we were troubleshooting it. It will be leaving the shop Monday with very little noise and I have already stood a nickel on end while it ran at full speed, so I apologize for the delays, but as stated previously we are not some multi-million dollar company mass producing machines. We have three people in the shop, two in the office, and two owners who do a little bit of everything. Nilus is the primary one you will hear about because he is also the engineer of the machine's upgrades and if there's a problem he will fix it and figure out why it happened in the first place.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Scott Smith

[Scott Smith]

2 hours ago, Iguanadon said:

Hello Scott, good to see you, welcome to the Village.  It's nice to see that BM is in touch with the social media world and interested in what the scroll saw community has to say.

We have a great group of folks here from truly all over the world.  Some scroll as a way to make a living, some, like myself, scroll as a hobby with a bit of selling, and others scroll purely for the enjoyment.  We all have one thing in common though and that's a passion for creating sawdust. 

We share a lot of information and one topic always being tossed around are saws.  Who is using which one, who has bought the new model of XYZ, who swears by a certain manufacturer.  I was in the market for a new saw and thought I'd be getting a Hegner, but when I started a post asking for input, I was convinced that the Hawk would be a better fit for me and I took the advice and ordered a Hawk.  I look very forward to being able to get my hands on it and be able to provide my personal review of it.

Iggy

We try. I am one of the more tech-savvy people available here as far as social media and the like. I'm primarily the machinist for the company though and don't spend much time at the office, hence I rarely think to check in and see what's going on in the forums.

[Iguanadon]

21 minutes ago, Scott Smith said:

We have one that is being boxed today. We had a saw together and after running about 45 minutes it started to get a little noisy, so we were troubleshooting it. It will be leaving the shop Monday with very little noise and I have already stood a nickel on end while it ran at full speed, so I apologize for the delays, but as stated previously we are not some multi-million dollar company mass producing machines. We have three people in the shop, two in the office, and two owners who do a little bit of everything. Nilus is the primary one you will hear about because he is also the engineer of the machine's upgrades and if there's a problem he will fix it and figure out why it happened in the first place.

Thanks for the update Scott and appreciate the extra QC inspection, very much appreciated.  

Enjoy your weekend

[Scott Smith]

3 hours ago, hotshot said:

Scott, it's good to see you pop in, can I ask you a few troubleshooting questions?

1.  Since you help building the saws, when you put it together, how do you align the motor?  I would like to check motor alignment myself but don't know how that is done?  I can put an angle on the side of connection rod and see that it is exactly 90 degrees to the base, so I'm assuming that is good.  But, I'm not sure how to check front to back placement.  When you are building these saws, how do you know that the motor is positioned correctly or not?

2.  When put these saws together, and you have vibration, what do you check?  My BM26 isn't bad, but it sure won't pass the nickel test, and the vibration at the harmonic point (at about 6 and 7) is pretty bad.  It's fairly decent at the other points.  The feet are all solid on the concrete, the arms seem to be properly aligned (blade is 90 degrees to the table).  Saw is tight to the table, and everything seems tight.  Anyway, any suggestions would be appreciated.

3.  I see you have machinist in your title.  Here is the one I'm probably most interested in and right up your alley.  Is there any way I get some clamps that are not tapped?  The hole size is fine, but I would like to tap my own.  That would be less work for you or the other machinist, and a much happier Hawk owner.

 

I'm always willing to answer questions. If you have more, or just want to pick a brain, you can always message me at scott@bushtonmanufacturing.com

 

1. We put everything but the table together loosely, then mount the motor, install the table and table tilt, and align all of the components to the motor. There are alignment instructions available for anybody who calls and asks for them.

2. If we have vibration in a new saw, the first thing we check is did we get the alignment correct. Then we check the pitman arm (the one that goes from the lower arm to the motor) to be sure the spacer washers are properly seated. Then we will check the tension system. Sometimes it's a bent tension rod, or a bad cam somewhere. Then we replace the motors. Because they are a sealed motor, we do not open the motor unless it has been on a saw that has gone out of warranty. We will replace them outright. Our harmonic point can have some bad vibration and we do as much as we can for that, but unfortunately we haven't found a way to smooth it out. Nilus will be providing me with a longer explanation for causes of vibration to post here at a later date.

3. If you call in and ask about getting untapped blade holders, they will probably want to talk to Nilus about it, but we can get some to you the next time we make a batch. I've already spoken with Nilus and he has agreed. I warn that we try to make those in batches that range into the hundreds, so we may not have one available immediately, but I can be sure we get some to you when we make them. We will be needing to make the lower one in the next couple months.

 

 

 

[Scott Smith]

1 hour ago, Mark1 said:

I only know what I have read and can surmise.  The nylon washer on the upper arm on the hawk saw seems to let the clamp lever turn and loosen.  I'm wondering if this isn't exacerbated by being in close proximity to that wedge that needs lubrication.

What if a fellow were to clean this washer and coat both sides with a little powdered rosin?

The rosin won't attract moisture or hurt anything and will create a mild gripping surface.

Any thoughts?

Mark

 

The nylon washer was placed there to prevent exactly that. The wedge should not need lubrication except where it touches the arm. If the nylon washer isn't dry, it will allow exactly as you describe to occur. Most older models don't have the nylon washer and it was far more of a problem at that time.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Scott Smith

[Scott Smith]

8 hours ago, Rolf said:

It is well known that I am a huge supporter of Hawk saws, that said. My feelings regarding saws or anything for that matter manufactured by a small company like Hawk. Should be thoroughly inspected and tested before shipping. If the saw was thrown out of adjustment during shipping I would expect to see a damaged container. Although I received a $500K piece of equipment at work that was supposed to have worked when it left the factory that was missing critical parts, supposedly fell off in shipping. It was in big wooden crate (clear pine  that ended up in my workshop) It took me a year to debug it, field service guy was a dud.

Since many of the new saws on the market are getting up there in the price range this is Hawks golden opportunity to get back into the thick of things regarding sales. They can not afford having these kind of issues.  I hope they do right by you and that this is a one time occurrence.  

Our current working theory is that the saw may have been dropped and the jarring effect from the drop may have misaligned parts in the motor, specifically the armature or bearings. We will be giving it a very thorough look-over though. Thank you for always having our backs Rolf!

[Mark1]

If you've ever watched a major league pitcher, you will see them grab a small white bag close to the pitchers mound.  That bag is full of powdered rosin.

The Marine Corps silent drill team uses powdered rosin on the bottoms of their shoes to prevent slipping.

When a turkey call (box type) needs "tuning up", rosin is applied to the cedar box to get a little friction.  This will cause sound to come easier, and affects the pitch and range of the sound.

It is also used in bullet casting to flux the molten lead.  The dross produced is skimmed off, and the lead is purified.

I'm sorry, I know how to use it, I really don't know what the heck it is.

Mark

 

[Scrappile]

Same rosin used to "rosin up your bow" like in violin only in powder form.  Can be purchased at lots of places online..Amazon, Ebay, sports medicine stores...

Edited July 22, 2017 by Scrappile

[hotshot]

On 7/21/2017 at 4:03 PM, Scott Smith said:

 I'm offended that you think we don't stand behind our machines.

Scott, I'm sorry you feel offended, and am glad to hear of examples where Bushton replaced a part after the one year.  Please try to see if from our perspective.  $1400 (without shipping) is very very expensive for a scroll saw.  But your customers are looking for a tool that they can count on to last for many years, so in order to get those "Years of Service", your customers pay the extra money.  So, Bushton may indeed stand behind their machines, and that is a very good thing, but the warranty absolutely does not reflect that commitment to quality and durability.

So, please don't be offended, but instead challenge your company to step up and give your customers a warranty that reflects that Bushton commitment to their customer, Bushton's belief in their product, and honor the investment and faith your customers place in your company.

Edited July 26, 2017 by hotshot

[Scrappile]

I think this is a great thread, and thank you Scott for stepping up and responding.  Please believe, that many of us here truly want your company to succeed.  There are currently only two saws that I feel are in the production saw class.  Yours and Hegner.  I'd hate to see either not succeed.  I own a Hegner, and may some day own a Hawk.  I like fine, durable, precision tools.  And although I am not rich, scrolling does not require a large inventory of tools like some woodworking hobbies.  Fact since I really got into scrolling, I have sold some of my other tools to pay for my scroll saws.  So yes, Hegner and Hawk are expensive, but when they are the main hobby, the total expense for tools is less.  Least that is how I justify to my self why I can spend the money on higher end scroll saws.

Anyway.  Welcome Scott, thanks for stepping in.