Outdoor sign question

[GrampaJim]

I have an custom order for an outdoor sign.  I know enough to finish it with spar varnish.  Would Oak stand up to the weather better than pine?  I know that cedar is the ultimate, but I am very allergic to the stuff. 

Any other thought or suggestions are most welcome.

[WayneMahler]

Jim

If you can get white oak it would be a better choice. It is a lot more rot and weather resistant then it's red oak cousin. Cedar is my #1 choice but I'm not suffering from an allergy to it. Other great choices would be Ipe, Cypress and Redwood. Good luck with you project, post  a photo when you complete it please. 

[Phantom Scroller]

My experience of oak is it turns a grey bleached colour over time even when I've vanish it. Still looks good though. Roly

[NC Scroller]

Jim since you are up north I would recommend black locust or white oak.

[oldhudson]

I'd vote for white oak and a good paint job will be better than any varnish.

[Scrolling Steve]

I have learned that when using spar varnish,use multiple coats,  then, add one more !

[Bill WIlson]

To be frank, I've never read any good reviews of Minwax Spar varnish.  It is almost universally scorned on other woodworking forums I've participated in.  Good quality, commercial grade spar varnish is very expensive and usually only available from marine supply stores.

One suggestion that has had a lot of interest over the years, is clear paint base.  I've personally never tried it, so I can't vouch for it's performance, but I've read a number of testimonials about it.  Below is a cut & paste of a portion of the first internet posting that I recall ever reading about it;

There were several things I knew about paint:

Exterior paints contain a mildewcide and a fungicide that a (marine) varnish does not.
The best quality paints will contain a UV (inhibitor) and trans-oxide pigments in very high percentages.
Almost all paint is custom mixed by the store. The retailer maintains a large supply of base products that are used to achieve the desired color.

There are generally four base products and the specific one for your paint is determined by your color choice. These base products are either named or numbered. They are named pastel, deep, tint and neutral. If numbered it is cleverly 1, 2, 3 and 4 with the exception of Olympic who numbers 1, 2, 3 and 5. Olympic is unaware that “4” comes before “5”. Pastel and/or 1 is virtually a pure white and used for the lightest of colors. The others are slightly color altered from white and more translucent than pastel. These are used for succeeding deeper colors. All of this comes to neutral, 4 and/or 5. These are clear and used for (mixing) the darkest colors. In the can they are somewhat opaque but dry more or less clear.

[kmmcrafts]

50 minutes ago, Bill WIlson said:

To be frank, I've never read any good reviews of Minwax Spar varnish.  It is almost universally scorned on other woodworking forums I've participated in.  Good quality, commercial grade spar varnish is very expensive and usually only available from marine supply stores.

One suggestion that has had a lot of interest over the years, is clear paint base.  I've personally never tried it, so I can't vouch for it's performance, but I've read a number of testimonials about it.  Below is a cut & paste of a portion of the first internet posting that I recall ever reading about it;

There were several things I knew about paint:

Exterior paints contain a mildewcide and a fungicide that a (marine) varnish does not.
The best quality paints will contain a UV (inhibitor) and trans-oxide pigments in very high percentages.
Almost all paint is custom mixed by the store. The retailer maintains a large supply of base products that are used to achieve the desired color.

There are generally four base products and the specific one for your paint is determined by your color choice. These base products are either named or numbered. They are named pastel, deep, tint and neutral. If numbered it is cleverly 1, 2, 3 and 4 with the exception of Olympic who numbers 1, 2, 3 and 5. Olympic is unaware that “4” comes before “5”. Pastel and/or 1 is virtually a pure white and used for the lightest of colors. The others are slightly color altered from white and more translucent than pastel. These are used for succeeding deeper colors. All of this comes to neutral, 4 and/or 5. These are clear and used for (mixing) the darkest colors. In the can they are somewhat opaque but dry more or less clear.

I've done the base paint on a sign I did a few years ago..  The odd part of my story is.. the counter people at the mixing station thought I was nuts that I wanted paint that had no pigment in it.. And they didn't belive me that it would dry clear.. as the can of paint without the pigment looks like milky white.. He took a sample and let it dry.. sure enough it dried clear.. Funny thing was is he argued with me that it wasn't going to be clear.. Should have wagered some money on that. like if it dries clear I get the can free, LOL... You have to do real light coats or else it will dry kind of hazy and not look real great..  The signs I did was about 4-5 years ago.. still looking pretty good.. haven't been recoated or anything yet.. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by kmmcrafts

[Rockytime]

Has anyone tried automotive clear coat?

[kmmcrafts]

26 minutes ago, Rockytime said:

Has anyone tried automotive clear coat?

Good friend of mine did that on a mini hay wagon for to pull kids around at the lawn / garden tractor shows and parades.. made from walnut and wow! sure is a sharp looking rig.. But it doesn't see much outside weather so durability is a ? I would think it would be one of the best options.. coming from a ex auto collision worker.. But who knows how it holds up on wood.. 

[spirithorse]

Thanks for the question, Grandpa Jim,

You have definitely peaked my interest in trying the clear paint method.
What color or number of base paint does one ask for to get the desired, clear results on an outdoor sign?
God Bless! Spirithorse

[GrampaJim]

Well, didn't I open a can of worms.   What do the guys that do router signs use for wood and finish?

[spirithorse]

11 minutes ago, GrampaJim said:

Well, didn't I open a can of worms.   What do the guys that do router signs use for wood and finish?

The signs I have seen made in Tennessee are almost all western red cedar and that is also what most of
Judy Gale Roberts intarsia pieces are made from.

God Bless! Spirithorse

[tomsteve]

41 minutes ago, GrampaJim said:

Well, didn't I open a can of worms.   What do the guys that do router signs use for wood and finish?

that varies. some use MDO for the sign itself. oneshot sign paint is used a lot in outdoor sign making. i think a lot depends on what the customer wants and where the sign will go.

 

as for outdoor finish, i have had the best luck with sherwin william A100 non tinted.  acrylic/water based clears will hold up and last longer than oilbased on signs. another good clear finish is general finishes exterior 450.

 

as for the auto paint on exterior work, ive done some. sherwin williams ultra 7000 clear, nason 496 clear, and southern polyurethanes universal clear. of the 3, the SPI lasted the longest, but the wood movement caused them all to crack eventually.

 

no matter the finish, if its on wood and goes outdoors, there will be maintainence.

[stoney]

1 hour ago, tomsteve said:

 

 

no matter the finish, if its on wood and goes outdoors, there will be maintainence.

 

Amen!   I have tried any number of products on wood used outside over the last 55 years and found all of them lacking for the long haul.   Any wood left out in the elements with a finish applied is going to require continual maintenance.    Take treated wood decks for example.   With  treated wood decks you have yourself a part time job for as long as you own it. JMHO

Edited March 12, 2018 by stoney

[Dave Monk]

I used a synthetic decking material......used the same material for the backer. Used waterproof glue to put the together. Finished with Watco exterior oil.

[Bill WIlson]

14 hours ago, spirithorse said:

You have definitely peaked my interest in trying the clear paint method.
What color or number of base paint does one ask for to get the desired, clear results on an outdoor sign?
God Bless! Spirithorse

My understanding is that you ask for the one used for the darkest colors, which should be the highest number in their series.  Different manufacturers have slightly different numbers, but it would be in the range of a #4 or #5.

Paint stores are reluctant to sell it, because that kind of usage is outside the norm for their product and they fear that poor results will reflect negatively on their product.  Tell them you are simply doing a test and you won't hold them responsible for any failure and they may be more cooperative.