Used Excalibur, Hegner, Hawk Opinions

[kap279]

Hello all,

I started looking into scroll sawing recently and have been searching various online communities for answers, tips, etc.  Well, I'm looking to purchase a scroll saw and have narrowed it down to some options in my area.  I can purchase the Excalibur 21 new from Home Depot for $800 with stand and foot pedal, the King Industrial 30 from Woodcraft for $900 (no stand), or I've located a couple of used options.  The first is a one year old barely used Excalibur 21 with stand and foot pedal for $580, the second is a used RBI Hawk 226 VS Precision Scroll Saw with stand (not sure about foot pedal) for $600 - not sure of the age, and the third is a ten year old or so 18" Hegner Scroll Saw for $240.  I've eliminated the Seyco due to some reviews/first impressions I've read on these chatrooms and I've eliminated the Dewalt because I figure for close to the same price I can get saws that seem to be considered higher quality.

My first choice is the Excalibur, but I'm concerned about replacement parts.  I spoke with someone at a local woodworkers store and the salesperson said what others have.  The factory that manufactured the saws no longer does so for Excalibur.  They've gotten a new factory but are still waiting for the saws to arrive.  They're not sure if the saws will be the exact same, use the same parts, etc.  I was told that the first run of a new product is generally where the problems will be found and have to be worked out (seems legitimate due to some of the things I've read about the Seyco's).  If I knew replacement parts weren't an issue I think this would be a no brainer.

I think the Hawk would be my second choice.  Made in the USA is always a benefit.  I've read these saws are a slower cutting saw (not sure if I would ever notice the difference because I haven't really used others).  The price seems pretty good on the used model.

The Hegner is 10 years old which doesn't seem like a big deal from what I've read.  It seems the design has changed minimally.  My concern is that I've read about blades breaking on these and I know little about them.  My other concern is just the overall appearance of the machine.  It seem that when new these machines are the most expensive, but they also look the most dated - this may not matter, but it seems when machines look a little more cutting edge they are.  Maybe when machines look nicer there are more problems with them, I don't know.  $240 for this saw seems like the best price by far but not sure what the 10 year age means.

The King Industrial is the same as the Excalibur from what I can tell, but I've heard about it being from a Canadian company - similar to a Harbor Freight - and that concerns me with getting replacement parts as well.  Woodcraft sells it, but I'm not sure how helpful they would be with this saw.

Anyway, just looking for some insight as I'm looking to purchase one of these soon.  Any help is appreciated - Thank you!

[new2woodwrk]

Parked and reading...

[Brianr24]

I would grab that EX 21 for 580.00 if it’s really barely used.

[Scrappile]

You can get replacement parts for the Ex. from Seyco.com.  I had an Ex and loved it,  not going into a long story but I sold it, was eyeing a second used Hegner, but didn't get it, so Ex were not on the market at the time, I purchased a Seyco.  Seyco is a good saw, there are a couple things I liked a little better on the Ex.  The only reason I would hesitate to encourage the Hegner (my favorite saw, by the way) is if your are a beginner, the Ex is an easier saw to learn on and to use.  For one thing you have the option of top or bottom feed.  You would be able to decide which you like best for the type of scrolling you want to do. Hegner is bottom feed only.  Hegner tensioning is also a little more critical than on other saws.  Something you get a feel for over time, but there is a bigger leaning curve.   The Hegner will be around longer than any other saw you would buy.  But, used you do not know how abused it has been.  But Hegner is a great machine.  If I could only have one saw, it would be Hegner for me.

Of the ones you mentioned, personally I would go for the Ex and feel very thankful that i got to start out on one of the better machines.

I can't really speak to the King, never even had a look at one, but parts and repairs for it I think would be the same as the Ex.  Seyco would be your best source.   

Oh, the Hawk depending on the age may be bottom feed only and maybe some other minor deficits, I do not have any experience with them.   I want one, someday, you can't have too many scroll saws.

[kmmcrafts]

I don't know what your location is.. or your budget but if you are close to where member Iggy is.. sounds like he is going to be selling a very lightly used Hawk BM26.. They are awesome saws for precision work.. Just a thought. he just posted tonight he was selling it.. 

[Gonzo]

Not sure if what the table top looks like is a barometer of how used the saw is or not, but in my opinion I think it is.  I have two Ex-21's, one in the basement for when it's cold and one in the garage for when it's nice (3 months out of the year, big smile). I've had a Dremel and DeWalt scrollsaws and the EX by far is a great machine. Haven't had the opportunity to use the Hawk or Hegner

[SCROLLSAW703]

well Sir, you've touched on several things. I don't have any experience with any of the saws you mentioned except Hawk. 

The first decision you have to make is what you're goin' to take on with your saw. Read reviews til your eyes cross! I've heard good & bad about the Seyco, same with the Ex. The Hegner, ehh, my advice would be, from what I know & have been around them, you better have deep pockets & patience. No offense, but, they are a pricey machine.

I'm a Hawk advocate. I've owned Hawks before I invested in the BM 26 I have now. The cadillac of saws. The Hawk does cut slower than most, but it's designed to cut precision cuts in every project. It has several lower arm settings from directly horizontal to as as aggressive as you prefer. And will cut at your preferred speed. 

[Lucky2]

Kirk, if you buy the EX21, you'll never regret the purchase. I've used different saws over the years, and the EX is the nicest saw I've ever used. They are long lasting, and they will cut pretty much anything. They are very reliable saws, and parts are easy to get if you ever need them. The one you have a chance to purchase is priced at a reasonable price, it's the one I would buy. Len

[OCtoolguy]

I will say, I just purchased a used Hegner and I of course had to take it all apart and check it all out for dirt and lubrication. It has got to be the simplest mechanism of all the saws. There is virtually nothing to go wrong with a Hegner if oiled occasionally. Simplicity is the key word here. I also have a Dewalt and it's mechanism is very similar to the EX, the Seyco, the King and the Excelsior. Many moving parts to maintain and lubricate and keep in tune. Not to disparage any of these saws. They all are great products. The Hawk is too but I don't have any experience with them. Just my two cents worth. I'm not suggesting any of these saws but just wanted to say what I think of there mechanical aspects.

Ray

 

[kap279]

Thank you everyone for your responses - I really appreciate it!  I'm going to go ahead with the used EX-21.  I'm glad I came upon this website and forum as well...I began this journey watching a video of Steve Goode's on youtube regarding the Porter Cable with stand from Lowes for $199.00 and really decided that simpler blade changes were a necessity to get the most joy out of a saw like this and continue to use it.  That led to a deep dive into various brands, user experiences, etc.  It seemed like a lot of people seem to really like the Excalibur and the biggest downfall of it was the production issues. 

My thought is that in the grand scheme of things a higher end scroll saw isn't that large of a price jump up from one to the next and it's easier to convince my wife one time that I need a scroll saw instead of going through a future conversation that the perfectly good scroll saw I bought last year has to be replaced because...  My experience is that it's hard enough to convince her once let alone go through the process again. 

I'm also a part owner of a business where we've purchased tools in the past that have been undersized for our needs and have had to be replaced later on - sometimes it was all we could afford at the time, got us through, and was a good stop gap but other times it was more about saving a dollar or two.  A lot of times it just ends up costing more in the long run.

The Hegner is still a tempting add on buy at the price point just to have around and from all user accounts they seem indestructible.  I think since I'm just getting started with this hobby I will stick to learning the ins and outs of one saw for the time being.

In regards to the location of member Iggy, I am located in Wisconsin (a lot of your locations sound pretty nice right about now weather-wise) so a little far away from him but thank you for the suggestion.

The only additional thing I will add and that did affect my decision a little bit is that many have stated Home Depot has some discounts available that I am not eligible for.  Home Depot does, however, price match (not sure if they meet and beat prices anymore) and they also match competitor coupons.  In my area we have Menards as a direct competitor.  They tend to run 11% off sales at least once a month - often enough that if you buy something at regular price you now feel like you overpaid.  It's not actually 11% off the price of the cost of goods, but rather an in store rebate.  A lot of midwestern Home Depot location will match this 11% and they have an online site for submitting that is as follows:  https://www.homedepotrebates11percent.com/#/home  It takes awhile, but as long as you purchased a product during the time frame of a Menard's 11% sale you will get a gift card mailed to you.  Based on the rebate website it does appear that the purchases need to take place in a store and not online so my grand thought of purchasing a new EX-21 for $799.99 and getting an 11% gift card would probably not work.

Anyway, thank you everyone for the responses - I read and appreciated the insight each of them offered.  Have a great day!

 

 

[tomsteve]

youre going to enjoy the EX,kap. if it doesnt come with one, i highly suggest investing in a footswitch. its much more enjoyable to operate over turing the saw on and off with the switch.

as for replacement parts, theres vary little on the EX that wears. i have hundreds of hours on my EX16( the little brother to the 21) and its still running strong with no problems.its a dc induction motor and should last forever,too.

[meflick]

Congratulations on deciding on the used Excalibur 21.  It should be a great saw. Sounds like you are getting a steal of a deal on it and based on that information, is the one I would have probably gone with in your situation as well.

I did want to clarify/ask a couple of things regarding your concerns with the Seyco saw.  Mainly for the future when people are looking back through old threads considering the purchase of a scroll saw. Steve Good also did a video and review on they Seyco saw last year when it first came out.  Is that where your initial concerns were raised?  His initial issues had to do with getting the saw together. It can be a bit of a pain but with his video and information - it should be easier for the next guy.  I also got one of the original saws and had my hubby put it together. (He's much more technical minded then me and definitely can do the heavy lifting much more then me!  Besides he bought it for me as a gift.Only fair that he put it together.  But I did help.)  He did so before Steve did his video and thus had the same issues that Steve did with putting it together.  Once together, it has been a great saw.  I believe that it is Steve's go to saw from what I have seen on his blog.  I have a couple of choices in our shop now, including an Excalibur and the Seyco is my go to saw for various reasons.  Some don't like the magnetic top - but it doesn't bother me.  I did add the washers that Steve did to raise it up a tad and that has helped with the issue of it sitting low and the "hole" under the middle.  I know several others who have gotten the Seyco saw and been happy with it.  So, I just wanted to add this to let people know that while the initial reviews of a few raised some concerns, they are not issues that should eliminate this saw from consideration.  It is a good saw, on par with my Excalibur.  I had purchased the Excalibur used from Seyco and we bought the Seyco new in the first batch. I had excellent service from Ray at Seyco with both purchases and he was always willing to help/answer questions/concerns. 

[scrollerpete]

I agree with Brian, grab the Ex for that price is a steal

[Rockytime]

Looks like you will be getting a great saw. You mentioned the Hegner and Hawk look somewhat dated. Remember, put lipstick on a pig and it is still a pig.

 

[Scrappile]

Check out the used Ex real well and if all looks and feels good grab it.  I am confident you will not be unhappy.  Reads like you know some about tools and machines, so you will know if it is okay.  Good choice and sounds like it is a good deal.

[kap279]

Once again, thanks to everyone for all the insight.  You definitely made me feel better about going ahead with the EX-21.  I went ahead and picked it up tonight - it was definitely seldomly used.  The previous owner still had the manual, all the paperwork, tags, and even the box it came in.  Also got the two packs of blades they had from their original purchase of the saw (now I need to really research what type of blades to purchase).  

Even though it was definitely not used much it made a few funny noises that had me slightly concerned initially.  The first noise was the lower blade mount hitting the lower blade guard when running at a higher blade speed.  I was able to bend/push the lower blade guard up toward the table and it no longer hit it.  The other noise had me more concerned, but after checking this forum I was able to find the answer in about 30 seconds from a post titled "excalibur 21 blade problems" which linked me to an excalibur tune up section on scrollsaws.com.  I was getting a lot of vibration/noise when running at a high blade speed.  I could get to about 75% speed and the saw would vibrate a lot.  I ended up taking the cover off the scroll saw that was on the back side of the motor, modified an 8mm wrench per the directions, and tightened a screw.  That solved the problem - runs as smooth as can be with no sound now.  Much smoother and quieter than I could have imagined.

meflick:  I really didn't mean to disparage the seyco at all - that wasn't my intention as I'm sure a lot of people really like them.  It seemed as though a lot of people bought them as soon as they came out.  You were correct though -  my concerns were specifically in regards to some of the initial reviews I had read and the review on youtube from Steve Good where I was able to see how some of the parts worked/were designed.  I've never spoken with Ray from Seyco, but from all accounts he seems like the exact sort of person that I would want to purchase a product from and would be a big reason I would purchase a seyco.  The following were my concerns and why (keep in mind these were my concerns only from my research and not actually using the saw).  I just want to give you an idea of what my concerns were as you seemed genuinely curious.   You have real world time with the saw where you can definitely provide some solid knowledge on the two saws.  I know you like the seyco more than the EX but I would be very interested to know what you prefer and why between the saws based on the areas that gave me hesitation.

13 hours ago, meflick said:

Steve Good also did a video and review on they Seyco saw last year when it first came out.  Is that where your initial concerns were raised?

Somewhat.  He really seemed to like the saw in the review I watched so he himself didn't necessarily raise my concerns.  Having not gone back and rewatched it I'll have to go by memory here.  The part of the saw that most disappointed me in the video was the blade tilt controls and the fact that it wouldn't tilt to a 45 degree angle.  Steve did a good job of conveying that the 38 degree tilt was enough and there really wouldn't be many applications where you would need more tilt, but it felt a little like the saw went backward from the previous design (excalibur). I didn't understand why the saw couldn't have been designed in a way that a 45 degree tilt would be possible since it had already been done.  My experience with innovation is that you want to make the next product at least equal in features to the last and preferably more advanced.

I initially thought the digital angle reader was neat, but I didn't like the delay for the numbers to change when tilting the table.  Part of my apprehension with this may be in the fact that I have often used a digital miter finder at work and as close as it is to accurate I can also put it on the same angle and have readings a couple of tenths apart so I'm never 100% confident in the reading.  I'll check an angle multiple times and if they're different readings I will average them to get my angle. 

Another small issue is that at my work we do a lot of metal fabrication at our facility and I know that when metals are welded or bolted together they can have imperfections, crowns, low spots, etc. I don't recall if the Seyco was a cast arm on top or bolted/welded steel, but I just imagined this digital reader sitting on an un-level piece of steel where the readout wouldn't be consistent if it wasn't always set in the exact same location, if there was some weld spatter on the ledge, if some debris got under the reader.  I understand that you have to zero it out when you have the blade level, but if my readout was always +/- .01" it would irritate me.  I would want it at "0" when the blade was level (it may normally be at zero, I just noticed in the video that it was initially a tenth over, he zeroed it out, and it was then a tenth under).  I completely understand that the variance in the readout is very minimal and most likely doesn't matter 99.9% of the time but then I wonder why have it which brings me to the blade tilt controls.

When watching Steve Good explain how he liked the blade tilt controls on the seyco better than the rack & pinion style I didn't have a reference point but I knew that I didn't particularly like the blade tilt controls I saw.  After the video I went and researched the controls on other saws that had the numbers etched in metal where you just turn the knob to tilt the saw.  It just seemed like a more finished product with the rack and pinion and an area where the seyco kind of skimped a little bit.  To me, the free floating head seemed like it would be harder to get to a certain angle and then harder to keep at that angle when tightening the knob.  It probably is a small issue to most but a matter of fit and finish for me.

I did like the crosshair style magnetic pad when watching the video and thought it was a really neat feature.  I was quite disappointed when I later learned through various forums that there was a rectangular slot cut in the table that for some would even become an issue for the magnetic top.  Once again, it seemed like this slot was put there out of necessity where a little more    thought and time could have eliminated the need for the slot completely.  It just seemed counterintuitive that when reading forums and watching videos people were very concerned about the size of the hole the blade goes through in the table as it may catch material and then a giant hole was intentionally placed in the center of a table on a high end saw.  It seemed like the target audience for this saw would be especially particular about this sort of thing.  I had read a few posts about people replacing the table or having a custom machined top put on their seyco due to their disdain for the magnetic top.  I'd read of some who had regret of selling a saw they owned to purchase their seyco and ultimately being somewhat disappointed - maybe it was initial buyers remorse and after using it for awhile they became more accustomed to it and appreciated it more.  Maybe it was like they sold their first car and wished they hadn't - nothing will ever be as nice.

I had read about the issues with the stand but had heard that Steve Good had the assembly video you referenced so that wasn't a huge concern to me.

 

14 hours ago, meflick said:

I know several others who have gotten the Seyco saw and been happy with it.  So, I just wanted to add this to let people know that while the initial reviews of a few raised some concerns, they are not issues that should eliminate this saw from consideration.  It is a good saw, on par with my Excalibur.

This is very good news!  All of the reasons I listed above have absolutely nothing to do with me personally using the seyco scroll saw and in fact the first scroll saw I ever used was my EX tonight.  I am the type of person who researches for a ridiculous amount of time prior to making a purchase like this and to be quite honest I can be a perfectionist to a fault.  The information I got was what I interpreted from Steve Good's initial review and the multitude of forums I read on the subject.  I will say that if I would have found a used seyco for a deal and the EX was full price I wouldn't have hesitated to purchase the seyco because at that point it would have definitely been a great value for me.  I understand that what I wrote above may seem overly critical, but this is coming from a person who has never gotten into this hobby before, started researching, and then came to a conclusion based on forums, videos, product websites, features, marketing, etc.  I hope this isn't viewed as a newbie who thinks he knows it all or that I'm bashing a particular brand as that is the last thing I want to do - these were all first glance items of interest to me that led me to research other brands.  I am positive that the Seyco saw is a fantastic cutting saw which would definitely be of the number one concern.

 I maybe shouldn't have included the remark about seyco in my initial post - I didn't even think of it as a negative on the overall product itself, but moreso on the specific concerns with the stand, table, magnetic top feedback I'd read.  I had debated on how to reply to you as I didn't want to come off as overly negative about the seyco but I really wanted to let you know what helped me form my thought process.  I'm excited to hear your thoughts on the saw in regards to the concerns I had and I would definitely defer to you on the seyco vs excalibur as you own and use both of them.  You know the ins and outs a lot more than I do!

[scrollerpete]

My recommendation for blades are Flying Dutchman UR  and the Pegas blades

[rdatelle]

I mpaid $800.00 for my Ex 21 and glad I did. I love it. You can't go wrong and if you can get the same thing for $550.0, go fo it. I also have a 788 which I never use now that I have the Ex21.

[meflick]

Hi Kirk and thanks for taking the time to type out such a detailed explanation.  I'm sorry if you were worried that you hurt my feelings or mistook my inquiry and statements on the Seyco saw as me thinking that you were disparaging the Seyco saw.  You did not hurt my feelings  and I did not think you were disparaging the saw. I also realized that you had not used the saw and were simply expressing some concerns about it after seeing some of the initial reviews and information that were out last year when the saw was initially being received by the first purchasers. I understood that.  My primary purpose was to make note for you, and more importantly, others doing research on saws later who might find this thread - that some of the initial issues/concerns with the Seyco saw had been remedied or "fixed"  or were not issues once people got used to the saw   I asked for you to clarify/provide more details on where you got the information that you were concerned with on the Seyco saw so you would do exactly what you did - provide some more details and information so we could understand your worries with the saw - and maybe address them if possible - again so that when someone is researching -they have good information.  I think that helps people looking to buy a saw (or anything) if they have the best and full information to make a decision with.  For example, one of the issues that someone had about the saw stand - only applied if you were not using the full stand you could get and were trying to use the short legs and put on your own work stand.  I didn't have that issue as we got the saw with the full stand. If I knew that was one of your concerns, I could point that out and note that Seyco fixed that concern for those who didn't want the full stand.  What is a concern or worry for one person, may or may not be for another person. That's why I think its great for us to "share" our thought processes/considerations/concerns in detail so people can see what we considered important or not and others who may know, can more fully address concerns. That way, people get more of a "full picture" when doing research.  Everyone doesn't do "complete detailed research" sometimes.  They simply read one post somewhere that says I didn't like XXX without saying why and the next person says ok XXX is out for me.  Sometimes, the information may not be completely accurate either. Thus, why I simply was trying to point out that some of the initial concerns/problems were addressed and were no longer an issue with the saw. For example, if you only saw Steve Good's initial video and statements on the saw, you would have a more negative impression of it then if you saw that but then also saw his followup posts on the saw. So I was simply wanting to make sure that that info. was out there for the next person who was doing their own research. Also, please don't think that I think the Seyco is a superior saw to my Excalibur - as you will note in the last statement you quoted,  I said I consider my Seyco saw and my Excalibur to be on par. Both good saws. So I think you will be very happy with the Excalibur.

Now, as I noted before - my husband bought me the Seyco last year when it first came out as a combined Mother's Day/Birthday gift (as they fall usually within a week of each other).  He has trouble buying gifts for me as I am not the typical gal who wants jewels, shoes, clothes, etc.  I am a techy, tool gal.  So, he unknowingly to me, saw the reviews on the saws in the SWWC magazine and put in an order for the Seyco.  That is the only reason I got the Seyco.  As a relative newbie myself, I was more than happy with my Excalibur.  While I was "intrigued" with the new says (the techy, tool gal) I had decided to wait and see on saws (had he asked me ).  However, since Hubby was so kind to buy it for me - I felt that I needed to make the effort to use it over my other saw.  It was because I made myself use it, that I got used to it and felt that it was on par with my Excalibur.  Like anything - I think many of us have a "favorite" because that is what we get used to.  Initially, I wasn't sure I liked the Seyco, but the more I used it the more comfortable with it I became. I think Paul @Scrappile was the person who has posted that he had sold his Excalibur and gotten the Seyco and missed his Excalibur.  However, since posting that - he has also said that he is happy with the Seyco saw.

I haven't done much to need to cut on an angle yet. The one time I tried, I did it with the DeWalt we have and on it the table tilts rather then the head.  I didn't like that.  Since then I have yet to try on anything else.  I do want to do some inlay, but that requires minimum tilt. Since I also still have my Excalibur,  the slightly less angle tilt on the Seyco would not be as much of a concern for me since I could always go over to the Excalibur if I needed to go beyond what the Seyco would do. Plus, my thought was that I think its very difficult to "dial in" and lock in the tilt on those "little marks" versus using the angle reader that the Seyco has. So to me, that was a plus for the Seyco.  However, since I have yet to use it on either I cannot personally address that I like one way over the other.  I will say however, that I have branched out and tried many different things thanks to the great folks on this forum.  For example, I did my first compound cuts just before Christmas. 

I admit, I'm not all that "mechanically inclined" - I just want my equipment to work.  Including my saws.  If I have a mechanical issue, or question I call in the hubby.  So some of the intricacies on the hows and whys on the different saws don't matter to me like they do to some of the folks on here. So, my primary purpose was simply to make sure that those doing research later have the "details" on the saw to help them make their own informed decisions. 

I look forward to hearing more about your adventures with your Excalibur.  I am sure you will love it and the folks here and hopefully be inspired by all they share.