Color me surprised - DeWalt replacement

[cnkcustoms02]

I'd like to try a seyco one of these days

[Rockytime]

Hi Iggy, So glad DeWalt really came through for you. I am, however, disappointed in your experience with the Hawk. I have two older Hawks. When I say old I mean OLD! I have a 14" single speed Hawk, serial #314, yes 314. It was made to be used on a ShopSmith. Knew nothing about hawks when I bought it so I powered it with a small motor and it cuts flawlessly. My older 216 VS without the front tensioning feature also cuts flawlessly. No wiggle, no shake, just sturdy as a rock. I hope Bushton can resolve the problem, it not just for you but also for others. Perhaps things are no longer made with the same care, but I doubt that. I don't pay much attention to other saws, only that at 79 I doubt I'll be buying much more machinery. Glad you have been whole by DeWalt.

Kindest Regards, Les

[hotshot]

I understand how getting burned by the Canadian Harbor Freight Equivalent might burn folks, but still, It doesn't make sense that the Tawain manufacturer would intentionally drop their standards to make a saw for King of lesser quality.  King does not make that saw, they re-brand that saw.  

King's pricing for this saw isn't in line with the pricing of their other tools, right?  I know, the Harbor freight junk scrollsaw is very inexpensive.

Then finally,  Woodcraft certainly isn't in the habit of selling Harbor Freight quality tools.  I would be shocked if these saws are of lesser quality that the EXs this same manufacturer made before them, but you never know.

------Randy  

Edited September 14, 2017 by hotshot

[hotshot]

For those of you that like to research/dig, get a load of this . . . and checkout the combined weight of product shipped:

http://www.tradesparq.com/Customs/88281585/Customs-Data-Precision-Glbal-Incorporation#sthash.RbSpAF30.dpbs

Now, for that same manufacturer, notice where this one is headed . . . . . 

(adding screen shot of detail from yet another source, but still tracking that same Manufacturer via Physical Address)

 

 

So, that Manufacturer led to both KMS and Seyco.  Folks I think we know who the manufacturer is:  Precision Global Corporation In Taiwan (address is:  2f No 1 Ln 225 Minquan Rd West Dist Tawain).  I'm not a "subscriber" to these research sources, so they only let me see a few records, but I suspect if I did pay for more records, I believe I would find shipment information leading to Jet, Axminster, Carbatec, and Pegas.

Edited September 15, 2017 by hotshot

[WayneG]

3 hours ago, hotshot said:

For this of you that like to research/dig, get a load of this . . . and checkout the combined weight of product shipped:

http://www.tradesparq.com/Customs/88281585/Customs-Data-Precision-Glbal-Incorporation#sthash.RbSpAF30.dpbs

Now, for that same manufacturer, notice where this one is headed . . . . . 

(adding screen shot of detail from yet another source, but still tracking that same Manufacturer via Physical Address)

 

 

So, that Manufacturer led to both KMS and Seyco.  Folks I think we know who the manufacturer is:  Precision Global Corporation In Taiwan (address is:  2f No 1 Ln 225 Minquan Rd West Dist Tawain).  I'm not a "subscriber" to these research source, so they only let me see a few records, but I suspect if I did pay for more records, I believe I would find shipment information leading to Jet, Axminster, Carbatec, and Pegas.

so I think you are saying that Sayco has at least one scroll saw for sale that is manufactured there as well as King via KMS and that must be the Excelsior. The 22 Jet that Sayco sells looks like extremely similar to the excelsior/king or old excalibur....This does come in line with what the King Canada guy told me about being manufactured in Taiwain. Does anyone know the manufacturer that the excalibur was made in previously?

interesting find and good detective work

[hotshot]

29 minutes ago, WayneG said:

..... Does anyone know the manufacturer that the excalibur was made in previously?

If the vendors are telling the truth, the saws they sell were made in the same factory that built the EX saws.  I believe them.

Edited September 15, 2017 by hotshot

[WayneG]

25 minutes ago, hotshot said:

If the vendors are telling the truth, the saws they sell were made in the same factory that built the EX saws.  I believe them.

Ya I also believe them. Will be interesting to see what the excelsior does, I have to make room for it in my shop. time to get rid of some crap....

 

 

[Oldmansbike]

Iggy Have you been using the same lower blade holder in all your trials with the Hawk? I wonder if that could be the problem. Just a thought. 

[JimErn]

If I had to guess, I would check the alignment vertically from the bottom blade holder to the top, it looks like the blade is out of plumb in relation to the arms not the table.  The top clamp appears to be similar to the excaliber type, the set screw might not be aligned with the bottom blade holder.  Or with the table off, Maybe the arms are slightly off plumb

[kmmcrafts]

I agree with ROLF in that it looks like the tension isn't staying consistent throughout the blade stroke..

My 226 Ultra was doing this same type of thing and I kept breaking blades.. turned out to be I just needed to turn in the very small hex screw on the underside of the upper arm...just under the head where the cam lever is.. This was also creating a racket and excessive vibration at any speed much higher than half way up the dial..  I just did this adjustment about a week or two ago and so far the issue seems to be gone.. I do not know if the newer saws have this hex screw or not.. 

 

[Iguanadon]

On 9/16/2017 at 0:37 PM, Oldmansbike said:

Iggy Have you been using the same lower blade holder in all your trials with the Hawk? I wonder if that could be the problem. Just a thought. 

Yes, I only have one lower blade holder.

[Iguanadon]

4 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I agree with ROLF in that it looks like the tension isn't staying consistent throughout the blade stroke..

My 226 Ultra was doing this same type of thing and I kept breaking blades.. turned out to be I just needed to turn in the very small hex screw on the underside of the upper arm...just under the head where the cam lever is.. This was also creating a racket and excessive vibration at any speed much higher than half way up the dial..  I just did this adjustment about a week or two ago and so far the issue seems to be gone.. I do not know if the newer saws have this hex screw or not.. 

 

OK Kevin, and others, you guys may be on to something... I just went out and eyeballed the blade and I can definitely see that it is not perfectly plum.  I actually have the table tilted about a full degree to one side.  I just figured the scale was off or something when I was setting the blade plum to the table.  

It appears to be pretty sizable of an angle, now I have to figure out how to compensate for that.  I'll look at various set screws etc.  Any ideas (along with pictures please) of things to look at or try will be appreciated.

SSV is an amazing community.  The amount of knowledge and general intelligence is amazing.  Thanks for helping poor, dumb Iggy figure out how to fix his saw.

[Iguanadon]

Update:  Using just the set screw in the lower blade holder, I was able to shift the blade over to where it is now plum and my table is accurate at exactly 0 degrees.  The set screw was actually rather loose and I think it was working itself out and that's why the blade wobble and my periodic issues with puzzle pieces not sliding in and out was the result.  I put a dab of medium strength loctite on the set screw to hold it in place.

The blade wobble is now limited to only when the saw is running at full speed.  I knock it back a little and there's no wobble.  Major improvement.

I'll have to give the saw another try in the near future.  Now that it's not in my cutting "room" and is just in the garage, I'm going to have to wait for the summer heat to break before I can sit in the main garage and cut.

If there are any other adjustments anyone can think of that I should check, let me know.

[kmmcrafts]

45 minutes ago, Iguanadon said:

Update:  Using just the set screw in the lower blade holder, I was able to shift the blade over to where it is now plum and my table is accurate at exactly 0 degrees.  The set screw was actually rather loose and I think it was working itself out and that's why the blade wobble and my periodic issues with puzzle pieces not sliding in and out was the result.  I put a dab of medium strength loctite on the set screw to hold it in place.

The blade wobble is now limited to only when the saw is running at full speed.  I knock it back a little and there's no wobble.  Major improvement.

I'll have to give the saw another try in the near future.  Now that it's not in my cutting "room" and is just in the garage, I'm going to have to wait for the summer heat to break before I can sit in the main garage and cut.

If there are any other adjustments anyone can think of that I should check, let me know.

I've never yet bought a saw that didn't need tuned up new or used.. My DeWalt  right out of the box was all out of wack.. I've always had to adjust those hex screws ( on the opposite side of the thumb screw ).. My Hawk 226 ultra was brand new still boxed.. and I had been having issues with the blade flexing during running.. but the tension was perfectly tight when saw was stopped..  it vibrated much more than my older Hawk 220 and the blade wobble was much like what your video showed.. and I kept breaking blades.. it turns out.. to be the little hex screw under the top arm that tightens against the tension lever handle.. on the under side.. I would have thought this would have been set by Hawk before they sent it out.. But I guess not.. I really think your saw just needs a good going through and tune everything up.. Like I said.. they aren't set up and ready to run right out of the box.. same thing with my bandsaw and table saw... so why would a scroll saw be any different..

If I was you I'd also check for that hex screw on the under side of the tension lever.. I've been chasing this since May when I bought my saw.. That hex ( set ) screw should be turned in until it hits the tension rod and then just a bit more of a turn.. You can then insert a blade and test the tension on the blade until it feels like the lever is locking down good.. Probably should read the instructions on doing this in my blade breaking thread from a week or so back.. as I am going off my memory.. which isn't all that great, LOL

A lot of this stuff I feel like should be in the manuals.. I'm not sure what is in the newer saws manuals.. but these older saw manuals don't have a lot of info in them that they should have.. Same thing about the DeWalt manuals.. never recall seeing any mention of adjusting tuning the saw.. just how to assemble it.. and maintenance.. nothing about tuning the blade etc.. 

[Iguanadon]

2 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I've never yet bought a saw that didn't need tuned up new or used.. My DeWalt  right out of the box was all out of wack.. I've always had to adjust those hex screws ( on the opposite side of the thumb screw ).. My Hawk 226 ultra was brand new still boxed.. and I had been having issues with the blade flexing during running.. but the tension was perfectly tight when saw was stopped..  it vibrated much more than my older Hawk 220 and the blade wobble was much like what your video showed.. and I kept breaking blades.. it turns out.. to be the little hex screw under the top arm that tightens against the tension lever handle.. on the under side.. I would have thought this would have been set by Hawk before they sent it out.. But I guess not.. I really think your saw just needs a good going through and tune everything up.. Like I said.. they aren't set up and ready to run right out of the box.. same thing with my bandsaw and table saw... so why would a scroll saw be any different..

If I was you I'd also check for that hex screw on the under side of the tension lever.. I've been chasing this since May when I bought my saw.. That hex ( set ) screw should be turned in until it hits the tension rod and then just a bit more of a turn.. You can then insert a blade and test the tension on the blade until it feels like the lever is locking down good.. Probably should read the instructions on doing this in my blade breaking thread from a week or so back.. as I am going off my memory.. which isn't all that great, LOL

A lot of this stuff I feel like should be in the manuals.. I'm not sure what is in the newer saws manuals.. but these older saw manuals don't have a lot of info in them that they should have.. Same thing about the DeWalt manuals.. never recall seeing any mention of adjusting tuning the saw.. just how to assemble it.. and maintenance.. nothing about tuning the blade etc.. 

Yeah, a list of "Things to Check and Calibrate" would be nice to have with the saw out of the box.  I don't mind adjusting, I just have to know how/what to adjust.  There are dozens of little things I wouldn't even know are adjustable.

But I've had good luck with my 4 DeWalt's... pull out of the box, bolt onto the stand, slap a blade in it and start cutting.

[cnkcustoms02]

Maybe you are on to something iggy if you get it dialed in maybe let the hawk people know everything you had to do and suggest to them a list for troubleshooting I think with all the cats in here you all could come up with a rather comprehensive list

[Oldmansbike]

There is ,another set screw in the upper blade holder on the left side that might be out of whack too.

[Iguanadon]

2 minutes ago, Oldmansbike said:

There is ,another set screw in the upper blade holder on the left side that might be out of whack too.

Thanks Dale, I checked that one and it seems to be OK.  Now I just need to find the other 82 hidden screws and adjustable things.  ;-)

[Mark1]

Wow,  Think about that.  A $1500 saw and they give you a list to trouble shoot?

I'm thinking that's a non starter.

Mark

 

[Iguanadon]

4 minutes ago, Mark1 said:

Wow,  Think about that.  A $1500 saw and they give you a list to trouble shoot?

I'm thinking that's a non starter.

Mark

 

Ha!  Good point.  Maybe if they word it nicely... "Due to movement during shipping, some settings on your new precision machine may require checking and/or adjusting.  This is normal and we encourage you to use this checklist before beginning cutting."

[Scrappile]

Ya, I have never had to "adjust" any scroll saw that was shipped to me.  If it is a shipping issue, the box would show it and if the box is beat up it should not be accepted.  Hawk needs to get this all straighten out or they will go down the tube.  That would be very very sad.

[kmmcrafts]

37 minutes ago, Mark1 said:

Wow,  Think about that.  A $1500 saw and they give you a list to trouble shoot?

I'm thinking that's a non starter.

Mark

 

Guess that depends upon how you want to look at it... Many people do not know how to tune up a scroll saw.. just my opinion here but.. if the person has to "set it up and tune it themselves" in the beginning ( per good instructions ) maybe when something does gets out of whack.. they might actually know how to fix it.. or at least check it out....rather than blaming it on the brand of saw or badmouthing a certain brand because of idiotic user error.. This list in the manual would also prevent a lot of customer service calls and returns..

Personally...I think a brand new $1500 saw should come with the mini square and a  how to video of how to set up and tune it.. some of the things are in fact online on the Hawk web site videos.. but not all of these little adjustments are..but should be..

 

Edit to add.. The problem with this theory is that many of the saw manufacturers know how to build the saw.. but many of them also do not know how to tune a saw or use it for that matter.. so how would they know?    

Edited September 17, 2017 by kmmcrafts

[JOE_M]

Sounds like great reasoning. I'll bet there are just as many people who don't know how to do a simple car tune-up. Let's cut the auto manufacturers some slack and let them ship cars that are "almost" ready to go, just need fitted to the driver. After we drive that brand new car off the lot we can spend the next day with a Chilton's manual re-gapping spark plugs, tightening the belt, adjusting toe-in/out on the alignment. Sure that maintenance shouldn't need done for another 60-100K miles, but if we learn how to do it now...

 

[kmmcrafts]

8 minutes ago, JOE_M said:

Sounds like great reasoning. I'll bet there are just as many people who don't know how to do a simple car tune-up. Let's cut the auto manufacturers some slack and let them ship cars that are "almost" ready to go, just need fitted to the driver. After we drive that brand new car off the lot we can spend the next day with a Chilton's manual re-gapping spark plugs, tightening the belt, adjusting toe-in/out on the alignment. Sure that maintenance shouldn't need done for another 60-100K miles, but if we learn how to do it now...

 

Actually they should be shipped with no fluids, and tires.. then when they get a flat they should know how to change the tire.. when it leaks a fluid they should know what color fluid goes where.. and put in the right color blinker fluid 

I see both sides to the story.. but I feel all scroll sawers should know how to make the blade square and plumb etc.. same as with cars.. every driver should know how to check fluids , tire pressure, and change wiper blades, lights etc..

[amazingkevin]

On 9/13/2017 at 4:06 PM, Iguanadon said:

So... the 2nd DeWalt that I wore out was still under warranty, so when I had my big event near Raleigh a couple of weeks ago, I took it to the DeWalt repair center in Raleigh (which is the closest one to me, 155 miles).  I dropped it off, the guy said they'd look it in about 5 days.  When I hadn't heard anything after 10 working days I called this past Friday, he looked it up, said he has only 1 guy that works on scroll saws and he'd work on it Monday.  No big deal, I'm in no rush.

Well, UPS just pulled up and Mrs. Iggy said "Did you order something heavy again?"  "Nope, not this time..."  Lo and behold the UPS guy rolls up with a brand new DW788 on his cart... I guess the technician looked at mine Monday figured it was dead and had a new one sent to me.  No phone call, no nothing, just SURPRISE! A new saw.  Finally, a nice surprise for Iggy.

A very pleasant surprise as I've decided I'm going to stick with DeWalt's and just use 'em til I wear 'em out and then buy a new one.  The Hawk just isn't working out, it's going back to Kansas at some point.  I just have to figure out how to box it up to send back.

Dremil sent me a new saw on warranty which wore out in 60 days,go figure.