Hawk BM26 Review Update - by Iggy

[Scott Smith]

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 10:29 PM, hotshot said:

I have a question for any machinist (or folks that know this kind of thing).  I'm pretty sure what I have in mind will work, but I wanted to sanity check my assumptions.

The current BM clamps are drilled somewhat less than 1/4" (13/64") and tapped at 20 threads per inch to result in it accepting a 1/4" X 20 Thumbscrew.

The knobs I want to use are M6 and tapped to 1 thread  per mm.  In inches, the outer diameter of the shaft would be 0.23622 which is really really close to 1/4"

So the question is, if Bushton sends me untapped clamps drilled at 13/64", am I going to be able to tap them using the M6 X 1 tap?  The normal hole size for that tap is 5 mm or 0.197". 

So Bushton Hole is 0.203125"  vs M6 hole which would be 0.19685" for a difference of .006275", so we can say the hole is about 6 thousands too big which seems like it would be close enough, am I right?

I'm not a machinist, so my Math could totally be screwed up, but I know the M6 thumbscrews are close to the same size as the 1/4" because the M6 X 1 starts to thread into the Bushton clamp.  At the end of the day, if I can get this to happen, I will have a Hawk Clamp that will take a Thumbscrew from the DW/EX/Seyco/Hegner and make use of that rotating tip.  I really think that would help.

Our blade holders are actually tapped using a #7 drill (.201") which makes it slightly less of a difference than even that. The tap will work, but it will still be a bit loose to start with which means you run a larger risk of it not being straight when the teeth of the bit catch. If you can get the tap started straight, I would imagine that this would work well.

[Scott Smith]

On ‎7‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 6:13 PM, stoney said:

If I understand the issue with Hawk blade clamps it appears to best solution would be for Bushton to start using a rotating tip thumb screw in their clamps. JMHO   Please correct me if I am wrong.

I will be discussing this with Nilus.

[Iguanadon]

Scott, any update for me on my issues?

[rjweb]

Iggy,

You still having problems with the new saw, I thought it would have been straighten out by now, RJ

[Iguanadon]

3 minutes ago, rjweb said:

Iggy,

You still having problems with the new saw, I thought it would have been straighten out by now, RJ

My patience is being stretched to the max right now RJ... I need answers from either Scott or Nilus soon or I'm going to have to take other actions.

[orangeman]

What's the trouble Iggy?

bb

[Iguanadon]

9 minutes ago, orangeman said:

What's the trouble Iggy?

bb

Same as the first saw.  Excessive vibration, excess noise and the vibration is so bad it's backing the set screw out that controls the forward pitch of the blade and I was having to toss out puzzles because the pieces wouldn't slide in and out.  I stopped using the saw 5 days ago waiting to hear back from BM.

My best guess is the saws are getting tossed around and not being kept upright during their long journey.  The only place that says THIS SIDE UP is on the top of the box and the first thing the UPS guy did when he picked up the first saw was flip it on its side to put on his dolly... So they're not paying attention and don't really care.

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, Iguanadon said:

Same as the first saw.  Excessive vibration, excess noise and the vibration is so bad it's backing the set screw out that controls the forward pitch of the blade and I was having to toss out puzzles because the pieces wouldn't slide in and out.  I stopped using the saw 5 days ago waiting to hear back from BM.

My best guess is the saws are getting tossed around and not being kept upright during their long journey.  The only place that says THIS SIDE UP is on the top of the box and the first thing the UPS guy did when he picked up the first saw was flip it on its side to put on his dolly... So they're not paying attention and don't really care.

Sorry to hear about this with the second saw.. I thought all was good with this one..

Is this noise and vibration at all speeds? My saw does a Honorable loud noise and vibration at top speed.. ( sounds like something is hitting the connecting rod ) actually does it from around 7/8 of the way up and above.. then there is one spot on the lower end that vibrates pretty good but no noise... My old Hawk done the same thing but I loosened up all the bolts and did some adjustments and got it about as smooth as my DeWalt through all the speeds... just can't seem to do anything with my newer saw..other than cut at the lower speed just before it gets to that one area... Just wondering if my issues are the same as yours.. since I bought mine used.. but still new in the box.. who knows how many times that saw box was kicked around this guys shop over the last 20 years.. I keep following your post about this as maybe whatever it is with yours is the same issue with mine.. while not the same saw.. it still might be something for me to check.. It's usable and cuts square.. just can't cut in those couple speed ranges..     

[Scrappile]

Iggy, maybe time to look at a Hegner.  Been scrolling on mine this evening and I say what is vibration......?  It is rock solid.  I moved from my Seyco to the Hegner to get a little less aggressive cut.  1/4" soft wood.   What a difference between it and the Seyco in vibration.  The Seyco is good and smooth.  The Hegner.... the only thing that moves is the blower hose.  But again I will admit, the Hegner is not one a person would move to and immediately say this is it, this is the very finest.  It takes some practice and getting use to in the world of tension and blade changes.  But once that barrier is crossed..... I love my Hegner.

[Rolf]

Iggy  I am sorry to hear that you are having issues with your new saw.

I have a couple of questions, bear with me. What blade are you using and is the tension giving you the classic "C" sound? I ask this because on my older Hawk if the tension gets too loose I get more noise and vibration especially at higher speeds. With your puzzle parts not coming out, did you put a square on the edge?, is it bowed or is it beveled? 

Bowed will be either too low a tension or pushing sideways. beveled is the obvious table not square to the table.

I know you are not new to scrolling so I hope you are not offended by my basic questions.

This trouble you are having with your saw are very disappointing  to me almost as much as the frustration you are feeling.

[Iguanadon]

51 minutes ago, Rolf said:

Iggy  I am sorry to hear that you are having issues with your new saw.

I have a couple of questions, bear with me. What blade are you using and is the tension giving you the classic "C" sound? I ask this because on my older Hawk if the tension gets too loose I get more noise and vibration especially at higher speeds. With your puzzle parts not coming out, did you put a square on the edge?, is it bowed or is it beveled? 

Bowed will be either too low a tension or pushing sideways. beveled is the obvious table not square to the table.

I know you are not new to scrolling so I hope you are not offended by my basic questions.

This trouble you are having with your saw are very disappointing  to me almost as much as the frustration you are feeling.

Hi Rolf,

Using a #3 blade, tension isn't an issue at all, I have that figured out and have the correct "ping" of the blade.  The saw is vibrating like crazy and even the blade vibrates so much side to side that I am unable to start a cut on a line precisely. I shot 2 videos of this and sent them to BM for review.  

The vibration is also so bad that as I mentioned, it's literally vibrating the set screw out that adjusts the forward/backward pitch of the blade and when that happens the puzzle pieces will not slide.  I realize a dab of medium strength Loctite will help with that but I am not going to do anything without instruction from BM.  Unless the vibration issue is resolved, there's no reason to worry about the set screw at this point.

At this point the saw is completely unusable and I'm approaching 2 months since I placed my order on June 11th.

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Iguanadon

[Iguanadon]

I hadn't planned on sharing these until I heard back from BM, but since I'm not getting any updates, take a look at these two videos in their entirety with your sound on and if you click on FULL SCREEN you'll see it clearer, and yes the blade is fully tensioned with the proper "ping".

 

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Iguanadon

[rjweb]

That really sucks, after spending that kind of money and runs like that, I understand why your are upset, they should take it back and maybe buy a hegner, RJ

[kmmcrafts]

Maybe just me and it'is hard to tell without actually being there and seeing / hearing it in person.. BUT... that blade at a certain SPM setting.. ( I think it was around 9? ) looked to me to be flexing which in my mind.. is a tension issue.. I had been having problems with my saw for quite some time.. and I honestly don't know what I did.. but I was playing around with the tension bolt etc at the back of the saw.. and this had went away.. while your vibration at the certain speeds is a lot like how mine is.. I know we don't have the exact same model saw.. as mine is a older 26" Ultra.. but the tension design part of it is still the same..

One other thing to note.. my blade wouldn't fit in the ( bottom feeding ) upper blade holder without raising it up a little.. as if the blade was too long. Whatever I did at the back of the saw.. made the blade fit perfectly.. and it also set me up with slightly more tension. which at first I thought was probably too much.. I was worried I might snap blades but gave it a go to see what happen.. well... I stopped snapping blades and the blade flexing went away too.. Seems like a lot more tension on the blade than what I always did on my DeWalt.. but I'm not going to loosen it if it's working now.. LOL

Might not be the same issues with your saw. Had I bought my saw new.. I might have given up as well.. especially the amount of money one cost... they are a lot different than the DeWalt.. and I been using the DeWalt since 2009 until I got the first Hawk last oct.  I just keep playing around with it.. tweeking things until I've had enough.. then use the DeWalt for a while.. been a frustrating at times but adventure for sure... I love it for cutting thin wood and stack cutting 4-5 1/8" BBply.. but not yet sold on using it for solid hardwoods yet.. though I haven't used it on hard woods since I've made this adjustment and more blade tension.. whatever it was I did, LOL...

Anyway, to me.. the video makes it look like a tension issue.. May not be..just saying what I think I am seeing.

 

[Iguanadon]

Just now, kmmcrafts said:

Maybe just me and it'is hard to tell without actually being there and seeing / hearing it in person.. BUT... that blade at a certain SPM setting.. ( I think it was around 9? ) looked to me to be flexing which in my mind.. is a tension issue.. I had been having problems with my saw for quite some time.. and I honestly don't know what I did.. but I was playing around with the tension bolt etc at the back of the saw.. and this had went away.. while your vibration at the certain speeds is a lot like how mine is.. I know we don't have the exact same model saw.. as mine is a older 26" Ultra.. but the tension design part of it is still the same..

One other thing to note.. my blade wouldn't fit in the ( bottom feeding ) upper blade holder without raising it up a little.. as if the blade was too long. Whatever I did at the back of the saw.. made the blade fit perfectly.. and it also set me up with slightly more tension. which at first I thought was probably too much.. I was worried I might snap blades but gave it a go to see what happen.. well... I stopped snapping blades and the blade flexing went away too.. Seems like a lot more tension on the blade than what I always did on my DeWalt.. but I'm not going to loosen it if it's working now.. LOL

Might not be the same issues with your saw. Had I bought my saw new.. I might have given up as well.. especially the amount of money one cost... they are a lot different than the DeWalt.. and I been using the DeWalt since 2009 until I got the first Hawk last oct.  I just keep playing around with it.. tweeking things until I've had enough.. then use the DeWalt for a while.. been a frustrating at times but adventure for sure... I love it for cutting thin wood and stack cutting 4-5 1/8" BBply.. but not yet sold on using it for solid hardwoods yet.. though I haven't used it on hard woods since I've made this adjustment and more blade tension.. whatever it was I did, LOL...

Anyway, to me.. the video makes it look like a tension issue.. May not be..just saying what I think I am seeing.

 

Honest to goodness, not a tension issue, I am 100% certain of that.

[tonylumps]

41 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

Maybe just me and it'is hard to tell without actually being there and seeing / hearing it in person.. BUT... that blade at a certain SPM setting.. ( I think it was around 9? ) looked to me to be flexing which in my mind.. is a tension issue.. I had been having problems with my saw for quite some time.. and I honestly don't know what I did.. but I was playing around with the tension bolt etc at the back of the saw.. and this had went away.. while your vibration at the certain speeds is a lot like how mine is.. I know we don't have the exact same model saw.. as mine is a older 26" Ultra.. but the tension design part of it is still the same..

One other thing to note.. my blade wouldn't fit in the ( bottom feeding ) upper blade holder without raising it up a little.. as if the blade was too long. Whatever I did at the back of the saw.. made the blade fit perfectly.. and it also set me up with slightly more tension. which at first I thought was probably too much.. I was worried I might snap blades but gave it a go to see what happen.. well... I stopped snapping blades and the blade flexing went away too.. Seems like a lot more tension on the blade than what I always did on my DeWalt.. but I'm not going to loosen it if it's working now.. LOL

Might not be the same issues with your saw. Had I bought my saw new.. I might have given up as well.. especially the amount of money one cost... they are a lot different than the DeWalt.. and I been using the DeWalt since 2009 until I got the first Hawk last oct.  I just keep playing around with it.. tweeking things until I've had enough.. then use the DeWalt for a while.. been a frustrating at times but adventure for sure... I love it for cutting thin wood and stack cutting 4-5 1/8" BBply.. but not yet sold on using it for solid hardwoods yet.. though I haven't used it on hard woods since I've made this adjustment and more blade tension.. whatever it was I did, LOL...

Anyway, to me.. the video makes it look like a tension issue.. May not be..just saying what I think I am seeing.

 

Cutting 3/4 hardwood like Oak and Hard Maple Will bring out the best and worst in a saw.I cut 75% hardwood 3/4 and 1/2 inch.I have a slab of 1" oak that i use sometimes.even the Hegner is slow feeding that.

[tuner]

I am just following the thread like many others, and sorry for your problems, it's beginning to look like a costumer service break down which should not happen. One though.. you say it's not a tension problem and I believe you would know, but from my experience with my old Ex I know that sound. I really hope you get some satisfaction and soon because the companys falling down bad on this one and I don't think they can afford it

[Iguanadon]

3 minutes ago, tuner said:

I am just following the thread like many others, and sorry for your problems, it's beginning to look like a costumer service break down which should not happen. One though.. you say it's not a tension problem and I believe you would know, but from my experience with my old Ex I know that sound. I really hope you get some satisfaction and soon because the companys falling down bad on this one and I don't think they can afford it

I'm trying to be very patient with BM... Nikole just had a baby and Scott Smith is her husband, and grandpa is Nilus, so I know they're short handed as Scott is helping Nikole at home with the kids, etc, etc... But even sweet, lovable Iggy has his limits.  They've had my $1700 for 2 months as of this coming Friday and I have no working saw.

Keep in mind while watching the videos, the frames per second the camera is filming changes how things look in person a little bit.  The overall vibration of the saw is worse and the side to side movement of the blade is even more pronounced in person... Can you imagine trying to start a cut on a line with that blade vibrating side to side like that?  I was getting a headache after an hour of cutting because the vibration was also making the piece I was cutting move so much it was "blurry" and my eyes were straining to focus on the lines I was trying to cut along. 

I swear to all of you the tension is perfect.  Perfect ping, no blade breakage, no flexing while cutting.  If it weren't for the forward/aggressiveness pitch of the blade adjusting all by itself due to vibration, my puzzle pieces slide in and out both ways as they should.  I truly appreciate the comments, ideas and input by all of you.

[Woodmaster1]

I think I would buy 4 Dewalt 788's and I would always have spare and not spend anymore money.

[SCROLLSAW703]

On 7/20/2017 at 6:50 PM, Scrappile said:

 

Iggy, I'm sorry to hear you're STILL havin' issues, brother. This situation appears to be getting worse instead of better. I've been tryin' to follow this thread to see if you're getting any results. I found out yesterday Nicole had her baby. So Scott is burnin' the candle at both ends. Did you end up loosening the six bolts underneath & move it around & settle it in place? And like I noted in the video you sent me, the blade doesn't appear to be centered in the blade hole in the table. Mine was off just a little bit when we bought it new. I loosened the bolts underneath & centered it. 
From the vibration you're describing, it makes me wonder if one or both of your arms aren't bent. To have that much vibration, it's all that's really left. If it got dropped on it's head in shipping, or fell & hit the trailer floor, or worse yet, somethin' fell on top of it. Which wouldn't surprise me in the least with ups, that's all it would take to tweak those arms. 

And as much racket as it makes, from my experience with Hawk saws, something is out of balance, or out of alignment. That saw should run so quiet, you can hear the blade cuttin'.  just a couple thoughts i had, Iggy. keep in touch, & good luck.

[Iguanadon]

4 minutes ago, Woodmaster1 said:

I think I would buy 4 Dewalt 788's and I would always have spare and not spend anymore money.

LOL, I already have 3 and I've worn 2 of them out...  That's what started this whole endeavor to find a more durable saw that requires minimal maintenance/repair.

P.S. One of those 2 worn out DeWalt's is still under warranty and I'm taking it to the service center in Raleigh when I head to my big event in a couple of weeks.

[Oldmansbike]

Sorry for your trOubles on the new saw Iggy. I have a 1996 26 inch Ultra I bought brand new that still runs as good as new. I had some trouble last year with breaking blades and blades slipping out of the upper blade holder. I discovered that the rear tension rod needed adjusted down a couple of turns. After I did the adjustment the saw is like new again. I assume after 21 years there was some wear some where. This saw has seen some hard use over the years. A lot of 3/4 oak plywood etc. 

[Scrappile]

 

1 hour ago, Woodmaster1 said:

I think I would buy 4 Dewalt 788's and I would always have spare and not spend anymore money.

Will not to start any  big argument here, like Ford versa Chevy,,, but, you buy your 4 DeWalts (Chevy) and I will keep my Hegner (Ford) and my Ford ah, sorry Hegner will be running long after you wear out all 4 of your DeWalts...... and have to buy 4 more....

Come on,,, just having fun.

[Woodmaster1]

True I forgot about hegner. Your right about getting the best. I can't spend that kind of money on a saw for a hobby. Anyway the ford and chevy statements in the eye of the beholder. I always said ford stands for fix or repair daily(LOL).

[Scrappile]

15 minutes ago, Woodmaster1 said:

True I forgot about hegner. Your right about getting the best. I can't spend that kind of money on a saw for a hobby. Anyway the ford and chevy statements in the eye of the beholder. I always said ford stands for fix or repair daily(LOL).

Ouch!  I drive a GMC and have had several of them, only because my Brother-in-law and nephew are Chevy guys and they told me they would never work on a Ford. But they do work on my GMC's.   BUT, my very favorite PU ever and will always be my favorite was a "66 Ford.  I'd still be driving it if my kids hadn't learned how to drive.  They both took a whack at wrecking it.  My daughter finished it off.  But because she is an awesome daughter, I never bring it up,,, even though it was only 30 some years ago....!  I hold no grudges.... (I will get even)....

I say no more, this is Iggy's thread.  Sorry.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Scrappile