Iguanadon Posted August 10, 2017 Report Share Posted August 10, 2017 I just heard from Nilus at BM and had a nice 20 minute chat with him. Long story short, the problem with my current saw is most likely the lower arm. After describing what he thought it was he mentioned that he'd bet that I could wiggle a certain thing and if it moved, then it was confirmation of what he thought, so I went out into the garage and sure enough that's what it was. So, the good news is we may have pinpointed the issue. He's making a fresh batch of lower arms and will ship one out next week. I'll update once it's in hand and installed on the machine. I'm still willing to continue trying to get this resolved rather than throwing in the towel. I really want this saw to work out for me. Iggy MTCowpoke22, jollyred and SCROLLSAW703 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjweb Posted August 10, 2017 Report Share Posted August 10, 2017 Glad to hear that you have a plan in place, hope all goes well, RJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iguanadon Posted August 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2017 Crap, didn't mean for this to be in Bragging Rights... my apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trackman Posted August 10, 2017 Report Share Posted August 10, 2017 With all the trouble you have had and now having to work on a new saw after waiting another week I would think you should be given a nice refund. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldmansbike Posted August 10, 2017 Report Share Posted August 10, 2017 Glad to hear you are getting this worked out. The Hawk is a good saw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotshot Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) For those that follow us into the Hawk family, I think it would be helpful to understand the support model. It's not great, or bad, but it is different. To me it feels like dealing with someone that has another full time job, or two. If you can reach them by phone (and you usually can within a few attempts/days), you are likely to talk to one of two ladies, both very nice, but one is much more knowledgeable (Nicole) than the other, so if you get the younger one, it will be pleasant, but maybe not productive. You might even get a call back from Nilus. An email might take a good while before it is answered. I have an email to Nilus asking if they would be willing to drill tap the clamps for the m6 x1, I think that was a couple of weeks back, so I'm taking that silence as a no :-) I suspect I won't hear back on that . . . . ever, but you never know. So all in all, I think I'm taking this away from my experience with them: These are seven good people that have multiple lines of business, including farming, making popcorn poppers, creating custom branded valve covers for the racing industry, making other woodworking tools, and etc. So, they are trying to juggle multiple businesses, and wearing different hats such as, the web guy is also a machinist, the Engineer is also an Owner, the lead support lady in a stay at home mom. Scroll saws are definately not their sole focus. They wear a lot of hats. I would not consider them "professional" in the same way you can always get hold of some inept college kid at Comcast, but with patience and time, you can carry on a conversation with them and hopefully troubleshoot your issues. If you are short of patience, Bushton isn't the company for you. Contrast that to Hegner and their U.S. support by Advanced. From my own experience, and general reputation, I get the sense that for that extra $1000, you get a saw that has very few adjustments and a lot less that actually goes wrong, which means their resources spend less time on the phone. You can always reach someone, and their support is also good. But, that saw cost more than my wife wedding ring, doesn't have top feeding ability, a ridiculously small table, much shorter arm than the Hawk (Mulitmax 22vs vs BM26), and more expensive parts. But, in turn . . . . it is pretty freaking worry/hassle free. Not saying I like Hawk better than Hegner, or vice versa, I am saying there is a give and take to either saw, especially in terms of cost and how they are supported. Hegner support is easy to contact and quick to respond, but if you want to "talk to the engineer", that guys speaks German and doesn't work for Advanced, and they haven't made any significant changes to that saw in 30 years or more. If you want to suggest an improvement for the Hawk, Bushton may or may not agree with your suggestion, but it will at least be heard. I still have some "challenges" with my setup, but I have a fleet of other saws, so I can afford to be patient as heck. I would loan Iggy one if he lived closer. I would say Iggy is learning a lot of patience as his volume is much closer to production cutting, and thus has a lot more riding on this saw than I do. Hopefully in the end, we both end up happy with our purchases. Edited August 11, 2017 by hotshot GrampaJim, SCROLLSAW703 and Mark SW 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodmaster1 Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) Great news, seems like they will go extra mile to take care of problems. You won't get that from they other major companies. With those companies you get support from someone flipping through a notebook. Edited August 11, 2017 by Woodmaster1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOE_M Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 13 minutes ago, Woodmaster1 said: Great news, seems like they will go extra mile to take care of problems. You won't get that from they other major companies. With those companies you get support from someone flipping through a notebook. I guess it's a glass half full, glass half empty kind of thing. I see it as spent $1700, got two bum saws and now waiting on a lower arm that he has to install himself. Blame it on shipping, blame it on whatever - doesn't matter to me. I don't care if it comes on a slow-boat from China, or personally delivered by the owner of the little made-in-USA ma & pa operation - if I spent $1700 on a saw, I don't expect to get two lemons. A little more effort put into the building and shipping would be a lot less time that Nilus has to spend on the phone dealing with unhappy customers. I'm sure there are those who disagree and think that this company is still God's Gift to Scrollsawing because they're such a small operation doing this for the love of it or whatever, and hey - that's great, to each his own. I do hope Iggy ends up - soon - with a saw that works the way he wants/deserves. Iguanadon and Scrappile 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappile Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) Doesn't seem like you should have to work on a new saw,,, however, with their help, it is a learning experience. The more you learn about the saw, the more comfortable you will be with it. Just kidding..... but... you own a DeWalt, you must know how to work on a saw..... er Chevy.. And Hotshot, I somewhat agree with you, however, I would never expect this on the 2nd most expensive saw one can buy. Let us not make too many excuses for the maker/seller. If they want to sell that level of a saw, they have to step up. I don't care how many things go on in their lives. They are trying to sell a professional grade piece of equipment. How many companies would be as patient as Iggy has been?? I'm not a company but I would have sent the saw back and got my money back, spent it with someone else. Just my opinion. I had trouble when I first bought my Hegner (it is a used demo saw). But I knew and they knew it was operator problems not the saws, but Advance Machinery responded to my questions in full force. Immediately and stuck with me until I had it figured out. I had problems with my Seyco, and Seyco responded immediately and followed through. I think Seyco is a pretty small family company... That is how it should be. Would I expect that kind of response from a big company like DeWalt, or Delta,,,, nope, I am nothing but a little pin prick to them.. Just saying. Edited August 11, 2017 by Scrappile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotshot Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scrappile said: .... I would never expect this on the 2nd most expensive saw one can buy. Let us not make too many excuses for the maker/seller. If they want to sell that level of a saw, they have to step up. .... Yep, my intent was not to make excuses as much as explain the reality of their support experience. Better to go in knowing what to expect. On the Hegner, the body is cast, and everything pretty well locked in. On the Hawk, there are adjustments for the table in front, in back, on the motor, and where the frame attached to the stand. Wonder if they wouldn't be better off drilling/threading perfectly aligned holes that won't move. Edited August 11, 2017 by hotshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Monk Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 This subject is really bothersome to me. I am definitely buying a new saw this fall. I want something that will last me a long time. I am a top feeder. I can't even imagine bottom feeding. I can't imagine standing one my head getting a blade through a #60 hole. I really don't even care what the saw cost...........I just want a saw that will last and I am happy with. Scrappile 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappile Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Dave Monk said: This subject is really bothersome to me. I am definitely buying a new saw this fall. I want something that will last me a long time. I am a top feeder. I can't even imagine bottom feeding. I can't imagine standing one my head getting a blade through a #60 hole. I really don't even care what the saw cost...........I just want a saw that will last and I am happy with. Ha, I feed up through #68's and #70's from the bottom all the time. Darn I wish we lived closer so we could get together.... I'd teach you the way things are met to be.... I cannot imagine feeding from the top, have tried and tried over the years and it is just unnatural in the world of scrolling!! But, yes I agree this is troublesome, no matter which way you feed. Competition is a good thing, I want all scroll saw manufactures to succeed. Edited August 11, 2017 by Scrappile SCROLLSAW703 and Dave Monk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjweb Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 Yes I agree with Randy, it though for a small family business to succeed in this world today, but customer support is the service that separates them. I myself if I was waiting for this saw to be fixed, and was taking this long, I would return and move on to a different saw and maybe in a couple years go back to them and see if things get straightened out, RJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotshot Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dave Monk said: I am definitely buying a new saw this fall..... Dave, do you live in Oberlin? If so, a 3 hr drive will get you a face to face with Bushton. I would call Bushton to arrange a visit, and go down and see a BM for yourself. If you like what you see, you might be able to haul that same saw home. I would go with you, if I lived closer. If you do go, take some pictures. I think everyone would like to see what this little operation looks like. I need to get a video up showing my top feed process for the saw, which might make it easier for you if you were to test drive a BM. There is a little trick that makes feeding that bottom clamp trivial, but it really needs to be shown to be understood. Edited August 11, 2017 by hotshot Dave Monk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Monk Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, hotshot said: Dave, do you live in Oberlin? If so, a 3 hr drive will get you a face to face with Bushton. I would call Bushton to arrange a visit, and go down and see a BM for yourself. If you like what you see, you might be able to haul that same saw home. I would go with you, if I lived closer. If you do go, take some pictures. I think everyone would like to see what this little operation looks like. I need to get a video up showing my top feed process for the saw, which might make it easier for you if you were to test drive a BM. There is a little trick that makes feeding that bottom clamp trivial, but it really needs to be shown to be understood. In the summers I live in Bloomington, IL...the winters I live in Ft. Worth, TX. Ft. Worth is about a 6 1/2 hour drive to Bushton, KS. I will plan to make a trip up there around the first of November. Edited August 11, 2017 by Dave Monk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotshot Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Dave Monk said: In the summers I live in Bloomington, IL...the winters I live in Ft. Worth, TX. Ft. Worth is about a 6 1/2 hour drive to Bushton, KS. I will plan to make a trip up there around the first of November. Oh, I had looked at that map on your profile, thus the Oberlin reference :-). I bet the forum is just placing folks mid U.S. if they don't specify. 6.5 hours will be quite the drive. If you get a new saw that you get to QA yourself, I think that would be well worth it. Edited August 11, 2017 by hotshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolf Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 As usual some interesting discussions. Good points all around. And as I always say up front I am a loyal Hawk proponent. Having said that I am very glad Nilus is stepping up to take care of this but here are my concerns. If Nilus knew where to look then it is a problem that has surfaced before and if the lower arm has the ability to wiggle then something was not machined to spec or another part was undersized or possibly even wonky bearings. It is very easy to speculate on my part as I am not physically with the saw. But my point is that it doesn't matter who builds a saw but what does matter is that final QA , test run, wiggle test etc. before it goes to the customer. Small multitasking staff or not Hawk has to be very careful with this, our scrolling community is too small and well connected through social media. Iggy I am impressed with your willingness to work with Hawk I truly hope that in the end you have the awesome saw you certainly deserve and expected. Iguanadon and SCROLLSAW703 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazingkevin Posted August 12, 2017 Report Share Posted August 12, 2017 On 8/10/2017 at 3:04 PM, Iguanadon said: I just heard from Nilus at BM and had a nice 20 minute chat with him. Long story short, the problem with my current saw is most likely the lower arm. After describing what he thought it was he mentioned that he'd bet that I could wiggle a certain thing and if it moved, then it was confirmation of what he thought, so I went out into the garage and sure enough that's what it was. So, the good news is we may have pinpointed the issue. He's making a fresh batch of lower arms and will ship one out next week. I'll update once it's in hand and installed on the machine. I'm still willing to continue trying to get this resolved rather than throwing in the towel. I really want this saw to work out for me. Iggy Sounds like marriage problems already with the saw,lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmmcrafts Posted August 13, 2017 Report Share Posted August 13, 2017 Well glad to see they have found the problem and will be helping you get is fixed.. At least changing the lower arm on these is quite straight forward.. not like the dewalt where you have to disassemble the whole saw to get to the link arms, LOL.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjweb Posted August 13, 2017 Report Share Posted August 13, 2017 Is hawk going to be at Midwest show? RJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredfret Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 No Bushton/Hawk is not going to the Midwest Trade show. Half of the staf are dealing with a new baby. They are also not going to the Ks State fair this year. Fredfret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCROLLSAW703 Posted August 17, 2017 Report Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) I agree Rolf. I live 3 - 3 1/2 hours from bushton, & drove down to get mine. I traded my 220 in on my bm. That was a year ago. Fortunately, I've not had any issues with mine, & i am a loyal Hawk user as well. I spend several hours on mine, & wouldn't own any other major name brand for what I do. I am a bottom feeder. My shop has a wood floor, & I have the saw on casters. I have a little bit of vibration, but it's from sitting on the wood floor. My lathes are the same way. I discussed this with Nicole & Nilus before we made the sale, & decided it wouldn't be enough to bother me. To date, I've yet to break a blade with the BM unless I happen to bend a tiny blade & break it myself. Otherwise, no blades broken during cutting. The aggression setting fascinates me. I cut my own feathers, detailed projects, as you & Randy do. I've learned alot by using the aggression adjustment. It makes the cutting so much easier & faster, & lots cleaner cuts. Less fuzzies to fool with! The saw itself has a simple design, but takes time to get to know it. I believe Iggys issues will be solved, but It bothers me it has taken the length of time it has, & inconvenience it has put on Iggy. Not to mention his money spent. I am personally acquainted with Nilus, Scott, & Nicole. They are wonderful folks, & know their equipment. They are a busy operation. And very personable. They are more than willing to go that extra mile to do whatever it takes to help solve your issues. On the other hand, being a small company, I, like you, Rolf, think this is not a good situation for them & I feel like Nilus knew more than he is telling. Edited August 17, 2017 by SCROLLSAW703 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iguanadon Posted August 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2017 See my update within the GENERAL SCROLL SAWING forum... good news, so far. Further testing to be conducted over the next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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