Designing a perfect saw?

[Rolf]

There has been a great deal of discussion regarding saw performance , reliability, etc. We kind of dragged Iggy's post of in weird directions when all he was trying to do was give us some thoughts on what he is discovering with his saws. Thank you Iggy, I really appreciate your input.

Now back to the subject, and please lets not turn this into a saw bashing thing but instead really think about what you really would like to have in a saw.

My List.  In no particular order

1. Mechanically Simple, minimum of moving parts Reliable

2. Removable tool less clamps, not part of the structure, inexpensive to replace.  or clamps like the Old Delta lever clamps.

3. Variable blade stroke, not as fancy as the current Hawks but it could be a simple notch where one position is as vertical as possible the other aggressive.

4 .A good sized very flat table 

5. Must be capable of top and bottom feeding! 

6. Low vibration across a broad speed range.

7. Easy fast blade change and tensioning. 

8. Easy lower clamp access!

If I did a lot of bevel cutting I would like a tilting head like the EX's but it complicates the saw design.

I have used a fair number of saws but not all, there are things I like and don't like with each that I have used. But it seems I have described my Old G4 Hawk.

I would love to see an entry level saw with decent clamps,easy tensioning just like the Old Delta SS350 ($180 with stand)  it didn't top feed but blade changes were a snap.

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Rolf

[kmmcrafts]

I don't think I'd change much from what you listed there.. But.. I would like a variable adjustable blade angle ( which the new Hawks have ) so I could change the aggressiveness of the cut just where I need it.. My Ultra is not enough in the one slot and the other is just a tad too much for some of my cutting.. I've been known to stop in the middle of some cuts and release the tension to move the blade position from one to another ... having a motorized adjustable angle to adjust this on the fly with a separate foot peddle might be cool, LOL One in between would be good.. but variable would be great.. Now your going to call me crazy for that one. Hahaha

I like the old Delta clamps.. Wouldn't mind seeing something set up much like the Jet's upper clamp / tension with one lever.. ( However I have not used this type so may not like it ) The concept of it for a lot of fret type cutting seems like it would be awesome..

While I've never really made one.. there have been times I wish I had a zero clearance table insert.. Why did they stop making table inserts? and none of the high end brands never had a insert to begin with ( that I'm aware of )  

Upper arm must be spring loaded ( like the Hawks ) where when the blade is unhooked the arm goes up by itself..

Rather than a dust blower.. they need some sort of dust collection...   

But.. for me.. in a nutshell.. a Hawk BM series with Delta style clamps.. Personally I sort of like the fixed clamp rather than the removable.. and the only real advantage I see with removable clamps is having some other sized blades ready for cutting.. If I needed a spiral for doing some veining in a project.. But I find with the removable blade clamps is.. I forget what blade is in what clamp.. and most times end up just changing to a new one anyway.   

I often wonder how a variable speed foot peddle would be.. there are some instances where I'm on a long straight away and would like to speed up the saw some.. or the opposite.. while now that I am more experienced that is not a issue much anymore.. but do wonder if it'd come in handy for certain projects.. and could be helpful for a newbie..

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

This is one that will again draw alot from the saw you are currently using. Unless you are a guy like Steve Good who is able to use many different types of saws over the years and put them through the paces. To me I would not change a thing on my Hawk 220 or 226 except the plastic bottom clamp holder. But that was an easy fix. Now these saws are from an age when they just improved over the barrel clamps. 

I am not into a vac system on a scrollsaw. Listening to a vac while scrolling to me is nerve racking. After each session of scrolling I roll the vac over and vac around the saw. I have a shop air cleaner close by. Half the noise of the vac and I do not even realize it is on many times.  

From what I am reading the New Seyco saw is suppose to be the cream of the crop. They took many ideas from other saws as well as their older saw and made a good product. I have not tried it. Years ago all the saw companies use to come to woodworking shows to pedal their wares but none do this now at least my woodworking show. The last company was PSI who did that but that saw is in my opinion not worth the money.  

Edited January 20, 2018 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[hotshot]

Awesome, fantasy saw time:

High Level Top Priorities: 1.  Top feeding/bottom feeding operations are trivial.  2.  Low Vibration.  3.  Reliable/Servicable

Specific Thoughts:

From the Hegner, grab the simplicity of design.  Overall, I want a saw that I don't have to tweak/tune.  I want the alignment of the saw to be locked in the like the Hegner, so that there is no room for things to wiggle out of alignment.  Precise simple construction, that works out of the box every time. With minimal blade travel as the default.  Blade clamp mechanisms that is easy to get tight, but no risk of stripping the clamps.

From the Hawk, let the saw use as much of the blade as possible with long stroke.  I want the Hawk ability to Cut thick pieces.

From the earier Hawk, the change of aggression isn't an adjustment, it is a switch from one setting to another.  No trial and error to get it back to zero travel.

Like the DW/EX lineage of saws, I want both arms powered both directions independent of the blade.  Tension on the blade should be constant throughout the stroke.  Should be able to run any blade at any speed without causing any additional stress other that what inertia places on the blade itself.  I would rather aggression be created by adjustable forward movement of a perpendicular blade than angling the blades.  Again, this should be an configuration based on absolute stops, not an "adjustment" that requires tweaking to get it set back to zero travel. 

Like EX/Jet, built in mechanisms to hold up Arm.

Like the DW: All tensioning should be within easy reach.  

Like Ryobi, mass produced but not a premium placed on the "Brand" stamped on the saw.  Be unlike the Roybi in every other way.  Make a quality tool, mass produce it so that you get efficiency of scalescale, then make a "reasonable" profit.  A simple saw, abeit precise,  with simple components should not be cost prohibitive.

That bottom clamp has to be easy to get to, and use.  Most of our higher end saws already do that, but none of the lower end saws do.

I really do like the tilting Arm of the EX style saws, but would gladly sacrifice it to get some  of the other features.

 For me, no swinging clamps.

Like the eclipse, few moving parts, very very low vibration (or at least, that is how the Eclipse works in my dreams), but with blade changes as quick and easy as any other saw.  I have tried almost every lineage of saw out there, except the Eclipse.  I suspect my dreams would be dashed by reality if I were to actually get my hands on one.

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by hotshot

[stoney]

Well Rolf I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest I don't believe it would be all that difficult to design the perfect or near perfect scroll saw.  If a scroll saw was designed with the best  quality and user friendly features contained in some of the saws already on the market you would have a great product.   You have pretty much already described most of the features that would do the job.    A scroll saw of this design would  be considered high end and be handsomely priced.     Had a scroll saw like this been available when I bought my Hegner I would have definitely been interested.            

Edited January 20, 2018 by stoney

[SCROLLSAW703]

well kevin, sounds like ya got plenty of ideas to run with. Now you & your neighbor can get busy designin' it, brother. 

I think if I was dreamin' about the perfect saw, I wouldn't change anything about my 26. But, a bigger saw table with a zero insert, as mentioned, a variable speed foot switch. 

[Rolf]

Kevin I do like the spring loaded upper arm. I still remember a blade breaking on an older saw and it seemed like the the broken end was trying to stitch my finger. before I got to the switch.

I think having a variable speed foot pedal would end up giving you cramps trying to hold a steady speed.

I used the an eclipse at the first ever Scroll saw event I went to @ Fox Chapel maybe 2008? It was a very quiet smooth saw with an absolutely vertical stroke. But it was a very complex saw. I wonder what happened to all of the parts that were left. 

[Rockytime]

I had a variable speed foot switch on a watchmaker's lathe. Keeping a constant speed was always a problem. I switched to a router speed controller. Much better.

[Sycamore67]

Of course, this perfect saw needs to be very affordable.

[hotshot]

Ernie came up with a completely different mechanism for the scroll saw.  I think it is going to take that level of "re-think" to create a scroll saw that retains it's simplicity, yet drives the upper arm.  

However, I think it would be easy enough to come up with some improvement to current designs that would be feasible/easy to achieve if the manufactures would seek feedback about possible improvements from their customers.

Dewalt: Ship it with the mechanisms to hold the Arm up, should be trivial.  Improve the bearings to the point that they outlast the motor.  Beef up the motor to stand up to heavy use.  Dewalt could very easily create a membrane over their power switch which would prevent issues that have bitten many 788 users.  Beef up the circuit board to make those replacements less frequent.

Hawk: Bring the G4 back, use Rolfs' version of the improved clamp retaining clips.  Create perfect alignment in the base that does not require alignment if if gets jarred during shipping.  I will trade anyone my BM26 for a good working G4.

On the EX/Clones/Variants: Fix the clamps, please.  I want to be able to tighten the clamps without constantly worrying about stripping or spreading the clamps.  The stand is sturdy, but with that front cross bar, where am I supposed to put my feet?  Adjusting blade travel for the non-mechanically savvy is an issue.  I'm sure some users have given up on the EX type saws because they didn't understand that messing with the arm height would change blade travel, create vibration, and such.  I'm not sure how they would lock these setting in , but put some engineers on it to see what can be done.

Hegner already has a lot going for it, but tweak design to enable easy top feeding please.  I don't think a lot would have to be changed for that to happen, and I believe we had someone on the other forum that filed some stuff to accomplish a version of this. Give us some other options for the stand as tall and narrow does have some advantages, but may not be right for every person.  Give the customers the choice of a much larger table.

Ryobi (and the countless other sellers of this very poor saw design):  Delta Patents on most of their older small saws have expired and are now free game.  Some of those saws were small/simple and you should be able to reproduce very cheaply.  Give up your current designs' and copy this or another saw worth copying.  Hire a veteran scroll saw enthusiasts to sanity check your designs.

I don't think we are going to ever get the "best for everything saw", but, I think some of these changes would help.

Edited January 21, 2018 by hotshot

[orangeman]

I would add the ability of the saw to accommodate very fine jewelers blades to cut stamp puzzles like Carter Johnson showed us how to do.

Presently my DeWalt can do that. My Hegner saw can not!!!!!

I haven't tried it on my Hawk because the blade tensioning mechanism is a pain in the you know what.

bb

[Sycamore67]

An interesting thread and suggestions. Of course, there are things that could be improved.  However, there is a cost for these improvements.  What happens when the price of a the scroll saws goes up $100.  

While I might pay for the improvements, I am afraid that it might put the improved machines out of the reach of quite a few scrollers.

[hotshot]

10 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

..... Why did they stop making table inserts? and none of the high end brands never had a insert to begin with ( that I'm aware of )  ....

Hegner is putting inserts into their saws, one of the very few changes to their saws ever.

Edited January 21, 2018 by hotshot

[Dave Monk]

What do  you think about grease zerks for the bearings?

[crupiea]

To be honest I dont put that much thinking into my saw.  The saw is just a tool. we, we, are the artists.  if your saw is not getting you to where you need to be, get a new one.  Simple. 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

16 minutes ago, crupiea said:

To be honest I dont put that much thinking into my saw.  The saw is just a tool. we, we, are the artists.  if your saw is not getting you to where you need to be, get a new one.  Simple. 

Best line yet. This way of thinking can be applied to all tools. Why not have a saw just do the work for you as you sit back and have a beer. Oh yea CNC and lasers they have things like that. How about a handheld coping saw. If you ask 100 different scrollers this you will get 1000 different answers. Most of the top saws do what you are asking. They may go about it differently. I know it is a hypothetical question but any changes will mean retooling which will increase costs. Some saws there are simple little things that can be added but so can you if they are simple. As I said a true scroller designed the Seyco saw. Anyone have this saw and can give us feedback. Maybe that perfect saw is this. 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

25 minutes ago, Dave Monk said:

What do  you think about grease zerks for the bearings?

Dave that is not necessary. They do make quality bearings that will outlast the entire saw. Sealed bearings is nothing new. Why these companies do not use better ones is only guess work but it probably is a $$$ thing. If the things mentioned were added to the Dewalt it would put it out of the midrange saws and into the higher end saws. The market is more lucrative in the mid range than the higher end. 

[kmmcrafts]

41 minutes ago, crupiea said:

To be honest I dont put that much thinking into my saw.  The saw is just a tool. we, we, are the artists.  if your saw is not getting you to where you need to be, get a new one.  Simple. 

Can get pricey when we are talking "Quality" saws.. Can't imagine buying a $2000 dollar Hegner and not liking it so then move to a $1700 Hawk.. If your thinking like this.. you must have some deep pockets.. deeper than mine anyway.. 

[kmmcrafts]

44 minutes ago, Dave Monk said:

What do  you think about grease zerks for the bearings?

JT is right, there are some real expensive high end bearings that are made of quality material and grease.. I bought some higher end bearings for my DeWalt way back in 2011 when I rebuilt the front rocker assemblies.. and packed the bearings with high end synthetic grease.. Hasn't been touched since then.. but the originals was going bad just only 2 years old..

[kmmcrafts]

22 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Dave that is not necessary. They do make quality bearings that will outlast the entire saw. Sealed bearings is nothing new. Why these companies do not use better ones is only guess work but it probably is a $$$ thing. If the things mentioned were added to the Dewalt it would put it out of the midrange saws and into the higher end saws. The market is more lucrative in the mid range than the higher end. 

A sealed bearing doesn't make a quality bearing... and be careful how you say this.. because our Hawks don't have but 2 bearings that are sealed and those are the to visible ones in the connecting arm that connects the lower arm to the motor... the rest are open thrust bearings.. I know this because i just replace them on my 226 Ultra and also just tonight had my old 220VS apart.. 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

10 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

A sealed bearing doesn't make a quality bearing... and be careful how you say this.. because our Hawks don't have but 2 bearings that are sealed and those are the to visible ones in the connecting arm that connects the lower arm to the motor... the rest are open thrust bearings.. I know this because i just replace them on my 226 Ultra and also just tonight had my old 220VS apart.. 

I just was making a point about the Zerk fitting on those bearings. That was brought up.  Bearings are a huge problem on lathes as I mentioned and most forums I go to the answers are to buy a better quality bearing and a site is usually given rather than getting same ones from the lathe company you bought. 

[lawson56]

Well I like everything you said.I have used 3 brand of saws,in the 18 yrs Ive been cutting,all entry level,and the one complaint Table not Big enough.It's always a standard size table.I would like to see a BIG square table.

[Rolf]

One thing with those arm bearings in the hawk their range of motion is very small so the wear is in the exact same place all of the time. Kevin did you get them from Hawk?

[hotshot]

9 hours ago, lawson56 said:

all entry level,

Lawson, what is your primary saw right now?  I"m about 100 miles from you, but have a Hegner 14" that I would give you.  If you are ever over this way, might be fun for you to play with.  It is single speed, and to keep vibration under control, you really need to run it on concrete or something really solid.  Though Hegner should really be embarrassed by this version as the single speed sucks, having easy access to that bottom blade is great, which is why I would use it over a Ryobi.  Like many old Hegners, the blower baffle dry rotted, so needs to be replaced if you need a blower, but the saw itself works.

Edited January 21, 2018 by hotshot

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, Rolf said:

One thing with those arm bearings in the hawk their range of motion is very small so the wear is in the exact same place all of the time. Kevin did you get them from Hawk?

No, I bought local at Edwards Industrial.. My family does a lot of business with this company and know us from the Sawmill business..always there getting hydro hoses, bearings or something, LOL