RBI vs Hegner and are they worth the upgrade?

[Gonzo]

Here's my story.  Four years ago, I started with a Dremel Scrollsaw. Upgraded to a DeWalt, then upgraded from that to the EX-21.  I've done some intarsia, dabbled a little in in-lay, but find myself going back to fret work. My projects seem to get more and more intricate.  The difference from saw to saw to saw was huge and my enjoyment went up exponentially with each saw. Scrolling is my way of escaping from the real world, so I'm not in any hurry. (Yeah right, (big smile))

From everything I've read, the RBI and the Hegner are the Cadillacs of scroll saws. 

Here are my questions:

To  those of you who own the RBI or Hegner, is there that much of an "improvement" over the EX?

 What made you choose RBI over Hegner and visa versa?

And last but not least, was the upgrade worth it? 

Thank you, and I look forward to your opinions. 

[Sycamore67]

I have a Hegner and think it is great for Intarsia.  I do not do fret work. If I did, I would probably not choose the Hegner as it is more difficult to feed a blade.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Sycamore67

[Oldmansbike]

I have a RBI 26 Ultra and I do a lot of fretwork and sign making. I think it is great for fretwork because of the ease of blade changes  and setting the tension. I have never used the other saws so I can't comment on them.

[Scrappile]

I can not speak for RBI, I have never sat at one.  I do have a Hegner.  I also have a Seyco.  It took me some time to get along with the Hegner after I purchased it.  I mean several months before I was really comfortable with it, as I was with my previous Excalibur and now my Seyco.   The tensioning is very important.  Not set right you break blades... often.  That said, I am totally "at peace" with my Heg now and it is my "go to, and if I could only have one saw" saw.   Will it so things the Ex wouldn't, no, does it cut better, ,, no.  It will be around after the Ex/Seyco is dead and buried, I think, but I won't be around long enough to bury my Seyco either.... I just like the Hegner, it runs great, quieter than the Ex/Seyco even, and I worry not about stripping the threads on the clamps or spreading the clamps from aluminum fatigue.  I put a few drops of oil on the bushing occasionally and scroll on.  If something does break, I know I can repair it, although the parts are very expensive.  

Now none of this will probably help you in a decision, and I really don't want to.  Saws are a personal preference IMHO, and what I like other may fine not so wonderful. 

 

[hotshot]

Here is my raw opinion:  Hawk and Hegner are not the Cadillacs of scroll saws.  I would say they are the John Deere of scroll saws.  None of these saws are outright better than the rest.  Different project types might give one an advantage over the other.

Hawk/Hegner defiantly have the lead in Durability.  There is just less mechanical things going on.  Very simple designs.

if you feel the need to cut fast, that goes to the EX.  I don't like the way Hawk slants the blade to increase "agression", and Hegner doesn't have an adjustment for agression at all.

If you are going to be cutting thick boxes, Hawk can cut projects that can not be cut on any other of these saws.

If you are not a fiddler (you don't want to figure out how to adjust the saw to get it to cut right), Hegner is locked into alignment, and there are almost no adjustment.  You can adjust blade stroke length on the Hegner, but it is a binary adjustment, meaning, it is either set, or not, you don't have to fiddle with it.

If you don't want any aggression at all, I would say Hegner/Hawk, though a tuned Ex is pretty good.  When using spirals and moving sideways, you don't want blade travel widening your kerf.

For fretwork, or frequent blade changes, for me at least, EX stands well above the rest.  As an EX user, you well know, those processes are trivial.  With practice, they are manageable on the other saws, but they are not as easy.  If you switch to one of the other saws, folks will say "be patient, there is an adjustment period", and I'll be telling you that too, but there is a reason for that adjustment period that was beyond what you had when you went to the EX.

If you want a big table, that goes to EX, then Hawk.

Top feed goes to EX, and then Hawk

For smoothness, evidently different folks have a different perspective on this.  The current Hawk has some heavy vibration at certain speeds of which the vendor call this a harmonic point.  Hegner is also moving a lot of mass along those long arms.  On a non-concrete floor, for me at least, the EX was much smoother than the Hegner.  On solid concrete, the Hegner smoothed out for me.

Very few people use the very small blades, but the mechanics on the EX style of saws put less stress on the blades as the top arms are independently powered.  This really only affect a very very small number of people, but it does affect me, so for coin cutting, I've removed my recommendation for any saw except the EX style saws.

Is there something about the EX that you don't like, or are you thinking you are missing out on some greater capability because of the reputation of these other saws?  If you are second guessing you EX because you think you are missing the holy grail,  you really really really need to test drive these other saws before you pull that trigger, or look for a really good deal so you can play with it.  I see really good Hegners at great prices on Craigslist often.  There just isn't that much difference between an old and new Hegner, so I would always buy used.  There are not a great number Hawk BM users, and hardly any G4 saws that come on the market, so a used saw of that Brand  will be a tougher find.  Unless you are wealthy, I would never buy a new Hegner, and would hesitate to buy a new Hawk.

My big hesitation on the EX style saws is the support model.  It is not real obvious where you will take your EX/King/Excelsior saws to be fixed.  This gives and advantage to the Seyco in that line of saws.  The new Pegas clamps make the Jet viable for me, and I have to believe the Jet support should be sound.

------Randy

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by hotshot

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I was going to reply here but Randy summed it up well and saved me alot of typing. I do own a Hegner, 2 Rbis and a Dewalt and my go to saws are always the RBI saws. All very good saws.To me the RBI is the easiest to use and built like a tank. 

[tonylumps]

I have the Hegner  18” and the EX 16 and use both saws The hegner Is a quiet smooth saw that is as bullet proof and as simple as you could get .Blade changes take a little getting used to in the beginning .But now I could do it blind folded.The EX with a few miner tweaks out of the box is a plug and go as you know.Bought both used in very good condition.I cut a lot of 3/4 Hardwood The Hegner is my go to for that I like the Idea of 2 saws If you are looking for a second saw .A good used Hegner is the way to go .It would be like buying new .They have not changed in 30 years.If you find one check with Our Hegner owners before you buy.

[Scrappile]

I think the only thing better than having two saws would be to have three!  If I ever come across a RBI that is a great buy, I will own it!  Then I like to have at least 3 drill presses each with a different size bit in it.....  than, I hate changing blades on a band saw,  maybe several of those also....You just cannot have too many tools....

[OCtoolguy]

6 minutes ago, Scrappile said:

I think the only thing better than having two saws would be to have three!  If I ever come across a RBI that is a great buy, I will own it!  Then I like to have at least 3 drill presses each with a different size bit in it.....  than, I hate changing blades on a band saw,  maybe several of those also....You just cannot have too many tools....

How many wives do you have Paul? Just askin............

Ray

 

[Scrappile]

That is a case where one may be too many!!!! Just kidding, just kidding....

Edited February 4, 2018 by Scrappile

[OCtoolguy]

11 minutes ago, Scrappile said:

The is a case where one may be too many!!!! Just kidding, just kidding....

Yeah, I guess that's a question better left unanswered. 

R

 

[Sycamore67]

Oh No....another what saw is better than the others.  Some saws are built to last longer and have parts available.  While there are some who feel a Hegner is not a Cadillac, that is OK  because I have never owned a Cadillac and my Chevy got me everywhere.

What saw is best depends on what you are doing.  Are you doing fret work, Intarsia or something with very small blades. Are you doing production work to sell stuff.  My Hegner was bought used and is + 20 years old.  Parts are still available IF I would need them. How many of the others will do that and still have parts.

[kmmcrafts]

I think Randy said everything I would say.. but in a better way  .. I like all the saws I have for various reasons..Really liking my Hawk now that I have the new bearings and done some other tweaking.. 

What Paul said too.. I do have both my Hawks set next to each other.. I run a #3 blade in one saw and a #5 in the other  

I don't have enough time on the Excalibur to give any kind of opinion on it yet.. initial impression is.. seems like a real nice saw.. one complaint I do have is just silly.. but both my Hawks and my Dewalt ( with the easy lift ) upper arm pretty much goes up on their own.. and the EX doesn't.. some of that is really just a learning curve that I need to get used to which I will do if I ever actually use the saw, LOL..  I've been toying the idea of either selling the EX or the older Hawk.. Think I rather sell the older Hawk.. getting too many saws.. lucky for me is all of them I could offer at a good price and still make some change off them.. and I need to make room for a Hegner... My next saw I want to play with and try, LOL 

 

[OCtoolguy]

Ok, let's take this question one step further. I have a Dewalt that I have rebuilt and lubed and tweaked to the point where it is very nice to use. It uses pretty much the same design mechanism as the Ex, the Excelsior, and the Seyco. What would be the main reason for spending all that money on any of the higher priced saws over a Dewalt? I'm not trying to start a "my saw is better than your saw" squabble" here. I just honestly am trying to figure out the answer. Since I haven't used any of the high dollar saws, please all you owners of such saws, enlighten me. I am honestly trying to understand. I know there has to be a good reason to part with all that money.

Ray

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by octoolguy

[Rockytime]

I could probably rebuild any saw but only if time were available and money was not. On the other hand it's a cup of tea for some folks who love to do that. I used to love making things work. At my age that which was once a challenge and interesting is now work. Sigh, I'm tired. I just want it to work.

[hotshot]

2 hours ago, octoolguy said:

.....What would be the main reason for spending all that money on any of the higher priced saws over a Dewalt? ....

If you are happy with the 788, then the answer for you may be that there isn't any compelling reason to move up to the EX saws.  The Ex does have some nice features, but you may or may not benefit from them, depending on your project types and how you use your saw.  You can always wear that saw out, then look at what saws are available at the time and see where your money would be best spent.

------Randy

Edited February 4, 2018 by hotshot

[Jim Finn]

The main plus on Hegners is that it will last forever.  I killed a new Dewalt in under two years.  I worked it too hard. If I did fretwork I would consider a different saw than a Hegner but I do not do fretwork.

[OCtoolguy]

4 hours ago, hotshot said:

If you are happy with the 788, then the answer for you may be that there isn't any compelling reason to move up to the EX saws.  The Ex does have some nice features, but you may or may not benefit from them, depending on your project types and how you use your saw.  You can always wear that saw out, then look at what saws are available at the time and see where your money would be best spent.

------Randy

Thanks Randy. Mainly what I was trying to find out is what is the main difference between all these saws since they pretty much all use the same type of mechanism. I realize that there might be quality differences so that is part of my question. I also realize that my Dewalt does have some vibration at high speed but so does my Hegner. Although I can get rid of most of the vibration on the Hegner by really holding it down firmly to the floor. I was just wondering why there is such a price difference between the Dewalt and the other saws. Just me being me. If I'm going to ask my wife to let me spend a ton of money on the top line saw, I have to be able to justify the cost. Thanks.

Ray

 

[kmmcrafts]

6 hours ago, octoolguy said:

Thanks Randy. Mainly what I was trying to find out is what is the main difference between all these saws since they pretty much all use the same type of mechanism. I realize that there might be quality differences so that is part of my question. I also realize that my Dewalt does have some vibration at high speed but so does my Hegner. Although I can get rid of most of the vibration on the Hegner by really holding it down firmly to the floor. I was just wondering why there is such a price difference between the Dewalt and the other saws. Just me being me. If I'm going to ask my wife to let me spend a ton of money on the top line saw, I have to be able to justify the cost. Thanks.

Ray

 

To me they seem like the same saw... just by appearance etc.. But if one does angle cutting.. being able to tilt the head rather than the table IMO is well worth the extra money.. That said.. I've only cut on a angle about 4 times in 12 years of cutting..

Second big difference is.. you can adjust the blade aggression on these... which in many cases either makes the saw work for you or doesn't.. I've see post after post about folks buying a DeWalt and they can't use it because it's too aggressive so in that case they wasted the money ( cost of the DeWalt) because they got a saw they are not able to cut on.. 

So in a nutshell... yeah in my opinion.. the EX types saws are a better value for the money.. also.. for me personally... 98% of everything I cut could be done on a 16" saw... so now we're not talking about a huge amount of money difference... that added 2% of items I could do without cutting.. not big sellers for me and I personally do not like cutting large items anyway...

 

[Gonzo]

Thank you all very much for your opinions.  It is very much appreciated. 

 

[Scrappile]

I really think you are asking a unanswerable question.   What makes it worth it to me may mean nothing to you, and vice versa. 

[hotshot]

8 hours ago, octoolguy said:

.... Mainly what I was trying to find out is what is the main difference between all these saws since they pretty much all use the same type of mechanism. I realize that there might be quality differences so that is part of my question. .....

Ray

 

It's hard to prove that the EX saws are more durable, though from the reports we hear back on the forums, it sure seems like the bearings and motor go out a lot on the 788s.  Sometimes the controller boards.  There are folks that do thin board cutting (puzzles/fret work) that have been using their 788s for 10 years.  The service centers don't really know how to work on the 788s, but then again, the rest of the saws, (except possibly Jet) don't have that option at all unless you live close to the single source vendor.  So, I believe the EXs are more durable, but can't prove it.  That won't work in persuading your wife because she would just say, "then use it until it dies."

If you were doing bowls, or a lot of angle cutting, then the EX really shines.  If you want variable aggression, again the EX shines.  If you want consistent agression, then the DW will be predictable, with no back knob to trick you into screwing up your "tuning."

The stand on the EX is more flexible (and harder to figure out where to put your feet).

If I had to justify my saw purchases, I would probably be still using the Hitachi CW-40

Edited February 4, 2018 by hotshot

[kmmcrafts]

30 minutes ago, hotshot said:

 If you want consistent agression, then the DW will be predictable, with no back knob to trick you into screwing up your "tuning."

The stand on the EX is more flexible (and harder to figure out where to put your feet).

If I had to justify my saw purchases, I would probably be still using the Hitachi CW-40

[SCROLLSAW703]

bein' a Hawk advocate, I'm not goin' to say they are good for every type of cuttin', or, for every sawyer. As Randy pointed out, if you're lookin' for the John Deere of saws, the Ex, Hegner, Seyco, & DeWalt are what you're wantin'. 

If you're lookin' for the Cadillac of saws, the Hawk, imo, is the choice saw. For several reasons. Blade change is easy. Blade speed is easily adjusted. As mentioned, Hawk does have a given speed that they call "harmonic balance". You get around or above that & there is goin' to be some vibration. But, with use & practice, you can learn to smooth out the vibration.Blade Aggression can be adjusted on the fly. Easily worked on. Parts & tech support are superb!!! I'm not goin' to say they don't have imperfections out of the box. Ya may have to tinker with it some to get it just right for you. Squarin' & levelin' the saw is a snap! Everything is out in the open that needs lubed. I have mine on casters, on a wood shop floor, & I have it on HF rubber mats. I have eliminated all of the vibration. Mine will pass the nickel test w/out hesitation.

 

Yes, they are a slower cuttin' saw, but designed to cut with perfection. You'll find that you can cut with a #0/2 blade up to as big a blade as you think you need. I own a BM 26, & I can cut a 2" stack with a #7 blade if need be. I don't cut that thick very often bcause all of my projects are hardwood. I cut each project itself so it's clean & perfect for the customer.

I have a CW 40 I also use for certain projects. I also have a Craftsman Set up I use. I've worn out one Hawk. 

IMO, the question of which saw is best because it costs more is BULLSH*T!! Ya need to test drive the saw for yourself to see if it suits ya! Every saw cuts different, sounds different, handles different, & has a learnin' curve! The best advice I'd give ya, read & study the reviews. Get your hands on the saw BEFORE ya spend yer money. LEARN about the machine. You won't regret it! God Bless & good luck.

[OCtoolguy]

19 hours ago, SCROLLSAW703 said:

bein' a Hawk advocate, I'm not goin' to say they are good for every type of cuttin', or, for every sawyer. As Randy pointed out, if you're lookin' for the John Deere of saws, the Ex, Hegner, Seyco, & DeWalt are what you're wantin'. 

If you're lookin' for the Cadillac of saws, the Hawk, imo, is the choice saw. For several reasons. Blade change is easy. Blade speed is easily adjusted. As mentioned, Hawk does have a given speed that they call "harmonic balance". You get around or above that & there is goin' to be some vibration. But, with use & practice, you can learn to smooth out the vibration.Blade Aggression can be adjusted on the fly. Easily worked on. Parts & tech support are superb!!! I'm not goin' to say they don't have imperfections out of the box. Ya may have to tinker with it some to get it just right for you. Squarin' & levelin' the saw is a snap! Everything is out in the open that needs lubed. I have mine on casters, on a wood shop floor, & I have it on HF rubber mats. I have eliminated all of the vibration. Mine will pass the nickel test w/out hesitation.

 

Yes, they are a slower cuttin' saw, but designed to cut with perfection. You'll find that you can cut with a #0/2 blade up to as big a blade as you think you need. I own a BM 26, & I can cut a 2" stack with a #7 blade if need be. I don't cut that thick very often bcause all of my projects are hardwood. I cut each project itself so it's clean & perfect for the customer.

I have a CW 40 I also use for certain projects. I also have a Craftsman Set up I use. I've worn out one Hawk. 

IMO, the question of which saw is best because it costs more is BULLSH*T!! Ya need to test drive the saw for yourself to see if it suits ya! Every saw cuts different, sounds different, handles different, & has a learnin' curve! The best advice I'd give ya, read & study the reviews. Get your hands on the saw BEFORE ya spend yer money. LEARN about the machine. You won't regret it! God Bless & good luck.

I'm curious. What is a CW 40? Was that a typo or is it something I'm not familiar with?

Ray