Hawk BM26 - May be a keeper???

[Iguanadon]

There's way too much history to recap, but I wanted to let those that have been following the saga know that I finally got up the nerve to try using the Hawk again after @kmmcrafts and others provided some feedback and ideas about my issues with vibration and blade wobble.  I just finished cutting 5 outlines of puzzle animals and the saw worked well.  No blade wobble, virtually no vibration... I'm not getting overly excited yet as I need to cut actual puzzle pieces, but things look very promising.

I'd been so disgusted with things that I hadn't touched the Hawk in a few weeks.  If I'd still had the box that it came in, I'd have shipped it back weeks ago.  So, maybe this is an omen and I end up a happy Hawk user.   We'll see, but I wanted to let everyone know I'm still trying to get it to work out.  If I feel brave tomorrow, I'll cut some complete puzzles.

Iggy

[kmmcrafts]

Iggy, I sure hope you have the issues resolved.. and it turns out to be your favorite saw..  I've felt bad about the experiences you'd had with your saw and since I was one of the ones steering you toward getting a Hawk.. I sort of felt somewhat responsible for the decision you made.. Had I known you'd have all these issues.. I'd of never suggested the Hawk to you.. 

So I truly hope this works out for you..    

 

[Iguanadon]

7 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

Iggy, I sure hope you have the issues resolved.. and it turns out to be your favorite saw..  I've felt bad about the experiences you'd had with your saw and since I was one of the ones steering you toward getting a Hawk.. I sort of felt somewhat responsible for the decision you made.. Had I known you'd have all these issues.. I'd of never suggested the Hawk to you.. 

So I truly hope this works out for you..    

 

Don't give it a second thought man, no way you could have known and as they say... shit happens and I'm very used to it happening to me.  ;-)

I greatly appreciate all of the information, ideas and recommendations you've made as I've worked on the beast.  It really seems to be close to running right at this point.

[SCROLLSAW703]

I second that, Iggy. I sure hope ya got the bugs worked out of'er. I was one that suggested the Hawk, too, & when ya started havin' issues, I really felt horrible. Not only somewhat of an embarrassment to those of us that own & use Hawks everyday, but to Hawk themselves. I even went so far as to call Bushton as a voice to express the seriousness of the situation. 

I hope it'll turn out to be your favorite saw after the smoke clears, & you get to spend time using it. 

[hotshot]

What are the things you did that seemed to have improved your situation?  Thanks goodness I'm not having the same issue you are and mine runs decently outside the harmonic range, but that range falls right where I like to work.  For wood, I like a little more aggression, but I'm a little iffy on the wisdom of increasing the blade angle to accomplish this.  For now, I'm just pushing harder, and keeping the blade as perpendicular as I can.

Got my replacement arm bearings in today, exact ones used by Bushton, so putting those in will be my next Hawk tweak.  Even as virgin bearings, they are not as smooth turning as I would have hoped, but I don't know anything about bearings, so they may be fine.  In any case, they are better than what is in the saw now, so we shall see.

---Randy

Edited October 4, 2017 by hotshot

[Iguanadon]

2 hours ago, hotshot said:

What are the things you did that seemed to have improved your situation?  Thanks goodness I'm not having the same issue you are and mine runs decently outside the harmonic range, but that range falls right where I like to work.  For wood, I like a little more aggression, but I'm a little iffy on the wisdom of increasing the blade angle to accomplish this.  For now, I'm just pushing harder, and keeping the blade as perpendicular as I can.

Got my replacement arm bearings in today, exact ones used by Bushton, so putting those in will be my next Hawk tweak.  Even as virgin bearings, they are not as smooth turning as I would have hoped, but I don't know anything about bearings, so they may be fine.  In any case, they are better than what is in the saw now, so we shall see.

---Randy

That bizarre wobble I showed in videos ended up being simply because the blade wasn't perfectly vertical.  I had the table tilted about a full degree to one side in order to get the blade perpendicular to the table.  What I should have realized was the blade wasn't aligned well and when the saw was running it was causing the weird wobble as well as a good amount of the vibration I was experiencing.  

Using the set screws in the blade top and bottom blade holders to properly align the blade is all it took.  My table is now set at 0 and the wobble only happens at the highest speed which I don't need to be running anyway and the vibration is virtually gone.

I look forward to cutting some actual puzzle pieces tomorrow and see how it goes.  The real test will be if things stay aligned and accurate as the weeks and months of cutting start to add up.

[hotshot]

Well, I got the bearings switched out.  After close inspection of the old arm bearings, I believe they were probably fine, but bearings are cheap, so I went ahead and changed them out.

My harmonic point is really bad at the 7 to 7.5 range, but seems pretty tolerable outside of that.  Grabbed a short 2by4 and started doing freehand puzzle cuts with a #5 Polar, but switched to a #3 Pegas to see how well it did on something that thick.  The Pegas did better than expected, but probably too small for the puzzle boxes I do.

I think I'm happy with my BM, and am going to quit tweaking it before I break something.  I hope you find your rhythm with your saw as well.

-----Randy

Edited October 5, 2017 by hotshot

[lawson56]

Keeping my Fingers and Toes crossed Iggy.

[kmmcrafts]

8 hours ago, hotshot said:

I think I'm happy with my BM, and am going to quit tweaking it before I break something.  I hope you find your rhythm with your saw as well.

-----Randy

This reminds me of the old high school days.. where all us kids was always messing with our cars.. trying to gain that little extra horse power.. LOL .. But one thing for sure.. if you don't mess with them.. you won't learn much about the machine or it's capabilities.. when you know a machine inside out.. when a problem arises.. you can almost always pinpoint the problem.. Us old mechanics can tune a car like many tune a guitar.. "By Ear" .. who needs a dang timing light.. and those marks on the dampener pulley..   

 

[orangeman]

11 hours ago, Iguanadon said:

That bizarre wobble I showed in videos ended up being simply because the blade wasn't perfectly vertical.  I had the table tilted about a full degree to one side in order to get the blade perpendicular to the table.  What I should have realized was the blade wasn't aligned well and when the saw was running it was causing the weird wobble as well as a good amount of the vibration I was experiencing.  

Using the set screws in the blade top and bottom blade holders to properly align the blade is all it took.  My table is now set at 0 and the wobble only happens at the highest speed which I don't need to be running anyway and the vibration is virtually gone.

I look forward to cutting some actual puzzle pieces tomorrow and see how it goes.  The real test will be if things stay aligned and accurate as the weeks and months of cutting start to add up.

What's the matter with those Bushmasters at Hawk? Blade holders should have been aligned properly at the factory!!! Everyone is not a diagnostic mechanic! What a hassle, eh?

[kmmcrafts]

5 minutes ago, orangeman said:

What's the matter with those Bushmasters at Hawk? Blade holders should have been aligned properly at the factory!!! Everyone is not a diagnostic mechanic! What a hassle, eh?

Yeah, I sort of think they just throw in the set screws wherever.. I bought 4 barrel style clamps for my older Hawk last year.. All 4 of them.. the set screw was not centered.. nor was any of those 4 positioned somewhat the same as each other.. which told me they just put them in.. Not really a big deal to me.. because I tune everything I get new or old.. anyway.. or at least check it..

Something to consider I suppose if you are looking to buy a Hawk I guess... odds might be... it's not going to be squared and tuned right out of the box..

That said.. Dewalt and many of the other brands probably have a automated machine install those screws at a set distance.. Hawk is just a bunch of farm boys putting them together.. Suppose any one of these guys ever runs a scroll saw?..while they designed the saw and I might add.. I think it's pretty well designed.. and improved over the older Hawks..  I think they somewhat lack in the setting up and testing / running the machine before it's shipped out....  That said.. while my DeWalt was set up closest to being tuned right out of the box .. but it was still off some..with some tweaking I had it running smoother than what it was.. 

That's just the kind of person I am though.. If I bought a brand new car.. I'd be out there tuning it to my liking.. and driving style.. I realize though.. not everyone is like that and would expect it to be perfect out of the box.. 

     

[hotshot]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

Something to consider I suppose if you are looking to buy a Hawk I guess... odds might be... it's not going to be squared and tuned right out of the box.

I'm not convinced that the BM is an improvement over the G4.  Some aspects may be improved, but not all.  I read the ad copy of all the "improvements", and was excited to see these, but there are a few things that I can point to that are definitely not improved.  This isn't to say the BM isn't good, I just don't know that the quality matches the production build of G4 in every aspect. I'm hoping someday, Rolf will end up with a BM so that he can live and breathe it a while.  If he lived closer, I would loan him mine for a few months.  

I think it would behoove Bushton to buy a Hegner, an see how those machines are "locked" into their alignments.  Again, not saying Hegner is better than a BM,  but I think there is a definite advantage to the way the Hegners are locked into their alignment.  On the Hegner, the base and primary chassis of saw are one solid piece with no room for movement, or bending and such (bending is possible on the Hawk table, and if that happens, alignment is hosed).  There is no "loosening the bolts and letting the machine align itself."  The Hegner starts with a very solid base, which has accurate taps that locks everything into their optimal position.  I think the only slots are where the motor connects to that base, and I've never heard of anyone having to adjust that.  There shouldn't be any voodoo required to set up a saw.  Beyond the motor, no "slotted" holes for things to slip out of alignment.  

In contrast, on the BM, each side of the chases is independently bolted to a much thinner table, front of angle guide attaches to the table, and is slotted.  Rear table attachment is slotted.  Motor is slotted.  Slots slots, everywhere slots.  See, for me, If I was King at Bushton, my priority would be to ensure  things to work optimally . . . . right out of the box, after all, the price charged should reflect the quality of the product delivered.

(I suppose I feel frustration with how things went in Iggy World, and did lash out at Hawk a little, so for balance, BMs do cost considerably less than Hegner, they top feed, blade travel is minimal compared to EX/788s, table blows the doors off the Hegner in terms of size, aggression is adjustable if needed, Hawk Red is a really cool color, and etc and etc )

-----Randy

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by hotshot

[Iguanadon]

After cutting 4 puzzles on the Hawk this morning and it performing flawlessly I decided to try out the "aggressiveness" setting on the blade.  I couldn't tell much if any difference in the cutting speed or quality, so I set it back to where I had it.

I have to admit I'm ecstatic that I was able to cut 4 complete puzzles and didn't have anything get out of whack.  One thing that really pisses me off is getting 3/4 of the way through a puzzle, cut a letter out and it doesn't slide in and out both ways... Very difficult to "fix", if not impossible, and end up having to throw away the entire puzzle because I'm so picky.  

Now I just need the saw to keep performing like this for another 700-800 puzzles.  ;-)

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, hotshot said:

I'm not convinced that the BM is an improvement over the G4.  Some aspects may be improved, but not all.  I read the ad copy of all the "improvements", and was excited to see these, but there are a few things that I can point to that are definitely not improved.  This isn't to say the BM isn't good, I just don't know that the quality matches the production build of G4 in every aspect. I'm hoping someday, Rolf will end up with a BM so that he can live and breathe it a while.  If he lived closer, I would loan him mine for a few months.  

I think it would behoove Bushton to buy a Hegner, an see how those machines are "locked" into their alignments.  Again, not saying Hegner is better than a BM,  but I think there is a definite advantage to the way the Hegners are locked into their alignment.  On the Hegner, the base and primary chassis of saw are one solid piece with no room for movement, or bending and such (bending is possible on the Hawk table, and if that happens, alignment is hosed).  There is no "loosening the bolts and letting the machine align itself."  The Hegner starts with a very solid base, which has accurate taps that locks everything into their optimal position.  I think the only slots are where the motor connects to that base, and I've never heard of anyone having to adjust that.  There shouldn't be any voodoo required to set up a saw.  Beyond the motor, no "slotted" holes for things to slip out of alignment.  

In contrast, on the BM, each side of the chases is independently bolted to a much thinner table, front of angle guide attaches to the table, and is slotted.  Rear table attachment is slotted.  Motor is slotted.  Slots slots, everywhere slots.  See, for me, If I was King at Bushton, my priority would be to ensure  things to work optimally . . . . right out of the box, after all, the price charged should reflect the quality of the product delivered.

(I suppose I feel frustration with how things went in Iggy World, and did lash out at Hawk a little, so for balance, BMs do cost considerably less than Hegner, they top feed, blade travel is minimal compared to EX/788s, table blows the doors off the Hegner in terms of size, aggression is adjustable if needed, Hawk Red is a really cool color, and etc and etc )

-----Randy

 

I am curious what is the difference between a G4 and say my old ultra or for that matter the newer BM series? I do know of the lower arm protrudes through the adjustment mechanism on the G4.. I believe the blade clamps and many other things are the same design as my Ultra.. I was always under the impression that the BM was basically the same as the G4 other than the ability to adjust the blade movement.. 

I've never seen a Hegner in person.. One saw that I hope to one day find a deal on and get some first hand experience with.. I've read many others that love them.. while also several say stay away if you do fretwork.. I generally take others opinions with a grain of salt.. because like I've said many times.. sometimes it's just the way the saw was set up.. or the user doesn't know how to correctly work the blade clamps and tension.. many people...including myself.. get used to running one particular saw.. then anything else they try just isn't comfortable for them to use.. due to blade aggression SPM etc etc.. or even the way the saw sets.. One thing I love about my DW788 is the stand.. I have a higher stool to set on..I set my foot switch on the lower part of the stand.. tilt the stand forward.. etc.. very comfy to set at.. My Hawks.. I have to sit on the edge of the stool or stand.. to reach a foot peddle or build a riser block for the peddle.. then I find I have an issue with where to put my legs and feet.. always feel crunch between my stool and the saw stand, LOL Yeah there is things to do to adjust to..

You bring up many good points about all the slots ect with the Hawks.. and I do agree.. one shouldn't have to fuss with any of these things.. I can see having to tune the clamp set screws and things like that.. but tweaking the whole saw is a bit much for most people.. and really shouldn't have the need to do all that anyway..

     

[SCROLLSAW703]

too bad us ol' farm boys don't have the mechanical minds everyone else does. I reckon that's why we spend more time feedin' the country than buildin' assembly lines for scroll saws. 

Sorry if i sound offended gentlemen, but those are my country men you're downgradin'. And as far as the construction of the saw, be thankful it's not put together with balin' wire & hay bale string. Ya would have somethin' to "tune & tweak" then. And then the gripin' would be worth a pool hall discussion.

Being in the trucking business all my life, & workin' on our own trucks, I can tell you nothin' built with iron & electronics is perfect "out of the box." There is always something to work on. I'm happy with my BM. It does everything I need it to do. You show me a machine without flaws, I'll show ya one that sits! Yes, iggys ordeal was one that could have been prevented in more ways than one, but bushton has made an honest effort to make it right. And with Iggys patience, he has prevailed. 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by SCROLLSAW703

[rjweb]

The woodcraft store in Delaware uses the hegner saw for all their classes, and they also sell them, RJ

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, SCROLLSAW703 said:

too bad us ol' farm boys don't have the mechanical minds everyone else does. I reckon that's why we spend more time feedin' the country than buildin' assembly lines for scroll saws. 

Sorry if i sound offended gentlemen, but those are my country men you're downgradin'. And as far as the construction of the saw, be thankful it's not put together with balin' wire & hay bale string. Ya would have somethin' to "tune & tweak" then. And then the gripin' would be worth a pool hall discussion.

Being in the trucking business all my life, & workin' on our own trucks, I can tell you nothin' built with iron & electronics is perfect "out of the box." There is always something to work on. I'm happy with my BM. It does everything I need it to do. You show me a machine without flaws, I'll show ya one that sits! Yes, iggys ordeal was one that could have been prevented in more ways than one, but bushton has made an honest effort to make it right. And with Iggys patience, he has prevailed. 

 

 

I suppose what I said sounded degrading .. and that isn't how it was intended.. My point was supposed to mean that the old farm boy has so much knowledge of machines etc.. and common sense that he's not thinkin about the the average joe that might get their hands on one of there saws.. seriously the guy that does things everyday it's common everyday sense to him.. and many times the average joe has no idea how to put it together... case in point.. I've seen complaints about the outdated stickers on the new Hawks.. and outdated instruction manual.. a farm boy probably ain't even going to need those instructions or the dumb stickers.. a farm boy will set it up and run it without even thinkin about it.. I know that's how I set up both of mine..  While I might not be a farmer.. I've been around machinery all my life.. and farms.. because every one of my neighbors is a farmer.. have helped them fix equipment.. have restored some old tractors and machinery for them.. been around sawmills and logging equipment all my life.. running skidders at the age of 13.. helping my older brother with the sawmill.. 

They are too busy to set up those set screws in the center of the blade clamps.. probably figuring the guy using it will adjust it.. 

[hotshot]

4 hours ago, SCROLLSAW703 said:

...... And then the gripin' would be worth a pool hall discussion.......

 

 

I actually grew up on a farm in the middle of the Oklahoma panhandle.  Drove a tractor before I drove a car.  We fixed things ourselves because it was too expensive to call out the mechanic.  And, as far as I know, there were not "mechanics" for plows, sprayers, homemade tools, and everything else many other things we used on the farm.  But we bought good equipment, because we couldn't afford to be down during harvest, or other critical times.  Last time I was home, I spend so much time (mostly on my back) with a stick welder, my shirt faded (no lie).  We did a little repair work, but mostly welded something my dad thought up to make things easier on the farm.

Brad, I know you love your saw, and I know the negative commentary is frustrating you.  You have spent time and been a great help to me personally and I know you have tried to help Iggy as well, so you are definitely a positive force in the Hawk family.

I think critical discussions about a Saw in terms of the Vendor/Design/Competitors/Weaknesses and Strengths add some perspective to the discussion.  I think it is good to see the whole picture, and sometimes there are parts of the picture that are truly ugly.  There is usually a balance where the positives and the negatives shine a light from all angles, and an accurate picture emerges.  Perhaps we went too far down the critical road this time and threw the conversation off balance.  I've been trying to be mindful of that, but perhaps I let the critical brush get away from me.  Crazy thing is, apart from the alignment/tweaking process, I actually love the saw.  Been spending more time on it lately, just enjoying some casual cutting.  

But, if anyone came to me for advise before buying the Hawk BM (and they have), I would feel like I was stabbing them in the back if I didn't mention my concerns about the saw along with all the positives.

For giggles, I included a picture I took from back home on my last visit, followed by a picture from right outside of Bushton.

 

Right outside of Bushton

Edited October 6, 2017 by hotshot

[SCROLLSAW703]

Im not sayin' I don't agree with all of what you guys are sayin'. The BM has it's downfalls, I admit, & it's definitely got it's weak spots. But, in all honesty, it's a damn good saw overall. Out of all the saws I've owned, & worn out, I still think Hawk has a better design than most. 

I don't think I can honestly say I don't make adjustments, check alignments, etc. before I start a project on any of the three saws I use. Or any other machine in the shop, whether it's been moved, or not. It's just part of my regiment, if you will.

Criticism is ok to a point, I suppose, but there are limitations. imo. When asked my opinion about the BM, I give my honest opinion of its positives, along with my experience of it's downfalls. I don't see the need to reconstruct the saw with them, either. In Iggy's case, I had yet to have an issue of any kind with mine when I suggested the BM to him.

Edited October 6, 2017 by SCROLLSAW703

[SCROLLSAW703]

km, finally you said something I agree with. I set my saw up right out of the box when we got home from bushton with it. I had it runnin' & the first pattern on it in about an hour. Not bein' new to the Hawk saws, I felt familiar enough with it to make it fly. I did second guess myself on the aggression setting, so, I did have to study that part of the manual.

I drove OTR 35 years km, & can't begin to tell you the number of trucks I've laid under, in all kinds of weather, workin' on brakes, fuel lines, air lines, electrical, because, like these saws, everybody wants to be a truck driver. Til the time comes they have to use their brain & some common sense. Ya get a semi load of cattle in -40* weather, snow up to your shorts, & their fuel & air lines freeze! No brakes & no power. The first question they ask is "now what?" In the meantime, the cattles' feet are freezin' to the floor of the bull rack. So, havin' the experience the wanna be doesn't, ya start dumpin' alcohol in the air lines, changin' fuel filters with fuel treatment & kerosene in them to dissolve ice in the fuel lines, hopin' like hell it'll start & keep runnin long enough to build air pressure to move alcohol thru the air lines. When she blows black smoke & runs, & pretty soon the brakes slowly start to release, this new steering wheel holder looks at ya & says " how'd you do that?" Ya hand'im his log book & tell'im to get his butt down the road!. 

Same with these saws. Not just "anybody", imo, can make them run. It takes patience, some mechanical ability, a brain, & a little common sense helps too. Having the ability to think for yourself in the event of a breakdown, or when something isn't right helps. Out dated stickers on the saws mean nothing to me. If I can make it fly, better for me. If i can't get parts, I'll make them myself. And trust me, I can & will make them if the need arises.

Case in point, I do understand the frustration. Trust me. And I'm by no means a know it all, but with the experience I have with Hawk saws, I try to help where I can. I feel like my wife & I both have a close relationship with the folks at bushton, & have learned a lot from them. I guess I try to focus on the positives & leave the negatives til I get to them. I have enough storms goin' on right now in life, I just wasn't prepared for the discussion. my apologies for bein' a sh*thead about things. 

 

Edited October 6, 2017 by SCROLLSAW703

[hotshot]

I'm sure there is a way to delete this post, other than overwriting it with this dribble, but somehow I'm missing it.

Edited October 6, 2017 by hotshot
Trying to delete post

[kmmcrafts]

16 hours ago, SCROLLSAW703 said:

 

Same with these saws. Not just "anybody", imo, can make them run. 

 

First of all.. let me say no apologies needed.. everyone gets their feather in a ruffle every now and again.. If anything the way my wording in my post is worded.. I should be the one to apologize..

You hit the nail on the head here.. which brings me to this point...

Why not sell a saw that "anybody" can set up and run.. Not trying to bash Hawk.. I love mine.. however.. mine is a pre-Bushton machine.. I feel like they are just simply too busy or to rushed to get these saws out the door.. and not REALLY paying attention to the details of the saws or tuning them.. yeah they may need some light tweaking once put together at the customers place.. but I feel Iggys situation could have been avoided.. Ok one bad saw... but two got shipped to him? and he had to work on it after that..

[SCROLLSAW703]

i fully agree! Iggy's situation could easily have been avoided had more care been taken not only at the time of assembly, but when the arms were machined. Bushton admitted to making "a bad batch of arms." The fault falls in more than one place in the business. imo. But, again, they went out of their way to make it right for him. Yes, he did still have to work on yet then, but look at the outcome now. Iggy has a saw he seems to be enjoying, Bushton, unlike a lot of manufacturers, did their best to help him get it runnin' to his satisfaction. Imo. Like the rest of ya, I still think it should have been ready to rock out of the crate, regardless. What's done is done, & Iggys patience paid off for him.

[rjweb]

Hotshot,

do you realize that the picture you posted looks like that show on tv "the middle" when it first starts, Your famous, RJ