Proper STAINING of Fretwork like this

[Sam777]

Hi Ladies & Gentlemen,

Sorry I have been following most of what is happening on this great forum but honestly have not had any time to participate in the conversations

Now I need some finishing advice on this.

I made this for a friend. This is a Steve Good pattern except I added the name of the recipient in the middle section.

I am not sure whether to glue the pieces together first and then stain OR the other way around. I am afraid if I glue first, the stain would NOT take on the corners where the glue would be (I had a bad experience with that). But I stain first, then the glue would not stick as well to the wood.

Please, use your experience and throw some advice my way.

I would really appreciate it.

Sam

Edited January 27, 2018 by Sam777
To Clarify Question

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Whenever a project is basic wood I would always glue and then dip in Watco Danish oil. Color of choice. No blotching. Use only as much glue as needed and if need be mask off areas you do not want glue to go. If those are thru tenons make sure you do not get glue on the tails as you push into slots because the glue will be absorbed in the open grain and you will never recover from it. Tough to see how that piece all goes together but suggest you layout a strategy before gluing. If you are dipping make sure glue is dried and cured which could be 24 hours at least. Wood to wood nothing better than carpenters glue. I like TitebondII 

[Dan]

You should be able to stain then glue. The stain, once dried according to directions, shouldn't affect the gluing. Any finish should be applied after gluing. 

[Sam777]

38 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Whenever a project is basic wood I would always glue and then dip in Watco Danish oil. Color of choice. No blotching. Use only as much glue as needed and if need be mask off areas you do not want glue to go. If those are thru tenons make sure you do not get glue on the tails as you push into slots because the glue will be absorbed in the open grain and you will never recover from it. Tough to see how that piece all goes together but suggest you layout a strategy before gluing. If you are dipping make sure glue is dried and cured which could be 24 hours at least. Wood to wood nothing better than carpenters glue. I like TitebondII 

Thank you JT,

Yes they are thru tenons. Yes I plan on dipping in stain which will not be easy after it is assembled.

Thanks

Sam

[Sam777]

20 minutes ago, Dan said:

You should be able to stain then glue. The stain, once dried according to directions, shouldn't affect the gluing. Any finish should be applied after gluing. 

Thank you Dan,

I appreciate the advice.

Sam

[WayneMahler]

You can also leave it assembled as is then stain it. Once stain you can take it apart wait for the stain to dry the glue it together and apply your top coat. I do this with some of the furniture I build, keeps the glue joints clean and no glue residue to interfere with the stain. Just a thought. Just make sure your assembly is tight when you stain it.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Dipping is very easy to do. I do it all the time and I make 6 foot shelves and mirrors that are 36" in diameter. Just need a good size container and you do not have to submerge the entire piece. Use a throw away brush to flood the piece as you keep it in the container. I buy those 50 cent brushes from Home Depot and when done throw them away. I use many size containers. I like the storage containers that many stores offer such as wallyworld and Home Depot and Lowes. Your problem is if using a quart container of stain. i use gallons of Danish oil and when done just pour it back in the cans using a funnel. Have been doing this for over 35 years and works well. Danish oil has some Polyurethane in it so it also seals the wood and leaves a nice finish. I sand all my projects to 220 grit to me is the perfect grit for finishing. I wipe the container out with acetone and are ready for next project. Not telling you what to do or how to do things, just it is what I do and if something in there helps good luck. I do not agree with glue sticking as well when stained as opposed to unstained. Glue locks in the grain of the wood to make stronger. If you stain you seal the grain and now you rely on the glue sticking to a flat surface. Again just my opinion. 

One thing once again safety is key as with anything in a shop. When using oil based stains do not leave rags in a pile they can combust. Air dry and then throw away. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[Sam777]

36 minutes ago, WayneMahler said:

You can also leave it assembled as is then stain it. Once stain you can take it apart wait for the stain to dry the glue it together and apply your top coat. I do this with some of the furniture I build, keeps the glue joints clean and no glue residue to interfere with the stain. Just a thought. Just make sure your assembly is tight when you stain it.

Wayne,

your way is a great idea. lIke you said I should keep the joints tight so as to get as little or no stain where the glue would go.

Thank you for the hints

Sam

[Sam777]

34 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Dipping is very easy to do. I do it all the time and I make 6 foot shelves and mirrors that are 36" in diameter. Just need a good size container and you do not have to submerge the entire piece. Use a throw away brush to flood the piece as you keep it in the container. I buy those 50 cent brushes from Home Depot and when done throw them away. I use many size containers. I like the storage containers that many stores offer such as wallyworld and Home Depot and Lowes. Your problem is if using a quart container of stain. i use gallons of Danish oil and when done just pour it back in the cans using a funnel. Have been doing this for over 35 years and works well. Danish oil has some Polyurethane in it so it also seals the wood and leaves a nice finish. I sand all my projects to 220 grit to me is the perfect grit for finishing. I wipe the container out with acetone and are ready for next project. Not telling you what to do or how to do things, just it is what I do and if something in there helps good luck. I do not agree with glue sticking as well when stained as opposed to unstained. Glue locks in the grain of the wood to make stronger. If you stain you seal the grain and now you rely on the glue sticking to a flat surface. Again just my opinion. 

One thing once again safety is key as with anything in a shop. When using oil based stains do not leave rags in a pile they can combust. Air dry and then throw away. 

JT,

I don't feel that you are telling me what to do. I am soliciting anyones help with this and future projects.

I appreciate that you are taking the time to explain.

You are correct, I use the quart size stain and watco danish oils and will limit the dipping method.

Thanks again for the hints.

Sam

 

[dgman]

Hey Sam, since you mentioned future projects, I'll chime in. For a project like this, I never use Baltic birch plywood, I always use hardwoods. Mahogany or Walnut would be perfect! I never stain. i bring out the natural beauty of the wood with a 50/50 mixture of boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. Then a top coat of a spray on lacquer. 

[ScollSaw Slasher]

I wood have to agree with Dan for future projects. Yes, the cost factor increases dramatically, but I personally stay away from Baltic Birch ply for a project such as this. I only use plywood as a backer or eventually a painted surface from intricate scroll saw work to cabinetry. No matter what one does, that cut visible edge of ply  shows, and nine times out of ten, it's ugly and ruins the project to my eyes.

[Gonzo]

I agree with Dgman and Slasher.  None the less, it is a very nice project. 

[Sam777]

9 hours ago, dgman said:

Hey Sam, since you mentioned future projects, I'll chime in. For a project like this, I never use Baltic birch plywood, I always use hardwoods. Mahogany or Walnut would be perfect! I never stain. i bring out the natural beauty of the wood with a 50/50 mixture of boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. Then a top coat of a spray on lacquer. 

 

3 hours ago, ScollSaw Slasher said:

I wood have to agree with Dan for future projects. Yes, the cost factor increases dramatically, but I personally stay away from Baltic Birch ply for a project such as this. I only use plywood as a backer or eventually a painted surface from intricate scroll saw work to cabinetry. No matter what one does, that cut visible edge of ply  shows, and nine times out of ten, it's ugly and ruins the project to my eyes.

 

18 minutes ago, Gonzo said:

I agree with Dgman and Slasher.  None the less, it is a very nice project. 

I agree with you on the un-attractive edges of BB, But how do you get a hardwood with this kind of width (around 7" wide X 1/4" thick)? This is why I don't think twice about BB for this type. 

I appreciate the advice BUT since I already done the project in BB, what is your take on staining and top coating?

[Gonzo]

I haven't had much luck staining BB. It gets blotchy. I would say that almost all of my BB projects are finished with a spray shellac. Very light coats. 

As for 1/4" thick hardwood, I recently purchased a spacer for my bandsaw.  I purchase 3/4" hardwood and re-saw the lumber. Then plane it to size. Time consuming? Heck yeah, but I"m not in any hurry. Plus, I save a lot of money. ( I purchased a 9 1/2" x 7/8" x 8' piece of walnut for $60.00. I cut off a 2' piece and re-sawed that piece in half, resulting in two pieces 5/16 thick and ready to be planed. That right there would probably cost close to $60.00. )

[Sam777]

So eventually, if I want to go that way with future project, I would need to purchase a band saw and a thickness planer. I would love to do that but since I am not making any money on these projects, I will have to live with what I have. Home depot and Lowes in my area carry 1/4"  X 6" X 36" Poplar and Oak for $12 each. If I want to with hardwood I would  get these for now :(

Thanks for the reply

Sam

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Sam there is a person who does scroll work that goes to one of my craft shows and all he uses is Baltic Birch. He does not stain his work and just coats with a satin poly. What that does is seals the wood but also prevents smudging from fingerprints. I like the look because his work is one color and he makes lots of different projects from puzzles to crosses, to nativity sets  and things like you show. He does well selling so there is a market for BB projects. The question is the staining. Have you stained BB projects before and if so how well did they come out?? There was another topic here recently talking about staining plywoods. May want to read that. Some people use BB and paint the project so there are options. What I would do is take some scrap pieces and stain them and see if you like the look before you commit. 

I too have a shop full of tools and can work woods to any dimensions and yes it takes $$$ to acquire these tools and also room to store them is always a problem. But there are options to use hardwoods also. Many different vendors out there that sell thinner woods in all sizes and many different varieties. If there is a hardwood lumber dealer near you they maybe able to dimension the wood for you. Will caution you though when using solid woods such as hardwoods they will have a tendency to warp. BB is far more stable in that area but if worked well hardwoods can be used just as easily. Most times the pieces are small so warping does not come into play. Good luck. Play around some and experiment. Learn from your process. That is how we all do it. After working in my shop for well over 40 years I am still learning things every day. 

[Bill WIlson]

While resawing and planing your own lumber is the most efficient way to make wide panels, I understand that the cost to acquire the equipment can be prohibitive.  Another suggestion; Buy narrower boards of the desired thickness and edge glue them together.  If you are careful to align the edges and select boards with similar grain patterns, with a little sanding, you can do a passable job of making your wide panels.  I encourage you to give it a try.  Like others, I prefer the look of solid hardwood for projects such as yours (nice job, by the way).  If you don't have a local hard wood supplier, then there are also on-line suppliers of hardwood that may offer you more options.  I don't know how they may compare with Lowes & HD in price, but may be worth a look.

[tomsteve]

1 hour ago, Sam777 said:

 

 

I agree with you on the un-attractive edges of BB, But how do you get a hardwood with this kind of width (around 7" wide X 1/4" thick)? This is why I don't think twice about BB for this type. 

I appreciate the advice BUT since I already done the project in BB, what is your take on staining and top coating?

finished properly, even the BB will look very nice. the edges can look like a nice laminated piece.i highly suggest using a pre stain conditioner on the wood. BB has a tendency to blotch. personally what i would do, if using an oil based stain, is take my spray bottle of mineral spirits and spray the pieces down good. wipe off any excess, then stain. the mineral spirits/ pre conditioner helps the stain to soak in evenly and creates a consistant finish.

for topcoat, thats wide open. personally what i would do on this piece is use a satin poly in a rattle can. my first objective would be to try and get all the inner cuts with a light coat on them- it shouldnt be hard since the piece will already be stained,so the poly wouldnt soak in greatly. holding the can at a distance, start spraying at different angles- basically mist coats while im attempting to get the finish in the internal cuts. id start at angling the can ( like at a 45 degree or so) to the surface and spray in one direction on all sides. mist coat it, let it dry for a bit. then do the same but now with the can at a different angle and different direction. just think aboout how to get all the surfaces of the interior cuts, yet knowing i may not get them entirely.then after im satified a couple coats on the exterior surfaces.

but the easiest, practically fail proof finish would be an oil as JT mentioned. danish oil or linseed oil are both great options.i use BLO a lot myself of ornaments and fretwork with lots of veins.  it seems this is a piece that isnt going to get a lot of use/abuse so a durable finish may not be necessary.

and with the two finishes i mention, if at any time in the future a repair on the finish may be necessary, its very easy to do.

as far as 7" wide 1/4" thick stock, there are online stores that sell it. ocooch hardwoods has varying species of wood that can be purchased at different thicknesses.http://ocoochhardwoods.com/scroll_saw_lumber.php

the big box stores in your area may carry 1/4" thick stock of some speicies. im not sure about 7" wide- i see 6" wide(5 1/2 actual) locally, but it is possible to edge glue some pieces up to make it, which is something i prefer to do on some work.

 

one more note:

for glueing after staining, you could also use a medium CA glue. i find it works real good and creates a strong bond when clamped properly. 

hoping we get to see the finished piece as the scrollwork is outstanding!

[Scrappile]

I can not give finishing advice, I know little about it.  Glad you asked because I have learned from the responses you received.  That is a very nice cutting you did.  Please post another picture after you finish it. 

[tomsteve]

1 hour ago, Sam777 said:

So eventually, if I want to go that way with future project, I would need to purchase a band saw and a thickness planer. I would love to do that but since I am not making any money on these projects, I will have to live with what I have. 

welp, you could get up to 6" wide resaw if you have a 10" table saw. then do glue ups. i buy a lot of 3/4" thick stock, rip it down the middle, and plane it to 1/4".

personally, i prefer glue up when im getting above 6" wide. unless i have quartersawn.

[Sam777]

Here are a couple of projects I stained. These are not glued yet but I have given quiet a few of these Napkin Holders with Initials as gifts and they came out great.

I found out that the best stain on BB is Brand Varethane Red Mahogany and I have not used any prestain conditioner. I have been dipping the pieces before assembling them.

What do you think. Some of my edges could use a some touching but I already sprayed these with Shellac.

Thank you for listening

Sam

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

There you go you answered your own question about staining. As I mentioned I like to glue before staining but your way will work also. Good luck and love the work. Thanks for showing. 

[Sam777]

I will show the final finish of the Fret Tote.

Thank you all

Sam

[amazingkevin]

19 hours ago, Sam777 said:

Hi Ladies & Gentlemen,

Sorry I have been following most of what is happening on this great forum but honestly have not had any time to participate in the conversations

Now I need some finishing advice on this.

I made this for a friend. This is a Steve Good pattern except I added the name of the recipient in the middle section.

I am not sure whether to glue the pieces together first and then stain OR the other way around. I am afraid if I glue first, the stain would NOT take on the corners where the glue would be (I had a bad experience with that). But I stain first, then the glue would not stick as well to the wood.

Please, use your experience and throw some advice my way.

I would really appreciate it.

Sam

Your post brought out all the great info we all needed,Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sam777]

Thank you all

Sam