Don't give up too Early

[hotshot]

I thought I had the Hawk trimmed out to it's lowest aggression setting, at least according to what I thought was factory default. When I tried to cut a coin, I had so much blade travel I couldn't see the lines. You ever have that rotten feeling in your stomach when something is wrong that you might not be  able to fix?

So I tried another approach to tuning it. Since the Hawk can run so very slowly, I could actually put the tool in the lower adjustment, and tune it while the saw was running. (I'm sure this isn't supported) There for a minute, I didn't think it was going to work, but then all the sudden, the saw fell into an almost motionless setting. You can imagine my relief. Anyway, of all my saws, the Hawk is the only one capable of being tuned on the Fly. The EX can sort of do this too, but you have to loosen the motor bolts, so I'm thinking that doesn't count.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by hotshot

[rjweb]

Glad to see you making out with your saw, between you and Iggy if someone needs help with tweaking their hawk you will be the go to man, RJ

[kmmcrafts]

While I don't have what i would call variable adjusting on my ultra.. I do have 2 slots for the blade holder to fit in.. Today I was cutting out a clock order and there was some small areas of grass in a fret that was quite large.. I put the entry hole near the grass and was cutting it first... once I got past that delicate area it was too slow going for my taste.. so I stopped the saw loosened the blade tension which gives enough slack to change the lower blade holder position... without removing the blade.. moved to the more aggressive position and tension the blade.. no tools required.. I bet not many saws can do that..

That said though.. with my saw cutting out 1/2" + hardwood.. I find that the two positions are either not aggressive enough.. or too aggressive when I get to detailed areas.. If there was a position in between.. I probably could live with it better and not need to make any adjustments.. however I do like the less aggressive position for cutting a stack of 3 or less detailed cutting on 1/8" bbply. which I hate doing on my deWalt,

Being able to stop in the cut and release tension change position of clamp and go again is a pretty nice feature though..I imagine the BM series could do this as well but probably not as quickly and easy.. But they can get that sweet spot in the middle that I cannot..       

[amazingkevin]

2 hours ago, hotshot said:

I thought I had the Hawk trimmed out to it's lowest aggression setting, at least according to what I thought was factory default. When I tried to cut a coin, I had so much blade travel I couldn't see the lines. You ever have that rotten feeling in your stomach when something is wrong that you might not be  able to fix?

So I tried another approach to tuning it. Since the Hawk can run so very slowly, I could actually put the tool in the lower adjustment, and tune it while the saw was running. (I'm sure this isn't supported) There for a minute, I didn't think it was going to work, but then all the sudden, the saw fell into an almost motionless setting. You can imagine my relief. Anyway, of all my saws, the Hawk is the only one capable of being tuned on the Fly. The EX can sort of do this too, but you have to loosen the motor bolts, so I'm thinking that doesn't count.

 

 

I like it when the unexpected happens in my favor.Guess we'll be seeing some really detailed coins from now on.

[Iguanadon]

So, my latest thing is that the pitch adjustment for the blade to set how aggressive is now working itself out while I'm cutting... I guess a dab of medium Loctite will be needed.  I just had to throw away a Sea Turtle puzzle because I didn't notice it had adjusted itself and caused the puzzle piece I cut to not slide in and out... Yes, frustration is starting to set in.

Hotshot, I sent you a couple of videos via PM when you get a chance to view them.

[hotshot]

Iggy, if your positioning is moving, I would think that would be bad.  

However, just as a sanity check, blades can be placed in that bottom clamp from anywhere from far forward, to far back.  That would create a distance difference that might make a difference.  I started to purposely put my blades to the back of both top and bottom, so that I have a "positive stop" to create consistency.  While I'm tweaking my blade travel, I stopped blind feeding the bottom clamp, and started using that top accessory arm so I can see clearly to ensure the blade is flush.  That is probably not your issue, but I think it was causing me some issues, so thought it was worth mentioning.  

You might find your optimum position, and mark it with a magic marker to make that movement easier to detect/measure.  I may do the same.

Edited August 2, 2017 by hotshot

[Iguanadon]

10 hours ago, hotshot said:

Iggy, if your positioning is moving, I would think that would be bad.  

However, just as a sanity check, blades can be placed in that bottom clamp from anywhere from far forward, to far back.  That would create a distance difference that might make a difference.  I started to purposely put my blades to the back of both top and bottom, so that I have a "positive stop" to create consistency.  While I'm tweaking my blade travel, I stopped blind feeding the bottom clamp, and started using that top accessory arm so I can see clearly to ensure the blade is flush.  That is probably not your issue, but I think it was causing me some issues, so thought it was worth mentioning.  

You might find your optimum position, and mark it with a magic marker to make that movement easier to detect/measure.  I may do the same.

Thanks for the thought, but on the new model, there is only one spot for the lower blade holder and any pitch adjustments have to be made via the set screw going in or out and that's what is vibrating out as the saw is running... Further proof that the vibration I'm experiencing is well beyond average or normal.

Hint of the day for folks... I have been using a business card along the back of the blade which has worked well since I don't own a small enough square to use.

[hotshot]

1 hour ago, Iguanadon said:

Thanks for the thought, but on the new model, there is only one spot for the lower blade holder and any pitch adjustments have to be made via the set screw going in or out and that's what is vibrating out as the saw is running... Further proof that the vibration I'm experiencing is well beyond average or normal.

Hint of the day for folks... I have been using a business card along the back of the blade which has worked well since I don't own a small enough square to use.

Hey Iggy, I probably didn't explain myself well.  We are using the same saw and clamps, but I was talking about the blade position inside the clamp, not the clamp position itself.  Here is an example  where the blade is placed towards the edge.  It could have been just as easily placed in the middle, or against other edge.  When I'm blind feeding, if I'm not paying attention, it could be anywhere.  The bigger the blade, the less of an issue this would be because there is less wiggle room.  For accuracy, I'm trying to place my blade against the back edge, which creates a solid stop, and should help with consistency.  With that consistency, I then adjust the aggression.

Again, I doubt this is your issue with the size of blades you are using, but for others that happen by this information, it might be good to consider.

(I marked the top red to readily tell my old clamp from the new)

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, hotshot said:

Hey Iggy, I probably didn't explain myself well.  We are using the same saw and clamps, but I was talking about the blade position inside the clamp, not the clamp position itself.  Here is an example  where the blade is placed towards the edge.  It could have been just as easily placed in the middle, or against other edge.  When I'm blind feeding, if I'm not paying attention, it could be anywhere.  The bigger the blade, the less of an issue this would be because there is less wiggle room.  For accuracy, I'm trying to place my blade against the back edge, which creates a solid stop, and should help with consistency.  With that consistency, I then adjust the aggression.

Again, I doubt this is your issue with the size of blades you are using, but for others that happen by this information, it might be good to consider.

(I marked the top red to readily tell my old clamp from the new)

I've wondered about this blade positioning in these clamps myself.. if it really changes the angle or not.. since ( mine anyway ) they rest in a rounded out spot in the lower arm and the holder has a round pin.. I wondered if that would even make a difference as the holder is free to rotate some.. which once you put tension on it somewhat automatically lines up some.. but maybe not enough to matter..  Not sure if your newer saws are set up similar or not.. I may do some experimenting today with this.. as I'd like to get a more firm mount on the blade and maybe some more forward movement.. something needs change or I will be selling a Hawk.. I can stack cut and cut out around 10 + or - ( depending of coarse how detailed they may be ) a couple ornaments per hour on my DeWalt.. but I'm lucky to get half that many with the Hawk.. and for me.. time is money.. especially during the holidays.. I either need to get this cutting faster or do another rebuild of the DeWalt before I get too busy.. LOL

 

[hotshot]

5 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

........ I either need to get this cutting faster or do another rebuild of the DeWalt before I get too busy.. LOL

 

Kevin, you might be right about the rotation of the clamp re-centering the blade, it would take some accurate measuring to see if that was the case.  If it did rotate, that might stress the blade, in which case you would want the blade centered which might be a trick for BM users that are blindly loading it for top feeding.

Which blades are you using?  If you have your clamp in the "aggressive notch", I'm thinking you might need to "up" your blade selection if you haven't already.

I think there is an important difference in how blade travel work in the 788/EX/Seyco/Delta vs the Hawk.

On the Hawk, when you up the aggression, you are changing the angle of the blade coming down.  If you look at the blade motion of the EX style saws, it looks like the blade remains perpendicular to the table, but shifts forward and backwards.

So, on the Ex/788 style saws, as soon as the blade hits the wood and begins cutting, the blade bends a little back and keeps constant contact with the wood, eliminating effective blade travel.  However, the forward pressure is going to create a kind of hammer drill effect, which I think helps it out when cutting thicker wood but still allowing tight turns.  I will say, it is annoying trying to approach a new cut, from a steep angle, with a saw with too much aggression.  

I don't have my head wrapped around the slanted blade approach of the Hawk, or how that actually effects accuracy and agressiveness.

With a spiral blades, while moving/cutting sideways, any blade travel is bad, and  may cause a kerf that might be larger or less predictable than desired.  If I'm using spirals, the Hegner would be my goto saw.  If the Hawk clamps can handle spirals, Hawk might be equally effective.

 

Edited August 2, 2017 by hotshot

[tonylumps]

Kevin Did you buy your Dewalt new And if so how many times did you have to rebuild it.I am looking at my Local CL for a cheap Dewalt to take apart and rebuild for a winter project 

[kmmcrafts]

53 minutes ago, hotshot said:

Kevin, you might be right about the rotation of the clamp re-centering the blade, it would take some accurate measuring to see if that was the case.  If it did rotate, that might stress the blade, in which case you would want the blade centered which might be a trick for BM users that are blindly loading it for top feeding.

Which blades are you using?  If you have your clamp in the "aggressive notch", I'm thinking you might need to "up" your blade selection if you haven't already.

I think there is an important difference in how blade travel work in the 788/EX/Seyco/Delta vs the Hawk.

On the Hawk, when you up the aggression, you are changing the angle of the blade coming down.  If you look at the blade motion of the EX style saws, it looks like the blade remains perpendicular to the table, but shifts forward and backwards.

So, on the Ex/788 style saws, as soon as the blade hits the wood and begins cutting, the blade bends a little back and keeps constant contact with the wood, eliminating effective blade travel.  However, the forward pressure is going to create a kind of hammer drill effect, which I think helps it out when cutting thicker wood but still allowing tight turns.  I will say, it is annoying trying to approach a new cut, from a steep angle, with a saw with too much aggression.  

I don't have my head wrapped around the slanted blade approach of the Hawk, or how that actually effects accuracy and agressiveness.

With a spiral blades, while moving/cutting sideways, any blade travel is bad, and  may cause a kerf that might be larger or less predictable than desired.  If I'm using spirals, the Hegner would be my goto saw.  If the Hawk clamps can handle spirals, Hawk might be equally effective.

 

I played around with my blade inserting in the clamp at different angles a little today.. If I put the blade as far toward the front of the clamp as I can go.. it makes my saw cut much like my DeWalt does with the clamp inserted in the first position ( less aggressive )... I haven't tried it in the 2nd position yet.. and don't really think I will need to.. I find that cutting in the 2nd position is too aggressive for most of my work other than cutting out large un-detailed areas...   so your assumption of how it's entered into the clamp in fact does change the angle..

I didn't think it would work based off of doing this same exact test on my older Hawk.. but it has the round ( barrel ) style clamps and they do move.. so it never made much difference on that saw last year when I did this test..  though that saw does cut a little more aggressive than my newer one in the 1st position..

Thank you for bringing this up as it gave me the opportunity to try this on my newer saw.. I cut out several stack cuts of ornaments today with no issues with the Hawk.. actually think it my cut faster than the DeWalt now simply because I can whip right around the sharp corners with the Hawk without stopping and backing out some before a sharp corner..    

[kmmcrafts]

43 minutes ago, tonylumps said:

Kevin Did you buy your Dewalt new And if so how many times did you have to rebuild it.I am looking at my Local CL for a cheap Dewalt to take apart and rebuild for a winter project 

Yes I did buy my saw new back in 2009.. I didn't do a whole lot of cutting with it at first.. ( more of a hobbyist ) so the first rebuild was 5 years after I got it.... well actually it wasn't a full rebuild... I just took it apart and greased it up.. Then a year later I only rebuilt the front portion of the saw.. and have taken it apart a couple more times just to re-grease since then.. The bearings at the back of the saw is original other than the one time I added grease to it.. Now.. that back portion is getting really noisy.. I have ordered all new sleeves and bearings for the whole saw.. and plan to do a full rebuild very soon... was going to do it this week or early next week.. but today I got slammed with a couple good sized orders off my website.. so now I will be working making saw dust instead..  

[tonylumps]

24 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

Yes I did buy my saw new back in 2009.. I didn't do a whole lot of cutting with it at first.. ( more of a hobbyist ) so the first rebuild was 5 years after I got it.... well actually it wasn't a full rebuild... I just took it apart and greased it up.. Then a year later I only rebuilt the front portion of the saw.. and have taken it apart a couple more times just to re-grease since then.. The bearings at the back of the saw is original other than the one time I added grease to it.. Now.. that back portion is getting really noisy.. I have ordered all new sleeves and bearings for the whole saw.. and plan to do a full rebuild very soon... was going to do it this week or early next week.. but today I got slammed with a couple good sized orders off my website.. so now I will be working making saw dust instead..  

Thanks Kevin I just checked The Bearing are about 75.00 I am going to have to buy that Dewalt a lot cheaper than i thought

[kmmcrafts]

24 minutes ago, tonylumps said:

Thanks Kevin I just checked The Bearing are about 75.00 I am going to have to buy that Dewalt a lot cheaper than i thought

Yeah, you'll also probably want to replace the bushings.. I just order my parts last month.. I ordered everything bearing bushing wise and also a blade clamp.. I think my lower one is spreading out wider.. as I had been starting to get some blade slippage..  I believe the cost for all was around $160-170.. not cheap really.. which is why I stress.. preventative maintenance.. I probably didn't need the new bearings and bushings for the front half of the saw.. because I've taken it apart a few times just to clean out old grease and re- grease it up.. no noise or noticeable wear there.. But figure since I was ordering parts I'd pay shipping just once.. Back part of the saw was quite worn when i took it apart years ago.. and since I didn't have the parts I just greased it and put it together.. held up a lot longer than I though it would.. but then the synthetic grease is awesome stuff too..   

[amazingkevin]

On 7/31/2017 at 9:33 PM, hotshot said:

I thought I had the Hawk trimmed out to it's lowest aggression setting, at least according to what I thought was factory default. When I tried to cut a coin, I had so much blade travel I couldn't see the lines. You ever have that rotten feeling in your stomach when something is wrong that you might not be  able to fix?

So I tried another approach to tuning it. Since the Hawk can run so very slowly, I could actually put the tool in the lower adjustment, and tune it while the saw was running. (I'm sure this isn't supported) There for a minute, I didn't think it was going to work, but then all the sudden, the saw fell into an almost motionless setting. You can imagine my relief. Anyway, of all my saws, the Hawk is the only one capable of being tuned on the Fly. The EX can sort of do this too, but you have to loosen the motor bolts, so I'm thinking that doesn't count.

 

So glad you found this out!You need it for coins.

 

[JimErn]

22 hours ago, Iguanadon said:

Hint of the day for folks... I have been using a business card along the back of the blade which has worked well since I don't own a small enough square to use.

An old credit card actually works better in my opinion.

Or make your own square, see the pic