Question For Hegner Owner

[tonylumps]

10 hours ago, Dave Monk said:

No difference at all. I don't understand why they don't slot the holes of the blade clamp holder.

If that happened on my 20 YO saw I would slot the holes .But not a new saw yet.

[Dave Monk]

11 hours ago, Scrappile said:

Something is wrong, Dave.  Something is wrong.  I have not trouble like that on my Hegner.... I assume you are using the "Quick Clamp".  It works great for me each and every time.  And I would have expected you to have a response from AM by now. Maybe call them.......

This is the email I received back.

Hi Dave,

Thanks both for your business and for sharing your concerns.  I am happy to explain.

The blade must be (and is unless the machine is damaged) perfectly perpendicular throughout its entire vertical stroke when viewed from the FRONT. This a condition which depends entirely on the machine - operator input or actions do not affect it.  Your concern is the view from the SIDE - an entirely different matter. 

Two items are in play here:  the first is the static position of the blade, which is determined by where you place it in the blade clamps. Per factory guidelines, the blade should be centered in the clamps.  However, you can either deliberately or inadvertently position the blade either a bit forward or rearward in either or both clamps, and this necessarily affects the static blade position accordingly.  Use of the HQK (Quickclamp) also affects this, since the blade is not centered but pushed all the way back in this optional alternate clamp, and its proximity to dead center therefore becomes a function of blade width. The static position is NOT necessarily required to be vertical at all points throughout the stroke (see next paragraph), and in fact in most scroll saws it is not, including on your machine.  However, HEGNER saw geometry produces blade position closer to constantly plumb position than any other brand of constant-tension saw - we are talking about fractions of a millimeter.

The second component of the blade's position is its motion, i.e., the movement the blade makes as it cycles up and down.  This is another non-adjustable function (other than by stroke length adjustment, which can reduce the amplitude of any lateral excursion), and in fact the motion geometry varies slightly among different HEGNER models based on other design requirements.

The blade motion is the consequence of the arm pivot span compared to the span of the blade assembly.  Each arm moves through a small arc as it pivots, and how these arcs match up dictates blade position at any point in the stroke.  In the 18 and 22 models, the bottom end of the blade moves slightly backwards on the upstroke, and is then draw forward into a vertical position at the bottom of the stroke, thereby achieving the vertical cuts for which HEGNER saws are known. This bladee action also tends to reduce blade friction on the upstroke (less lifting - more comfortable sawing), as well as finishing the sawn edges so that they require a minimum of, if any, sanding.

As to changing the position of the top arm stop, I can understand your desire to lift the arm further out of the way - a noble goal indeed.  However, this is precluded since lowering the stop would sacrifice the (in our view far more important) safety feature of instant upper arm stoppage on blade breakage.  With the stop lower, the spring would not have enough pull to secure the arm against the stop.  Why not a stronger spring?  The upper arm then becomes too stiff to comfortably pull down to reinstall the blade in the upper arm. Plus the arm travel would be too great for those with average hand size to comfortably reach for efficient blade reattachment.

Trust me - I know anything can be somehow improved, but HEGNER saws are overengineered with a focus on balanced performance, with emphasis on the characteristics that are of greatest everyday and long-term value to the broadest palette of users, to a level that simply puts all other saws to shame.  This is why after four decades on the world marketplace, HEGNER is the ONLY scroll saw specialty brand still made by the same manufacturer, and sold by the same company in North America, as when it was first introduced.

I am confident you will continue to enjoy your HEGNER ever more as you use it more, and encourage to contact us anytime you have more questions or concerns.

Sincerely,.

Hanns Derke - Customer Service
Advanced Machinery/SharpToolsUSA
POB 430
New Castle, DE 19720
USA
(302) 322-2226

[Sycamore67]

I think you got a pretty good explanation.  Getting the blade centered in the bottom clamp takes a bit of experience.  At first with my Hegner, I struggled and it took too long to get it in the bottom clamp.  Now, I do not even think about it and it is quick.  

[hotshot]

I think that explanation works pretty good . . . for the user that was expecting zero blade motion, but noticed some very minor movement or changes in blade angle throughout the stroke. It was very very well written, and they should really include that in their documentation.  

I don't think the email answers one very simple question, which is, if the blade is correctly positioned in the clamps, is that angle to be expected at the top of the stroke?  I would interpret the answer to be, the saw is locked in to the optimal settings, so if there is a problem, it has to be the blade orientation in the clamps (or a damaged saw).  If the problem was vibration, and you got an very detailed explanation back about how the saw was designed to be vibration free, and all settings were locked in to assure that, but when you turned on the saw, it danced across the floor, well, regardless of the explanation, the explanation doesn't affect the reality of your experience.

Ironically, his explanation fit's right in line with what I observe with the Hawk.  On the Hawk, you can change the blade angle, however, since it moves throughout the stroke, fixing it at the top of the stroke does't mean it stays perpendicular in the middle or bottom.  His explanation makes my Hawk blade motion/angle make sense.

Dave, check the angle at "mid" stroke.  Also, if you try to compensate by moving the blade forward in the bottom clamp so that at "mid-stroke" it is perpendicular, how does it look at the top and bottom of the stroke?  On the Hawk, I adjust to perpendicular at mid stroke, then just don't worry about it.

(Only areas of his letter that I don't agree with in terms of a rational explanation was the reason the design of the saw couldn't be improved so that the arm lifted higher.  That part was Bull.  If a customer  can tweak a couple of things and have it work without issues, then that proves that explanation is bull.  But, Advanced is in a tough position as they are not the manufacturers and are not the engineers.  I doubt they have a lot of influence on the engineers at Hegner that haven't changed the mechanics of that saw for more than 30 years.)

Edited November 14, 2017 by hotshot

[Sycamore67]

I have read all of this thread and really got me wondering.

We have not seen any pictures of how the blade was set in the clamps.

Is the saw cutting badly or how is it cutting.

Hegner has made the same saw for many years and is a robust saw design.  Everybody knows how it works and how it is designed.  If you do not like the features, buy another saw. The arm only lifts so high and this has not changed.  If you want to call it Bull, that is fine.  If you want to modify the saw fine.  But complaining about a saw which is so rugged because you think the design should change is Bull.

[stoney]

2 hours ago, Dave Monk said:

 

 

As to changing the position of the top arm stop, I can understand your desire to lift the arm further out of the way - a noble goal indeed.  However, this is precluded since lowering the stop would sacrifice the (in our view far more important) safety feature of instant upper arm stoppage on blade breakage.  With the stop lower, the spring would not have enough pull to secure the arm against the stop.  Why not a stronger spring?  The upper arm then becomes too stiff to comfortably pull down to reinstall the blade in the upper arm. Plus the arm travel would be too great for those with average hand size to comfortably reach.......

Sincerely,.

Hanns Derke - Customer Service
Advanced Machinery/SharpToolsUSA
POB 430
New Castle, DE 19720
USA
(302) 322-2226

This part of Hanns's statement reminds me of when I contacted him several years ago with some of my concerns and ideas to make Hegner saws more user friendly.   You know what they say about a poor excuse being better than none?   I believe it applies here.    I have been using my Hegner Multi-Max 22V for over 2 years with the upper arm stop modified position with none of the issues that Hanns stated.   All I can say is I will continue to use my saw with the modification because it makes cutting larger fretwork so much more enjoyable.  

[hotshot]

Dave, I have the Multimax 22v, here is what my angle looks like at the top and the bottom of the stroke.  Remember, I'm zoomed way in, so that little bit of space you see at the bottom of the stroke is pretty nominal.  I would say the angle at the top of the stroke on is perfect.

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by hotshot

[Scrappile]

7 hours ago, blights69 said:

Hey Paul look at the underside of that table it is covered in dust it is a Hegner it deserves to be wiped under as well you know  On the original question my blade on my new Hegner sits exactly as your does Paul so not sure why yours is not Dave. I am interested to see why I also checked upper arm bolts to see if they was slotted to move it back slightly but no slots i cannot see on mine how I would solve that by moving anything as nothing that could solve it is moveable hope you get an answer soon Dave I have emailed Hegner direct with your picture and I used yours Paul (hope you don not mind me using the photos) to show them how mine sits if I get an answer I will update here for you good luck 

Hey Frank, I am actively in the process of cutting a project.  I just turned  the saw off long enough to take the pictures....  I do not dust under the saw every time I stop the saw to move the blade from one hole to the next!!  And the only reason there is that much dust is because I keep forgetting to move the bottom nozzle of my dust collection back in place where it belongs after changing the blade.  I'm old, I forget!

[Scrappile]

Well, Dave, does that answer help or not?  One other thing I learned, when I used different saws, I also use different blades.  To make the same cut in the same wood, I will use one blade on my Seyco, but a different blade on the Hegner.  All related to the aggressiveness of the saw, I suppose.

I just finish cutting another 2nd Amendment wall hanging.  Did it all on my Hegner,,,,, I love that saw. Mine does have definite sweet spots.  It has some vibration at different speed and I run the speed up a little and it just smooths out so fine.  Then there is another sweet spot at an even faster speed, and lucky for me those two spots are the speeds I like to scroll. 

[Dave Monk]

13 hours ago, hotshot said:

I think that explanation works pretty good . . . for the user that was expecting zero blade motion, but noticed some very minor movement or changes in blade angle throughout the stroke. It was very very well written, and they should really include that in their documentation.  

I don't think the email answers one very simple question, which is, if the blade is correctly positioned in the clamps, is that angle to be expected at the top of the stroke?  I would interpret the answer to be, the saw is locked in to the optimal settings, so if there is a problem, it has to be the blade orientation in the clamps (or a damaged saw).  If the problem was vibration, and you got an very detailed explanation back about how the saw was designed to be vibration free, and all settings were locked in to assure that, but when you turned on the saw, it danced across the floor, well, regardless of the explanation, the explanation doesn't affect the reality of your experience.

Ironically, his explanation fit's right in line with what I observe with the Hawk.  On the Hawk, you can change the blade angle, however, since it moves throughout the stroke, fixing it at the top of the stroke does't mean it stays perpendicular in the middle or bottom.  His explanation makes my Hawk blade motion/angle make sense.

Dave, check the angle at "mid" stroke.  Also, if you try to compensate by moving the blade forward in the bottom clamp so that at "mid-stroke" it is perpendicular, how does it look at the top and bottom of the stroke?  On the Hawk, I adjust to perpendicular at mid stroke, then just don't worry about it.

(Only areas of his letter that I don't agree with in terms of a rational explanation was the reason the design of the saw couldn't be improved so that the arm lifted higher.  That part was Bull.  If a customer  can tweak a couple of things and have it work without issues, then that proves that explanation is bull.  But, Advanced is in a tough position as they are not the manufacturers and are not the engineers.  I doubt they have a lot of influence on the engineers at Hegner that haven't changed the mechanics of that saw for more than 30 years.)

This is a response I got back today. You picked right up on my thought. 

 

Hi again Dave,

Yes - your blade situation seems normal!  I should have told you that, but also certainly would have mentioned it if I had any concerns.

As to why we don't give customers clamp position adjustment options:

1)  There is no need: there are too few situations where there would even be an incremental benefit in some performance category, and none where there would be a significant one, even if the blade angle could be changed.  And that small "benefit" would always come at the expense of a different, likely more meaningful desirable feature. One of our long-time competitors did this with their saws many, many years ago (before they went bankrupt!), basically a gimmick they tried to use to differentiate themselves from us.  Not only did it fail to help their sales - it tended to cause more confusion than anything else.

2)  The complexity of analyzing when to possibly make which adjustment is such that it would be well beyond the interest and/or capacities of the typical user to adequately understand. And none of this would change the blade MOTION anyway, because that is a function of arm pivot point location.

Bottom line:  this feature wouldn't make our saw a better product.

The ONLY truly meaningful blade motion adjustment is to the aggressiveness of the stroke vs. control over the blade, i.e. a reduction in total forward/back excursion, which is a function of stroke length. And unlike on any other saw I know, this CAN be done on most HEGNER High-Performance Precision Saws, including yours.

And of course, if you REALLY want to change your blade angle anyway, all you have to do is change the blade location in the blade clamps!

Instructions for changing (shortening) stroke length are in our online manual, and it takes maybe 4-5 minutes to do (once you've done it and get a feel for the process).  You shorten the vertical movement by about 40%, which in turn reduces the lateral movement by a roughly similar percentage, although the impact in terms of "feel" is far greater.  But remember, this is not desirable for cuts in materials more than perhaps 3/8" or so thick, unless you are sawing something particularly light, such as balsa or styrofoam.

Dave, I hope my answers make sense.  If you need anything else, you now how to reach me!

Best regards,

Hanns

[hotshot]

I think changing the stroke length would be a very bad idea, and am a little surprised he mentioned that.  I don't know of anyone using the shorter stroke.  Hans was right about being able to adjust blade angle by moving the blade forward or backward in the clamps.  I would definitely see if you can experiment a little to get a more perpendicular situation.  My saw is over 30 years older than your saw, but the blade at the top of the stroke seems to be more perpendicular than your new saw.  Actually, I have the sneaking suspicion our saws are identical in there basic build, but we are just missing something simple here.  It is a little confusing problem because it just shouldn't happen, but the mystery is highly interesting.  It's almost like the blade isn't going all the way to the back of the QuickClamp, but if that was the case, the classic clamp on top would have solved it.

Another test for you, see what the actual front to back blade travel is down close to the table.   Also, how is the vibration through the entire range?   

At the end of the day, you will need to figure out the value proposition of the support and performance you are getting, and weigh that against the price you paid for it.  I hope you can get to a place where you are happy with the saw, but if not, you can always return it.

Edited November 21, 2017 by hotshot

[blights69]

17 hours ago, Scrappile said:

Hey Frank, I am actively in the process of cutting a project.  I just turned  the saw off long enough to take the pictures....  I do not dust under the saw every time I stop the saw to move the blade from one hole to the next!!  And the only reason there is that much dust is because I keep forgetting to move the bottom nozzle of my dust collection back in place where it belongs after changing the blade.  I'm old, I forget!

I think I have remembered to put the bottom nozzle back in place once maybe twice lol glad I am not the only one 

[blights69]

On 12/11/2017 at 3:44 PM, Dave Monk said:

My new saw the blade is out further at the top than the bottom. Is it supposed to be? Is there an adjustment for that? Thanks for your comments.

Shame you are not in the UK Dave this is the answer I got from my email to Hegner where I have an account:

Dear Frank,

 

Thank you for your email, I’m very sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

 

I have spoken to our in house engineer and he is not too sure how this could have happened either. He’s quite curious to get his hands on the saw to have a look.

 

Could you please forward the customers information on to me as we will look into getting this saw collected for inspection and repair or replacement (dependant on the outcome of that inspection).

 

I look forward to hearing from you shortly.

 

Kind Regards

Chris Wilson
Technical Support Advisor

 

Does not help with why but an engineer would of took a good look at it and if no fix found straight replacement may be worth contacting your supplier and bringing it up they should do the same. On the other side of the coin if the main Hegner engineers have not seen this issue before and want to look at it to see why it could be an issue with the clamp position blade position etc and not a fault with the saw may be a good thing if you get what I am saying, I would definateley throw an email to your supplier I would even tell them Hegner main office do not know what it is and recommend an engineer look at it they will probably just swap for a new one I am guessing and send back to who they get them from for a look at. Good luck sorting it out . 

Edited November 17, 2017 by blights69

[OCtoolguy]

On 11/12/2017 at 5:49 PM, Rockytime said:

Thank you very much. I'll find it and try it. I have wanted to point out things on a photo but had no knowledge how to do it.

I found it and installed it but there is going to be quite a learning curve involved. I was hoping for something that would just give me a bunch of things that I could just drag and drop onto a picture. NOT!

Ray

 

[Jim Finn]

I put these arrows in this photo using "Paint"  .  It came with my computer and I use it to open any photos or patterns.   Very simple to do.

[OCtoolguy]

On 11/19/2017 at 4:24 AM, Jim Finn said:

I put these arrows in this photo using "Paint"  .  It came with my computer and I use it to open any photos or patterns.   Very simple to do.

I messed around with Paint too. I figured out how to do what you did but I couldn't figure out how to fill the arrows with a color different for the outline of them. But, I only messed for about  5 minutes before the activities director made me leave.

[Jim Finn]

Like this?

[OCtoolguy]

1 minute ago, Jim Finn said:

Like this?

Exactly but using a "fill" command. I know it's there but I just didn't find it yet.

 

[Jim Finn]

Well the "fill" command does not do a great job so I used a wide line in a different color and drew it inside the arrows.

[Iguanadon]

On 11/12/2017 at 5:29 PM, Rockytime said:

I often see photos with an arrow pointing to something specific.Can anyone tell me how that is done? Perhaps this should be a separate discussion. But here goes.

I've used Jing for years.  It allows you to do a "screen capture" and then add text, arrows, etc.  I literally use it on a daily basis to screen capture something and share it.  You can download it here and there are tutorials.  Very simple to use once you get familiar with it.  https://www.techsmith.com/jing-tool.html

 

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Iguanadon

[Jim Finn]

On 11/20/2017 at 4:59 PM, octoolguy said:

Exactly but using a "fill" command. I know it's there but I just didn't find it yet.

 

The fill command does not work well.  

[OCtoolguy]

2 hours ago, Iguanadon said:

I've used Jing for years.  It allows you to do a "screen capture" and then add text, arrows, etc.  I literally use it on a daily basis to screen capture something and share it.  You can download it here and there are tutorials.  Very simple to use once you get familiar with it.  https://www.techsmith.com/jing-tool.html

 

 

I see that is by TechSmith. I wonder if it's like Snagit.

 

[OCtoolguy]

3 hours ago, Iguanadon said:

I've used Jing for years.  It allows you to do a "screen capture" and then add text, arrows, etc.  I literally use it on a daily basis to screen capture something and share it.  You can download it here and there are tutorials.  Very simple to use once you get familiar with it.  https://www.techsmith.com/jing-tool.html

 

 

Thanks a whole bunch Scott. I just installed it, got frustrated over having to establish an account. I managed to do that only to capture a pic and when I wanted to edit it, it took me to Snagit which I already had. But, now I have another learning curve to use it. Darn, will I never learn it all?

Ray

 

[Ronny80]

Il 13/11/2017 alle 01:58, Dave Monk ha detto:

 

Hai risolto?

[Ronny80]

On 13/11/2017 at 01:58, Dave Monk said:

 

Have you solved?