Official Time Test - Hawk -vs- DeWalt

[Lucky2]

5 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Len do not be afraid to jump in. It is not anything here that  is gospel. I probably took Iggy's original posting and took it down a different path but that is what we do. Maybe I am or maybe I did miss the entire point. I just could not and still can not see the justification of speed when scrolling anything. I understand all the desires to meet deadlines and order numbers and quantity numbers but they are just numbers. No one is holding a gun to these guys heads telling them to do it or else.  So many factors go into doing tests against saws. If someone knows of tests like this that have been done against the top brand names I would be interested in reading. I posted this question on another forum trying to get outside info because I have never seen testing like this. Come on in and play. No right or wrong answers. 

John, thanks for the invitation, but I think I'll have to reject it. I have no issue with anything you stated, and I don't see any sense in banging my head up against the wall either.

Len

[hotshot]

Kev, it occurred to me that, it could be that if you move you spent blade from the Hawk to the 788, the aggressive action might make it feel like it has more life.  That is to say, maybe that Hawk doesn’t dull the blade faster, but maybe it needs sharper blades because of the less aggressive cutting.  That is one test that would be easy to do.

Edited January 18, 2018 by hotshot

[kmmcrafts]

Had not thought of doing that.. Maybe once I get my parts in from Bushton and get my saw back together I'll give it a try..

[SCROLLSAW703]

FACT Mr. JT! It comes down to, imo, like I said, how much blade is runnin' in the project, & how fast the blade CAN handle the cut. The more blade cuttin' the project, the longer the blade life, which in turn means less TIME changin' blades in a production setting. BUT, like Iggy, time is money. So, why not study all the ins & outs of speedin' up his operation?  Again, imo, from experience, every blade is goin' to cut different in other breeds of saws. There are other factors to look at, I think, too. Rate of feed, species of wood, thickness of material, etc. Get honest. 

You can beat a dead horse til it bleeds, but everybody has different saw set ups, technique, what have ya. Blade preference, tension preference, etc. But you still have to look at what the machine is designed to do. Period. Like I stated in my last post. Ya have to learn the machine.

For instance, kevin, you were one hollerin' at me about pictures. I'll put some on. As soon as my sawbones says I've recouped enough from these two heart attacks to get back to my shop. But, case in point Sir, I cut my own feathers for my dream catchers. With my 26, it takes about an hour to cut a stack of 5 feathers 3/32" thick each, usin' an Olson #0 blade. With the SAME blade, same amount of feathers to cut, w/my CW - 40, I can cut them in about 45 minutes. The ones off the CW - 40 ain't as smooth cut as what the Hawk cut at the same speed. The difference, first off, the cut distance is shorter on the Hitachi, therefore usin' less blade in the project. And, it's an entry level saw. The 26, set at the same speed, cuts smoother, no breakage, & every small cut is made smooth & even. The difference, the 26 is designed for precision cuttin'. If you're a perfectionist, & I am, THAT is the main reason I own a 26. & other Hawks behind it. IMO, it is designed for perfection, not racing. As Mr. JT would say, knock yer socks off provin' to me otherwise. Were I you Sir, I would go to the drawin' board & design a saw & blades to fit your needs. My apologies if'n this ol' country boy offended ya, Sir.

[kmmcrafts]

Some people are sounding offended because I said the Hawk can't cut as fast as my DeWalt.. I've never said I don't like my Hawk.. I've never said it's a piece of junk saw.. I've never stated the DeWalt is a better saw.... I don't believe I've implied anything degrading to either saw.. I like both saws VERY much for different reasons..  I've simply stated a Hawk is slower cutting saw and many of the others have agreed that they are slower less aggressive cutting.. I don't understand why it all gets taken out of context..  I've simply stated two things about the Hawk I've observed and that is.. It's slower cutting... and blades don't last as long.. 

While maybe I should have stated it's slower cutting for ME.. blades don't last as long for ME... which could be because I end up pushing harder on the wood as it's not chopping away as fast as I LIKE to cut.. though I do not believe that to be true simply because over the coarse of my time on message boards over the last 12 years I've observed that many others state the same exact thing.. Precision cutting? YES.. very much so compared to the other saws I've used over the years..

 

 

[Rolf]

I am a technical guy and I really enjoy these types of evaluations and comparisons, are they useful, probably not. But they are interesting at least to me.  Very early on I started timing my cutting with a timer that ran when the saw did (tied into my foot switch) I got lots of harassment(fun). I did it for two reasons I wanted to see if project times improved as I got more relaxed and comfortable with my saw. There are several Volker Arnold design ornaments that are part of my regular stock. When I started it took me 1.5 hours and several broken blades and very cramped hands, that same ornament now takes me ~40min (stack of six) and no cramps. It also gave me an idea of how long my Olson 2/0 lasted before they would break. With experience I now feel when they are going to break.

I also need to keep track of my time when doing work for the magazine. 

[hotshot]

I think critical critiques of the saws may be a no win.  I personally love critical assessments, but candid conversations are hard to have in the forums without a lot of emotion.  I love all my saws for different reasons, but if someone came on the forum and said:

788s/Deltas are nice but for some work are over aggressive and seem to wear out with less hours than the higher end saws.

The EX/Clones are great, but the dust collection system sucks, the clamps easily strip, and the stability of the patents holders and the manufacturing companies making them are questionable

Jet seems promising, but the top clamps may need tweaking if you change blade sizes radically, or if you want to top feed, you can forget it.

Hegners are Awesome, unless you prefer top feeding, a big table, aggressive cutting, affordability.  You can use as a clamp firing rifle.

Hawks are exceptional, except the Owners don't run their company like a business, the adjustments are tricky, and the clamps swing, and the aggression settings change the angle of the blade making the higher aggressive settings useless for puzzle type applications

Ryobi, Harbor Freight, Wen (and all the saws that look like them have bottom clamps that are incredibly inaccessible) and are tools evidently designed for torture.

Proxxon sure is pretty, but the 115 model specifically is more useless than stuff used to add nutrients to my garden.

CW40, Rexon, PCB 370, Craftsman, Tradesmen, and all the saws that look like the CW40 are great beginner saws, except they wear like a 788, are bottom feed only, and the dust collection panel has to be removed in order to easily access the bottom clamp, and has a table almost as small as the Hegner.

Eclipse may be the best saw ever, except changing blades seems a little clumsy, it was very very expensive, and it seems to have died with Ernie.

......if someone were to actually say that . . . wholly Molly would that be bad.  :-)

I actually love and appreciate most of those saws, (except Proxxon and Ryobi/clones, which I got rid of, and hate without out bounds).  

-----Randy

Edited January 19, 2018 by hotshot

[Iguanadon]

Ha!  Nice to see my topic is still alive and well as I've been focused on the ribbon cutting event for my map business.  Pictures of the event from last night.  Yes, I used some of my puzzles as decoration.  LOL

Keep the "discussion" going.  

[kmmcrafts]

Looks like it was a good turn out and a good time.. Surprised you didn't video the ribbon cutting for all to watch :( 

Hope your newest path turns out very well for you..

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Did all those people need a map on how to get there or did they just use Alexa or Siri??/  Just kidding Good luck.

[Iguanadon]

8 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Did all those people need a map on how to get there or did they just use Alexa or Siri??/  Just kidding Good luck.

LOL, people seem to find their way to free events with alcohol infused gelato.  ;-)

It was a good turn out considering it's the middle of winter.  I just need to sign 10 more businesses to advertise on the map and I'll be happy.

[trackman]

Iggy I hope you like fishing-because you sure opened a HUGE can of worms with your original  post!  LOL 

[rjweb]

congradulations on your new business, hope all goes well, RJ

PS are they the sissors you use to cut your patterns

Edited January 19, 2018 by rjweb

[SCROLLSAW703]

ehhh, kevin, if you're implyin' I'm one of those that seems to be "upset",  you've misunderstood. 

Make no mistake, I'll defend the Hawk in every way, & am entitled to my opinion. 
You seem to be creative, & like a lot of us here, have a mechanical mind. All I'm sayin' boss, is put that mind to work. Take all these ideas you're kickin' out & design your own machine to suit your needs, & will run the way you want it to. 
Otherwise, you're goin' the long way around the barn, brother. Everybody has their own likes & dislikes in saws, blades, wood, etc. We have to accept that, & help each other make improvements. 

On the other hand Kevin, you can keep beatin' a situation til ya drive folks crazy! That's part of why I made the suggestion to sit down to the drawin' board & design a saw that fits you & your needs. 

[stoney]

Ok Iggy  you asked for it so I'll do my bit to keep this thread going.   Unlike David Allen Coe's The Prefect Country Song, there doesn't appear to be a perfect scroll saw that everyone agrees on.   At my age my perspective is naturally going to be somewhat biased compared to some of the younger whipper snappers here. LOL   I personally couldn't care less how fast one scroll saw cuts in comparison to others.   Of course I say this because I don't use one for production cutting.   That being said I do understand why that might be one of the primary concerns of some of our members.  From what I have learned here and through my personal experience It appears that at least for now Hawk and Hegner are both low maintenance scroll saws.   I think that fact alone might influence my decision even if I was into a production enterprise.   I don't now and never have liked mechanical equipment that is prone to high maintenance.        

Edited January 20, 2018 by stoney

[kmmcrafts]

Giving everyone some time to fill up your popcorn bowls and pull up a comfy chair..  

[rjweb]

Alright Kevin, I have popcorn in one hand and a beer in other, waiting, RJ 

[kmmcrafts]

This will be delayed for quite a while.. better eat the popcorn before it goes stale.. I had a good reply topic but guess what.. The mailman brought me my parts I ordered on Monday for my Hawk.. and it's a nice warm day 32F so.. I'm headed to the shop to get my 226VS back together.. and the new upgrade for my old 220VS part came too.. so I'll get that one upgraded.. tonight too.. I hope..

   

[jbrowning]

You're such a tease Kevin.

[SCROLLSAW703]

Ain't he though, Mr. browning? I'm anxious to hear about your workings on your 26. Mine is my work horse, when my Sawbones allows me to work in the shop. I have other saws set up for other purposes. 

Hopefully it will do you an awesome job, my friend.

[Rolf]

Ok Kevin, you have me curious what parts are you replacing?

Regarding designing the perfect saw. I would probably end up with something very much like my Hawk G4 with the Detlta Quick clamps modification. 

I tried putting the Delta clamps on the bottom also but could not get comfortable with that. 

Iggy we have drifted way off your original topic so I will start a new one on the subject of what we would look for in a "perfect" saw.

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Rolf

[kmmcrafts]

22 hours ago, Rolf said:

I am a technical guy and I really enjoy these types of evaluations and comparisons, are they useful, probably not. But they are interesting at least to me.  Very early on I started timing my cutting with a timer that ran when the saw did (tied into my foot switch) I got lots of harassment(fun). I did it for two reasons I wanted to see if project times improved as I got more relaxed and comfortable with my saw. There are several Volker Arnold design ornaments that are part of my regular stock. When I started it took me 1.5 hours and several broken blades and very cramped hands, that same ornament now takes me ~40min (stack of six) and no cramps. It also gave me an idea of how long my Olson 2/0 lasted before they would break. With experience I now feel when they are going to break.

I also need to keep track of my time when doing work for the magazine. 

That's a really cool idea, Where  did you get a timer and how did you hook the timer up.. Seems like I recall Steve Good doing a thing on this.. maybe I'll search for that.. I had forgot about that until you mentioned it.

 

[kmmcrafts]

18 minutes ago, Rolf said:

Ok Kevin, you have me curious what parts are you replacing?

Regarding designing the perfect saw. I would probably end up with something very much like my Hawk G4 with the Detlta Quick clamps modification. 

I tried putting the Delta clamps on the bottom also but could not get comfortable with that. 

Iggy we have drifted way off your original topic so I will start a new one on the subject of what we would look for in a "perfect" saw.

 

I started a new topic with the story on the parts I replaced etc.

http://www.scrollsawvillage.com/forums/topic/27532-hawk-226-ultra-is-back-up-and-running/

[Rolf]

timer I have one of these( a dumpster rescue) but an analog plug in clock works also. I have an outlet strip plugged into my foot switch. the saw and the timer is plugged into it. I also have a timer that keeps track of my total saw hours for maintenance reasons.  

This timer is easy to reset, but it is a bit pricey.

[Rockytime]

5 hours ago, Rolf said:

timer I have one of these( a dumpster rescue) but an analog plug in clock works also. I have an outlet strip plugged into my foot switch. the saw and the timer is plugged into it. I also have a timer that keeps track of my total saw hours for maintenance reasons.  

This timer is easy to reset, but it is a bit pricey.

Similar to the one I used in the darkroom years ago.