Hawk versus DeWalt Part 2

[Iguanadon]

So... although not everyone agrees, many agree the Hawk cuts less aggressively (slower) than a DeWalt.  I wondered if there was some front to back blade action/movement that might explain it so I shot this quick video and the results are the exact opposite of what I expected.  I thought I'd see more front to back movement with the DeWalt.  Again, just something I did out of curiosity. 

If you click the GEARS button in the lower right corner and slow the speed down to .25 you can see it even better.  And of course in full screen mode.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Iguanadon

[kmmcrafts]

I've done the same test about a month after getting my first Hawk.. ( Just didn't video the process.. thank you for taking the time to clarify the same findings I had ) I sort of think it's more to do with the blade clamping design being able to rotate on the Hawk as opposed to the fixed / rigid position of the DeWalt.. If you put a blade in both saws.. get a board and with the saw off.. push against the blade with some firm but moderate pressure.. You'll find the Hawk saw has more flex to the blade.. While i don't think this is the total reason for the saw being less aggressive and slower cutting..

[lawson56]

Something I did not know.Thanks Iggy Always learning here at the Village.

[Lucky2]

Iggy, can't you adjust the tilt to the blade on these saws? I know you can on the Dewalt, but I'm not to sure about the Hawk. So how you have your saw set could make a difference in your findings, could it not? Plus, how you place the blade into the blade holder, could also make a bit of difference also. Plus, I knew the Dewalt was adjustable, so I wasn't real interested in the results. On saws that have the possibility of being adjusted, you can change the amount of forward motion. Have you ever adjusted your Dewalts cutting agressivness, if you have the study is of no value. So it's a moot point, you can change the saw to suit your style of cutting. I wish that when your reporting your findings, that you would include this type of information. Because for someone looking to buy a saw, might find it important. Plus, it could affect their decision making process. 

Len

[Iguanadon]

2 hours ago, Lucky2 said:

Iggy, can't you adjust the tilt to the blade on these saws? I know you can on the Dewalt, but I'm not to sure about the Hawk. So how you have your saw set could make a difference in your findings, could it not? Plus, how you place the blade into the blade holder, could also make a bit of difference also. Plus, I knew the Dewalt was adjustable, so I wasn't real interested in the results. On saws that have the possibility of being adjusted, you can change the amount of forward motion. Have you ever adjusted your Dewalts cutting agressivness, if you have the study is of no value. So it's a moot point, you can change the saw to suit your style of cutting. I wish that when your reporting your findings, that you would include this type of information. Because for someone looking to buy a saw, might find it important. Plus, it could affect their decision making process. 

Len

Hey Len, this video/test had nothing to do with blade angle, I was looking to see if there was front to back movement when the saw was running based on the arm configuration of the saws.

[stevan]

I don't own a Dewalt but I do own an older Hawk and your findings support what I also discovered.  I found that when I went to push against the back of the blade to rotate the work, the work wanted to move back and forth more than I was expecting.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Better than a video Iggy, because it is so hard to tell at least for me even at low speeds to see any difference, to use a machinist square. There are 2 ways to make sure your blade is cutting at it optimist. I am sure you and most scrollers are familiar with those methods. The first is to make sure the table is referenced  90 degrees to the blade. Not that the table is level. Take a straight edge and place against the back edge of the blade on each side of the blade after you installed a blade in the clamps. I like to use a small machinist square for this. There should be no spacing between the blade and square on both sides. You need to just kiss the side of the blade because any pushing of the blade throws off the test. You adjust the table left or right till you get it perfect. Now the blade is trued to the table and your cuts should be straight up and down. You could also use the cutting test where you cut a slot and then reverse the wood to the back of the blade and it should slip into slot easily. If not adjustments are needed. 

The next test is to see the forward and backward motion of said blade. This is done with the same square set at the back of the blade. As you by hand push the arm up and down you will observe the travel of the blade from its top stroke position to bottom stroke position. The ideal position is to have the same amount of gap at both the top and bottom of the stroke with the center part of the stroke having the blade flat against the blade. This test will give you a better view of your saws blade travels and you can see how aggressive it cuts. If more gap at the top stroke then it is set for more aggressive cutting. Again this all depends how you install the blade in the clamp. I like to bottom out my blade at all times so I know it is the same for every blade. Some saws allow you to set the blade a little forward in the clamp and this will allow more aggressive cutting. When I got my Dewalt I wanted my saw to cut as perfect straight up and down as possible. I showed the photo here before of how I had to adjust the back end of the table to allow this. Back then Dewalt saws were known for their aggressive cutting action because the top of the blade was a larger gap than at the bottom of the stroke. The RBI has ways that this can be accomplished too. But for me I like to be straight up and down. Maybe this is why I do not see the speed difference in the 2 saws. I can post that photo again if someone is interested.

[Rockytime]

JT, I'd like to see those photos.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

5 hours ago, Rockytime said:

JT, I'd like to see those photos.

What photos are they??? If this is what you are asking. This topic came up before and I tried to find the thread. To fix the aggressiveness of the Dewat there are 2 methods. This was mine. There is a method that moves I believe the upper blade clamping system. This is that video.

 

[Rockytime]

Thank you for posting the photo and video. I have never seen any scroll saws besides the Hawks I have. So I have been curious after this discussion.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Like I said if neither Iggy or Kevin did not correct this then their saws will cut more aggressive than mine for sure. 

[OCtoolguy]

On 1/18/2018 at 8:23 AM, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Better than a video Iggy, because it is so hard to tell at least for me even at low speeds to see any difference, to use a machinist square. There are 2 ways to make sure your blade is cutting at it optimist. I am sure you and most scrollers are familiar with those methods. The first is to make sure the table is referenced  90 degrees to the blade. Not that the table is level. Take a straight edge and place against the back edge of the blade on each side of the blade after you installed a blade in the clamps. I like to use a small machinist square for this. There should be no spacing between the blade and square on both sides. You need to just kiss the side of the blade because any pushing of the blade throws off the test. You adjust the table left or right till you get it perfect. Now the blade is trued to the table and your cuts should be straight up and down. You could also use the cutting test where you cut a slot and then reverse the wood to the back of the blade and it should slip into slot easily. If not adjustments are needed. 

The next test is to see the forward and backward motion of said blade. This is done with the same square set at the back of the blade. As you by hand push the arm up and down you will observe the travel of the blade from its top stroke position to bottom stroke position. The ideal position is to have the same amount of gap at both the top and bottom of the stroke with the center part of the stroke having the blade flat against the blade. This test will give you a better view of your saws blade travels and you can see how aggressive it cuts. If more gap at the top stroke then it is set for more aggressive cutting. Again this all depends how you install the blade in the clamp. I like to bottom out my blade at all times so I know it is the same for every blade. Some saws allow you to set the blade a little forward in the clamp and this will allow more aggressive cutting. When I got my Dewalt I wanted my saw to cut as perfect straight up and down as possible. I showed the photo here before of how I had to adjust the back end of the table to allow this. Back then Dewalt saws were known for their aggressive cutting action because the top of the blade was a larger gap than at the bottom of the stroke. The RBI has ways that this can be accomplished too. But for me I like to be straight up and down. Maybe this is why I do not see the speed difference in the 2 saws. I can post that photo again if someone is interested.

I'd be interested in seeing it. I don't see where there is any way to adjust the back of the table either up or down without filing or some other method. I hate to alter the parts of the saw to make adjustments. 

Ray

 

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Ray, I was talking about the Dewalt saw. Seems to be a serious discussion about the Hawk and the Dewalt. IN the lower photo I show what I did to improve the forward motion of the blade on a dewalt. I calculated the amount I needed and made a shim. Then had to enlarge the 2 side holes to be able to secure the table. The Hawk as the ability to do this with the placement of the bottom clamp so no further adjustment is needed. Anyone who uses a Dewalt especially for delicate work and marquetry work usually made some sort of adjustment. There is a scrolling club that goes to a woodworking show that I attend and they showed me that trick. I believe Rick Hutcheson has done this also and maybe on his site. That fix was popular with the Type #1 saws coming out of Canada which I have. What the saws look like now as far as that aggressiveness is something I do not know because I never measured on a newer saw. I believe both Iggy and Kevin have a newr saw and never made that adjustment and it is set up to be more aggressive in cutting. So it is unfair for me to compare any more. In my mind and on my saws the way I have them set up they cut the same speed. I do not tell anyone to alter anything but will offer my solutions if I found a way to improve something. It is only metal. My saw is way beyond warrenty. 

[hotshot]

You know, I've known about this adjustment for years, but I didn't really understand the mechanics of why this tweak worked, but I think I got it now.

They angle the blade back at the bottom, so that when the blade goes down, the forward motion is counteracted by the angle of the blade.  I'm still trying to get my head around what the impact of angling the blade like that would be.  If I'm right, on a saw that has this adjustment, the blade travel at the top would remain the same.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Randy, Here is what I can tell you. When the Dewalt saw came from the factory it had an aggressive cutting action in that when the blade came down into the wood it was forward more and then rock backwards. This is what everyone is talking about that the RBI has a more straight up and down motion and does not rock forward much. You can change that setting by moving the bottom clamp. Now the top clamp stays the same so it is now forward of the bottom clamp making it an aggressive cut. What I did is take the aggression out of the dewalt saw by making the top and bottom clamp equal. Whatever rocking motion you get from blade travel is now minimal. Both saws even though they use different arm configurations are about the same aggressiveness at least on my saws. As I said I am not sure how the newer dewalts are coming through but easy to test if you use the method I explained with the straight edge in the back of the blade and move the arm up and down by hand and watching the spacing between straightedge and blade as you do this. Not sure about other saws either but again an easy test to do as I explained. I do not have a video camera so I can not set up a video of my set up. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[hotshot]

31 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Randy, Here is what I can tell you. ...

Yep, been following the issue for a long time, and I also have a DW Type 1.  I'm pretty confident I understand what is going on with that tweak, but I like the way my 788 is cutting, so no reason for me to mess with it.

There is one important difference in Hawk aggression, and DW aggression.  When the DW rocks forward, the angle of the blade to the table is still perpendicular (unless you apply the tweak).  This is why, even with blade travel, that travel doesn't affect the vertical cut.  On the Hawk, you increase aggression by tilting the blade, which is an entirely different mechanism, and is why Iggy can't increase the agression on the Hawk without messing up his puzzles.  The mechanics are completely different.

------Randy

Edited January 20, 2018 by hotshot

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

14 minutes ago, hotshot said:

Yep, been following the issue for a long time, and I also have a DW Type 1.  I'm pretty confident I understand what is going on with that tweak, but I like the way my 788 is cutting, so no reason for me to mess with it.

There is one important difference in Hawk aggression, and DW aggression.  When the DW rocks forward, the angle of the blade to the table is still perpendicular (unless you apply the tweak).  On the Hawk, you increase aggression by tilting the blade, which is an entirely different mechanism, and is why Iggy can't increase the agression on the Hawk without messing up his puzzles.  The mechanics are completely different.

------Randy

Agreed Randy and in fact if you read my post to him I mentioned that. His counterpoint was a straight line cut. Many times it comes down to what you became familar with Have you cut coins on the Dewalt and done fine detail work with it?? 

[hotshot]

51 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Agreed Randy and in fact if you read my post to him I mentioned that. His counterpoint was a straight line cut. Many times it comes down to what you became familar with Have you cut coins on the Dewalt and done fine detail work with it?? 

Until recently, I've been using the EX exclusively for coins.  I've tried a few saws with coins, but the EX has always been my primary.  For coin cutting, I can handle some blade travel, but I still prefer minimal blade travel.  Because of the minimal blade travel of the Hawk, I was hoping the Hawk would be the perfect coin cutting saw, and it certainly fits the bill in regards to minimal travel.  With that in mind,  I've been running the Hawk BM26 as my primary for coin cutting, trying to make it work for that project type.  I have been using some custom clamp knobs on the Hawk that have a insert similar to the DW/EX/Seyco/Jet line of saws, and that has eliminated the issues of twisting the very small blades.  However, there are other physics that are applied because of the design of the Hawk that makes it very hard on very small blades.  Since the mechanics of the Hawk use the blade as part of the mechanisms to drive the top arm, the faster the Hawk runs, the more stress it exerts on the blade.  

So the very little blade travel on the Hawk is ideal, getting the clamp knob situation resolved eliminated another major roadblock, but the physics of the Hawk (or Hegner) mean I have to run the saw at a much lower speed than I need, and even then , the stresses on the blades mean I'm continually changing blades as they break quite often.  Needless to say, I have been breaking a lot of 2/0 Jewelers blades.  The #5/0 that I use to create the ultra sharp inside corners, I can not use with the Hawk at all.  If someone want to try coin cutting on the Hawk or Hegner, they can certainly try it out, and make it work if they run very slow, but if they are going to get into it coin cutting seriously, they probably need a saw where the blades isn't part of the "drive train."

So, in defense of the Hawk,  the ability of the Hawk to effectively cut coins is pretty meaningless to about everyone else.  However, the Hawk can cut puzzle boxes thicker than I can cut on any other scroll saw I have.  So for those projects, the Hawk isn't just the best choice, it is the only choice.  Another project type where the Hawk and Hegner have the advantage is when using a spiral blade.  Moving the work piece sideways, with spirals, with a saw that exhibits a lot of blade travel could create some interesting lines.

There is no "best at everything" Scroll Saw!

-----Randy 

Edited January 20, 2018 by hotshot

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

We have had this conversation before. I have an older Hawk and I have cut with jewelers blades as low as #5 and do not break them. Do slow the saw down some but not drastic. at some point I will try cutting some coins. Have so much on my to do list now though. 

[hotshot]

JT, 5/0 not 5.  These are like a hair.  PM me your address and I’ll send you some.  

Edited January 20, 2018 by hotshot

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I meant to say 2/0 jewelers blades. I cut 1/8" brass with them. #5 blade is what I use for cutting wood most of the time. I know what they are like I gave you my source for blades. Maybe you need to try them.