Brand New Hawk...Junk Bearing..Now Broke..

[kmmcrafts]

As many of you know.. I have a new "Old" 1998 226 Hawk ultra.. This was still boxed when I bought it in May 2017..  Over the last couple of weeks using this it started developing a blade wobble.. almost identical to what Iggy's video was showing.. over the last week I have tweaked and adjusted everything I could think of.. finally last night I started taking things apart... turns out.. the bearing on the connecting rod (upper bearing on rod from motor to lower arm...lower arm end) doesn't spin freely and felt gritty when trying to spin it with my finger.. It's a sealed bearing (1616 rs ) so I popped the seals out.. there was absolutely no grease whatsoever in there.. I used to work in a bearing supply store... this happens a lot more than you would think.. makes me wonder about Iggys saw issue's.. could be a possibility..

So, I needed to take this connecting rod off.. ( yeah right ) you can hardly get room in there to get to the motor end of the rod.. so.. take out the power switch / speed control box.. not much room for that either.. this is where it gets bad.. I tried to pull the knob off the speed control for a little more wiggle room...snap.. broke the speed control.. long story but I am not able to get the hex screw out on the motor end.. not really knowing whether it might be left hand threaded or not.. but the real issue is trying to hold the thing from spinning while I put some torque on the hex screw.. cannot find any slot or spot to lock the motor from spinning..

Anyway.. I started putting things back together and was just going to soak the bearing down good with penetrating oil and I did get it working fairly free and packed it with synthetic grease.. put it back together to try it out.. but now that the knob broke off the speed control it's stuck on the lowest speed setting LOL.. so.. look down the hole of where the knob goes.. a slot look so I put in a straight screw driver ( saw unplugged of coarse LOL ).. spin it to to the other direction.. no change 

So now... finally.. my question.. anyone ever buy a speed controller for these? Price? I know HAWK sells these as a unit.. that said I believe if I can find the controller itself I can solder the new wires leads myself.. I just need to find the part, LOL ... I'll take it back apart and see if I can get any info of that speed controller.. I have a local electric motor repair shop not to far.. I know they will be able to fix me up..

BTW.. for what it's worth.. the saw is a 1998.. Hawk was using the made in China bearings in the saws back then too.. I know Hotshot mentioned a USA made saw with as he expected.. China made parts.. 

Also... while on this topic.. any tips to getting that hex screw out of the motor? I still intend to change the bearings.. they are not even a high grade China bearing LOL.. I think if I take the motor from the saw and put it on the workbench I can probably get it out.. just a PIA to work under the saw..

 

      

[OCtoolguy]

4 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

As many of you know.. I have a new "Old" 1998 226 Hawk ultra.. This was still boxed when I bought it in May 2017..  Over the last couple of weeks using this it started developing a blade wobble.. almost identical to what Iggy's video was showing.. over the last week I have tweaked and adjusted everything I could think of.. finally last night I started taking things apart... turns out.. the bearing on the connecting rod (upper bearing on rod from motor to lower arm...lower arm end) doesn't spin freely and felt gritty when trying to spin it with my finger.. It's a sealed bearing (1616 rs ) so I popped the seals out.. there was absolutely no grease whatsoever in there.. I used to work in a bearing supply store... this happens a lot more than you would think.. makes me wonder about Iggys saw issue's.. could be a possibility..

So, I needed to take this connecting rod off.. ( yeah right ) you can hardly get room in there to get to the motor end of the rod.. so.. take out the power switch / speed control box.. not much room for that either.. this is where it gets bad.. I tried to pull the knob off the speed control for a little more wiggle room...snap.. broke the speed control.. long story but I am not able to get the hex screw out on the motor end.. not really knowing whether it might be left hand threaded or not.. but the real issue is trying to hold the thing from spinning while I put some torque on the hex screw.. cannot find any slot or spot to lock the motor from spinning..

Anyway.. I started putting things back together and was just going to soak the bearing down good with penetrating oil and I did get it working fairly free and packed it with synthetic grease.. put it back together to try it out.. but now that the knob broke off the speed control it's stuck on the lowest speed setting LOL.. so.. look down the hole of where the knob goes.. a slot look so I put in a straight screw driver ( saw unplugged of coarse LOL ).. spin it to to the other direction.. no change 

So now... finally.. my question.. anyone ever buy a speed controller for these? Price? I know HAWK sells these as a unit.. that said I believe if I can find the controller itself I can solder the new wires leads myself.. I just need to find the part, LOL ... I'll take it back apart and see if I can get any info of that speed controller.. I have a local electric motor repair shop not to far.. I know they will be able to fix me up..

BTW.. for what it's worth.. the saw is a 1998.. Hawk was using the made in China bearings in the saws back then too.. I know Hotshot mentioned a USA made saw with as he expected.. China made parts.. 

Also... while on this topic.. any tips to getting that hex screw out of the motor? I still intend to change the bearings.. they are not even a high grade China bearing LOL.. I think if I take the motor from the saw and put it on the workbench I can probably get it out.. just a PIA to work under the saw..

 

      

I know this may not be too helpful but might it be easier to work on the saw if you were to turn it upside down and place it between two sawhorses? I had a saw similar to yours that I bought new in 1986 so I know what you are working with. It just seems like you should be able to turn it over and get it up where you can work on it. I hope this helps.

 

Ray

 

[Rockytime]

A Horrible Fright router controller for less than $15 will work as long as your motor uses brushes. I use them on several tools. The hex screw I can't help with.

[JOE_M]

Can you post a pic? I doubt it's a left-hand thread, not for something that simple - they're usually reserved for bigger things like holding chucks to hand drills.

It may have loctite on it although a company that skips grease on bearings probably isn't going to take the extra 2 seconds to squeeze a bit of loctite on a screw either. Is that all that's busted is the adjustment knob?

 

[kmmcrafts]

3 hours ago, octoolguy said:

I know this may not be too helpful but might it be easier to work on the saw if you were to turn it upside down and place it between two sawhorses? I had a saw similar to yours that I bought new in 1986 so I know what you are working with. It just seems like you should be able to turn it over and get it up where you can work on it. I hope this helps.

 

Ray

 

Great idea.. I may try that.. while this thing is super heavy.. I'd need a helper to flip it upside down.. and most times there isn't any helpers around, LOL.. 

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, Rockytime said:

A Horrible Fright router controller for less than $15 will work as long as your motor uses brushes. I use them on several tools. The hex screw I can't help with.

That might work for this.. I'll have to check to see if it has brushes or not.. Thank you for the idea though..  

[kmmcrafts]

19 minutes ago, JOE_M said:

Can you post a pic? I doubt it's a left-hand thread, not for something that simple - they're usually reserved for bigger things like holding chucks to hand drills.

It may have loctite on it although a company that skips grease on bearings probably isn't going to take the extra 2 seconds to squeeze a bit of loctite on a screw either. Is that all that's busted is the adjustment knob?

 

I'll see if I can get a picture the next time I'm out in the shop.. Don't think the same company that made the Hawk made the bearing too.. so I would assume there could be loc-tite on it.. Most all of the scroll saws I've worked on had left handed threads on the motor shaft.. this would be the bolt / cap screw I'm needing to get out.. but trying to hold the motor from spinning while trying to break loose the allen cap screw is slightly difficult.. I may either saw the allen / hex wrench down so I can put it into a socket / ratchet.. or buy a set of allen / hex sockets.. then I have something with some leverage to work with too, then my only issue will be trying to keep the motor from spinning.. which I may be able to use some vise grips to clamp onto the connecting rod.. hopefully.. 

The knob and shaft broke.. so it's the whole assembly.. I knew it was stuck pretty good.. so I gave it a harder pull.. once it was off... on the bottom side of the knob.. I see it had a set screw in it.. had I seen that I wouldn't have broke it.. what I get for working in the almost dark corner on my shop I suppose.. LOL..

 

 

[OCtoolguy]

3 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Great idea.. I may try that.. while this thing is super heavy.. I'd need a helper to flip it upside down.. and most times there isn't any helpers around, LOL.. 

I don't recall mine being THAT heavy but I was 40 years younger then. Oh well, it was an idea. Maybe you can find someone to help you.

 

 

[SCROLLSAW703]

the same exact thing just happened to mine, km. the bottom bearing in the pitman arm went out. Severe vibration showed up. So, i took the top bolt out, used a small crescent on the counter weight, took the allen wrench & got the bottom bolt out. if you're under the saw, facing the table, pull the allen wrench towards you to loosen the bottom bolt. no need to turn it upside down. you'll create more issues for yourself.

when I got mine apart, sure thing. the bottom bearing seal was out & slingin' grease. I called Bushton & they sent me a new pitman arm with bearings installed. I still had some warranty left. my saw just is a year old. If i had to buy it, it ain't but $10. I've spent enough time around equipment to know if those bearings aren't pressed in right, you'll wreck a seal in the bearing......again. what's it's worth? 

[kmmcrafts]

3 minutes ago, SCROLLSAW703 said:

the same exact thing just happened to mine, km. the bottom bearing in the pitman arm went out. Severe vibration showed up. So, i took the top bolt out, used a small crescent on the counter weight, took the allen wrench & got the bottom bolt out. if you're under the saw, facing the table, pull the allen wrench towards you to loosen the bottom bolt. no need to turn it upside down. you'll create more issues for yourself.

when I got mine apart, sure thing. the bottom bearing seal was out & slingin' grease. I called Bushton & they sent me a new pitman arm with bearings installed. I still had some warranty left. my saw just is a year old. If i had to buy it, it ain't but $10. I've spent enough time around equipment to know if those bearings aren't pressed in right, you'll wreck a seal in the bearing......again. what's it's worth? 

Must be mine has a different counter weight.. I have a big square block that has 4 cap screws bolted right to the motor.. the counter weight is encased in this I think.. I'll have to look it over again in some better light.. regardless.. it looks to me that the eccentric / counter weight is all encased into this external block.. My seals for the bearing was in tact.. I took them out carefully to try to clean them up and add grease.. I'll just press new bearings into this...if / when I get it apart.. But now.. I am more concerned about the VS control as the saw isn't even usable to me on the lowest setting, LOL  

[kmmcrafts]

10 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

I don't recall mine being THAT heavy but I was 40 years younger then. Oh well, it was an idea. Maybe you can find someone to help you.

 

 

according to the specs in the book.. it weighs in at 108 lbs.. Not sure if that is with the stand or just the saw.. either way as large as it is.. flipping that over at that weight and size.. I'm sure I could do it.. but I'd be afraid to by myself.. hate to drop a new saw upside down.. I'm sure with that weight.. It'd break / bend something..  

[hotshot]

3 hours ago, SCROLLSAW703 said:

the same exact thing just happened to mine, km. the bottom bearing in the pitman arm went out. Severe vibration showed up. So, i took the top bolt out, used a small crescent on the counter weight, took the allen wrench & got the bottom bolt out. if you're under the saw, facing the table, pull the allen wrench towards you to loosen the bottom bolt. no need to turn it upside down. you'll create more issues for yourself.

when I got mine apart, sure thing. the bottom bearing seal was out & slingin' grease. I called Bushton & they sent me a new pitman arm with bearings installed. I still had some warranty left. my saw just is a year old. If i had to buy it, it ain't but $10. I've spent enough time around equipment to know if those bearings aren't pressed in right, you'll wreck a seal in the bearing......again. what's it's worth? 

When I had my BM apart a few weeks ago, I didn't check anything out in the pitman arm.  I'll just hope those are in good shape.

However, I did check the bearings out (in the arms), they didn't feel right, not turning freely, but being a bit gritty.  I oiled them and they seemed to loosen up a bit.  But still, this didn't seem right, so today I ordered four new bearing to replace them all.  The specific size bearings (for the arms) for this saw are only made by a couple of manufacturers.  As far as I can tell, only bearings available in the size for the BM is the  "Nice 6031/v4" and the ones Bushton sells which were the "General Bearing Corporation 4455-00" 

I was going to try the "Nice" brand, hoping they might be a little higher quantity, but my source was out of stock, so I went with the original GBC brand which were only $2.50 each, which is sort of concerning in of itself.  I was hoping to find a double sealed bearing in this size, but no luck.  The ball bearings are not exposed, but not what I would considered sealed either.  I'm afraid dirt/dust can get inside and put me right back to my current state.

So here is a question for you all, should I be trying to add grease/oil/lubricant  to the bearings before putting them in?  Not sure whatever was done originally was very effective.

------Randy

Edited October 1, 2017 by hotshot

[amazingkevin]

7 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I'll see if I can get a picture the next time I'm out in the shop.. Don't think the same company that made the Hawk made the bearing too.. so I would assume there could be loc-tite on it.. Most all of the scroll saws I've worked on had left handed threads on the motor shaft.. this would be the bolt / cap screw I'm needing to get out.. but trying to hold the motor from spinning while trying to break loose the allen cap screw is slightly difficult.. I may either saw the allen / hex wrench down so I can put it into a socket / ratchet.. or buy a set of allen / hex sockets.. then I have something with some leverage to work with too, then my only issue will be trying to keep the motor from spinning.. which I may be able to use some vise grips to clamp onto the connecting rod.. hopefully.. 

The knob and shaft broke.. so it's the whole assembly.. I knew it was stuck pretty good.. so I gave it a harder pull.. once it was off... on the bottom side of the knob.. I see it had a set screw in it.. had I seen that I wouldn't have broke it.. what I get for working in the almost dark corner on my shop I suppose.. LOL..

 

 

Good interesting story!

[OCtoolguy]

11 hours ago, octoolguy said:

I know this may not be too helpful but might it be easier to work on the saw if you were to turn it upside down and place it between two sawhorses? I had a saw similar to yours that I bought new in 1986 so I know what you are working with. It just seems like you should be able to turn it over and get it up where you can work on it. I hope this helps.

 

Ray

 

Ok, a new idea. How about laying a couple of 4x4's on the garage floor and laying the saw over sideways onto the 4x's and then fashion some sort of a combination of wood and create a platform to support the saw upside down so you can at least get down on your knees and work on it? Maybe a foam rubber knee pad would be good to kneel on. I'm just spitballing here but if you want to work on it bad enough, there are ways. I have always been able to fashion something in order to get the job done. Just sayin..........

 

 

[kmmcrafts]

10 hours ago, hotshot said:

When I had my BM apart a few weeks ago, I didn't check anything out in the pitman arm.  I'll just hope those are in good shape.

However, I did check the bearings out (in the arms), they didn't feel right, not turning freely, but being a bit gritty.  I oiled them and they seemed to loosen up a bit.  But still, this didn't seem right, so today I ordered four new bearing to replace them all.  The specific size bearings (for the arms) for this saw are only made by a couple of manufacturers.  As far as I can tell, only bearings available in the size for the BM is the  "Nice 6031/v4" and the ones Bushton sells which were the "General Bearing Corporation 4455-00" 

I was going to try the "Nice" brand, hoping they might be a little higher quantity, but my source was out of stock, so I went with the original GBC brand which were only $2.50 each, which is sort of concerning in of itself.  I was hoping to find a double sealed bearing in this size, but no luck.  The ball bearings are not exposed, but not what I would considered sealed either.  I'm afraid dirt/dust can get inside and put me right back to my current state.

So here is a question for you all, should I be trying to add grease/oil/lubricant  to the bearings before putting them in?  Not sure whatever was done originally was very effective.

------Randy

Hmmm, I think I am going to take my whole saw apart and check the whole thing out good.. 

I'm not sure what to say about adding grease to the bearings.. but.. most any bearing I buy I take apart and wash out the supplied grease and re-pack the bearing with high end synthetic grease.. that's just me.. I will probably do this to my saw when I take the rest apart and check out those bearings.. I wonder if my 1998 saw has the same type bearings.. be interesting to find out what's in there. Yeah, I'm still that little kid that takes new things apart just to see how it's made or how it works, LOL

I've seen a lot of sealed bearings in my day that was shipped new with little to no grease.. Anyone that has had much time on a grease gun greasing things knows that grease many times in those tubes get air pockets in them from time to time.. I speculate that this probably happen in the big barrels of grease too.. I'm sure this is a automated system and possibly why some bearings get non - to very little grease in them from the factory.. while others get the required amount.. Seems like the manufacture would weigh them to see that they all weigh the same.. maybe a few get slipped past Q.C.    

[SCROLLSAW703]

i have those same questions, randy. I had bushton send me a new pitman arm w/bearings & i sent the other one back. but the bearings in the new one were the same bearings as were in my original pitman arm.

Were i you, & the bearings are sealed, I wouldn't try to add any lube them. But, I have the same concern you do. my saw just is a year old, and already junked a bearing. I'm guessin' the pitman arm area(bearings) may be a weak spot in the saw, & something to pay attention to. 

[Rolf]

I had bought a new pitman arm at one of the last open houses form Hawk. Mine has been running flawlessly since 2005. I recently changed mine because of a slight tick. 

My lower bearing was fine, it was the small upper bushing that had worn out.

I have the same block of aluminum on the end of the motor. What I did to keep things from spinning while removing the screw was to bring the pitman to the bottom of its stroke and I cut a small block of maple that just fit between the screw and the bottom of the saw so that the motor couldn't rotate while removing the screw.

And as you have already discovered there is a set screw in the speed knob.  I would take out the speed controller open it up and there should be a part number on the potentiometer  that could order one from DigiKey. No need to buy a new controller.

[kmmcrafts]

Hey Rolf, Thank you for the tips.. Mine is also the upper bearing on that connecting rod.. I don't have any bushing... it's a sealed bearing pressed into the connecting rod with a ( I think it's called a) flange bolt.. Man why can't I think of the name of this bolt.. anyway the bolt is larger to match the bearing then turned smaller where the threads are.. Sorry my mind went blank there for the name of the bolts, LOL  probably come to me as soon as I post this...

I had planned to try to buy just the potentiometer  to replace it.. didn't know where to buy them though.. used to be able to get that type of stuff from radio shack but they don't do things like they used to either.. figured I'd search the web for it.. I'll look into the place you mentioned. 

 

[Scrappile]

shoulder bolt?

[Scrappile]

I know nothing about bearing.. so I want to ask.  Can't you purchase the same size bearing only of a much better quality and replace the ones that come on the saw?  Or would it not be feasible?

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, Scrappile said:

I know nothing about bearing.. so I want to ask.  Can't you purchase the same size bearing only of a much better quality and replace the ones that come on the saw?  Or would it not be feasible?

Yes, I believe the bolt is called a shoulder bolt.. LOL Thank you!

Some bearing sizes are oddball and only a couple manufactures even sell them anymore.. so in some cases.. yes you can buy better quality and some cases.. no.. just depends upon what bearing one needs.. In my case.. yes... I can get a high end bearing.. I just need to get the connecting rod bolt out of the motor end of the connecting rod so I can put it into a press as the bearing is pressed in.. However in my case too.. If I cannot get the bolt out of the motor end.. I can take the rest of the saw apart ( table lower arm etc ) to get room and I can press the bearing out using a automotive ball joint press tool or even a C- clamp would probably work to press this out right on the saw.. would have to be very careful not to put too much force on it and damage the connecting rod or the motor itself though.. rather get the bolt out and work on the workbench.. LOL 

[Rolf]

I would replace the entire pitman arm with a new assembly you can then play with the old one.  I get all of my hardware from McMaster Carr if I can't find it locally.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#shoulder-screws/=19mxdp7

If I remember correctly there is a large bearing in the end of the motor that should be looked at also. The end with the aluminum block. 

On my G4 there is an electrical connector between the motor and the controller. So another approach to pulling out the motor is to press out the pin in the upper arm, top of the pitman arm. Then drop the motor with the Pittman still attached . You can then work on your bench to remove the Pittman from the motor.  A strap wrench or something else can be used to hold the counter weight.

 

[kmmcrafts]

10 hours ago, Rolf said:

I would replace the entire pitman arm with a new assembly you can then play with the old one.  I get all of my hardware from McMaster Carr if I can't find it locally.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#shoulder-screws/=19mxdp7

If I remember correctly there is a large bearing in the end of the motor that should be looked at also. The end with the aluminum block. 

On my G4 there is an electrical connector between the motor and the controller. So another approach to pulling out the motor is to press out the pin in the upper arm, top of the pitman arm. Then drop the motor with the Pittman still attached . You can then work on your bench to remove the Pittman from the motor.  A strap wrench or something else can be used to hold the counter weight.

 

I have another Hawk and a DeWalt to use.. so no need to really rush.. don't see any reason I need to replace the whole assembly for a bearing that only cost $3 - 7 depending on how good of one I want..

I took the box apart to find some markings on the Potentiometer.. I google the numbers but I come up with different ones.. one shows 1/5 watt and one shows 1/2 watt.. I don't know much about these so any advice on what to buy would be great.. Only numbers I could find on mine was B1K made by Alpha.. I don't see any other part number or markings etc on it..

[Dave Monk]

I have been considering buying a new Hawk. After reading the bearing issues you guys are having I would be pissed off spending 1600 and have problems within a year. 

[kmmcrafts]

6 minutes ago, Dave Monk said:

I have been considering buying a new Hawk. After reading the bearing issues you guys are having I would be pissed off spending 1600 and have problems within a year. 

I'm not too mad because I kind of expect things like this with a saw like I purchased.. while my saw was new in the box when I got it.. it is a old 1998 saw.. if that bearing was actually greased.. it may have dried up just setting all those years.. as grease does dry out.. and.. I feel even if I have to replace every bearing in the saw... I only paid $400 for it.. and I've made about $2000 worth of product to sell on this particular saw already.. 

I understand what you mean though.. but on the other hand.. you have to take into account.. most all bearings are made in china now.. and quality of bearings have drastically declined over the years..and it's not like Hawk made the bearings.. they just buy them from a bearing supplier.. at least they have the brains enough to use a sealed bearing.. unlike the dewalt, ex, jet, and seyco type saws..that use a open roller bearings.