Detailed Fret work - advice needed please

[new2woodwrk]

I cut a piece this morning.

It had more fine fretwork than anything I've done to date

My problem or questions I have is - when I was cutting, some of the cuts were very close together (about or less than a 1/16") and as I was cutting the piece around the cut was bouncing/lifting slightly.

I had to hold my finger on the small cut outs because I was afraid it would break.

I read an article that said leave the cuts in place and tape them to give the whole piece more stability - problem was as I cut them out, they would come out of the cut -  I am not using a zero clearance top and some of the very small cuts would drop - those I'm sure with a zero clearance I can keep from dropping.

However, the ones that come out do you put them back in and tape them or leave them out?

I cut this very slowly as well - here is the cut 2 stack 1/8" BB ply

Thanks as always in advance

 

[OCtoolguy]

Very nice job. I have heard that you can take an old playing card, run it half way through the blade and tape it down to the table top to give you a zero clearance helper. I haven't tried it yet but it makes sense. I have the same saw as you except mine is a Dewalt. You are really coming along. Way better than me.

Ray

 

[Rockytime]

That cutting looks nice. If something is missing I could not see it.

[WayneMahler]

Nice job cutting them out Jes. As for the little pieces dropping out, I use a playing card for a zero insert, just tape it in place and cut away. Sometimes they will then pop out the top and you can use clear tape to hold them in in needed. I always cut the smallest most sensitive areas out first to help avoid any problems and breakage. Great job, keep up the good work and questions your coming along at a really great pace. 

[dgman]

From what I can see, it should not make any difference if any waste parts fall out through the table hole or pops out from the top. It's very difficult to cut yourself on a scrollsaw blade, so if you need to, you can use a finger to hold a piece down close to the blade so it doesn't bounce around. If you are afraid to do that, use the eraser end of a pencil to hold the work down. For me, I have never had a need for a zero clearance table. I cut a lot of fine fret work but just have not had a need.

[fredfret]

I cut from the most interior to the outside,  tape back most of the pieces the real small pieces I skip taping. Holding down very delicate areas is normal. Those look good, keep it up.

Fred fret

 

[kmmcrafts]

I've never needed or even used a zero clearance either... I do plan my pilot holes to the cutting I will be doing.. IE.. I drill the holes so that I'm cutting right next to the last hole I cut out first. I've done that opposite once and when you have a cutout almost cut and are left with cutting next to a thin line like you mention it's more likely to break it.. Not sure if you follow what I'm sayin but.. anyway I tried LOL

Edit to add:

Edited April 1, 2018 by kmmcrafts

[kmmcrafts]

Note the whiskers on this leopard I cut several years ago.. The ones on the right side broke out some.. because I didn't drill the holes to make it cut the weak side first.. this is the piece I learned to do that on. If I was to cut it again.. I'm pretty certain I could do it without breakage just by drilling the holes strategically.. This was cut stack cutting 4 1/8" 11 x 14... two was BB ply and two was oak plywood.. used a #5 FD-UR and some areas a #3 FD UR.. Another thing that could have helped not break it would be a different blade choice... reverse teeth are nice but for a fragile piece.. they can and will make a piece bounce around like you mentioned... that's those reverse teeth cutting away the fuzzys etc on the up stroke... Still looks alright and most people probably wouldn't know the whiskers on the one side broke out... now that I say it everyone will be looking at the spot.. but otherwise pretty sure the average person wouldn't know that.     

[OCtoolguy]

6 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

Note the whiskers on this leopard I cut several years ago.. The ones on the right side broke out some.. because I didn't drill the holes to make it cut the weak side first.. this is the piece I learned to do that on. If I was to cut it again.. I'm pretty certain I could do it without breakage just by drilling the holes strategically.. This was cut stack cutting 4 1/8" 11 x 14... two was BB ply and two was oak plywood.. used a #5 FD-UR and some areas a #3 FD UR.. Another thing that could have helped not break it would be a different blade choice... reverse teeth are nice but for a fragile piece.. they can and will make a piece bounce around like you mentioned... that's those reverse teeth cutting away the fuzzys etc on the up stroke... Still looks alright and most people probably wouldn't know the whiskers on the one side broke out... now that I say it everyone will be looking at the spot.. but otherwise pretty sure the average person wouldn't know that.     

Kevin, on a piece like this would you start your cutting from the whiskers out or would they be some of the last cuttings? I'm not sure I understand the methodology of this subject. I can certainly see how you would want to tape in the removed pieces for stability but I'm just not sure what you mean by strategic planning.

Ray

 

[SCROLLSAW703]

  Your ships look great! Keep up the good work! Are you goin' to frame them? That would make them really stand out!

 I've got one saw set up with a zero clearance pilot hole. I use it for feathers, small fretwork projects, etc. Otherwise, my BM 26 gets most of the work. It doesn't have much of a clearance pilot hole. 

When I drill my entry holes in small fret work, I don't drill them close together, or in curves. reason being, to initiate a cut directly next to one another in fine work is disaster in the making. Drill your entry holes opposite of one another. That way, not only the start of the cut, but the vibration of the blade cutting doesn't break what you've already cut. And I tape small, close work to keep it from breakin' apart. 

Another primary issue with fine fret work is blade size & speed. I'm a slow cutter, & in fine work, use the smallest blade I can to keep the work lookin' shiny.;) I've been called a perfectionist more than once. 

Fretwork has a reputation of wantin' to jump a little during cutting. As mentioned, it is tough to get cut with a scroll saw. It can be done, but, well, we'll leave that for another day. If your project wants to jump, try slowin' your blade speed down just a little. Use your hold down foot that came with your saw, or, you can put a little down pressure with your fingers on both sides of the blade.

 

[lew]

This is some fine cutting!! I can't offer any advice but your work is really good!!

[SCROLLSAW703]

35 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

Kevin, on a piece like this would you start your cutting from the whiskers out or would they be some of the last cuttings? I'm not sure I understand the methodology of this subject. I can certainly see how you would want to tape in the removed pieces for stability but I'm just not sure what you mean by strategic planning.

Ray

 

Not to jump in on kevins post, ray, but, were it me cuttin' it, I would drill entry holes close to his nose, between the whiskers. I'd start the cutting at his nose, leaving the whiskers to cut at the end of the project. Leaving support around the whiskers to prevent breaking. Probably taping too. The rest of the project would get cut out around them. And then come back & cut out the whiskers to finish out the project. Does that mat make sense?

[kmmcrafts]

28 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

Kevin, on a piece like this would you start your cutting from the whiskers out or would they be some of the last cuttings? I'm not sure I understand the methodology of this subject. I can certainly see how you would want to tape in the removed pieces for stability but I'm just not sure what you mean by strategic planning.

Ray

 

Ray, The whiskers on the left side of the picture.. I'd cut closest to the leopards mouth first then the next hole would be drilled almost near the point in the next cutout next to it ( smaller cutout ) but since I typically cut counter clock wise.. drill the hole near the point at the bottom of that next cut and i'd cut down into that pointed area and spin the cut up to cut along the side next to the last cutout ( next to the Leopards mouth ) cut up along that thin line of the whisker and then spin back around and come back down the other side to the starting point.. Then the next section outward from the mouth.. so in the whiskers area of that pattern would be the first part of the cutting I'd do.. working from the leopards face outward on each side of the face.. I do the weaker cuts first.. 

When I did this cutting several years ago. the whiskers was about one of the last parts I cut.. which by then you're working with a very large fragile area, LOL 

[kmmcrafts]

I've never used a zero clearance... nor have I ever taped pieces back in to help with strength.. While it may help some? I don't see it helping all that much since the cut is already there and weakens the piece anyway...  I do the fragile parts first because I feel doing them last you have a whole lot of fragile going on.. plus.. if you need to scrap the project because the fragile section broke out.. it's easier to do with only 1 hour invested rather than 6 hours or more. LOL

I'm sure others will differ with my theory.. and I really don't do a lot of this portrait style cutting.. so maybe someone else has a different or better method.. What I do works for me.. That Leopard cutting was one of my first fragile type cuttings I've done and was a learning piece for me, LOL 

[new2woodwrk]

23 minutes ago, SCROLLSAW703 said:

  Your ships look great! Keep up the good work! Are you goin' to frame them? That would make them really stand out!

 I've got one saw set up with a zero clearance pilot hole. I use it for feathers, small fretwork projects, etc. Otherwise, my BM 26 gets most of the work. It doesn't have much of a clearance pilot hole. 

When I drill my entry holes in small fret work, I don't drill them close together, or in curves. reason being, to initiate a cut directly next to one another in fine work is disaster in the making. Drill your entry holes opposite of one another. That way, not only the start of the cut, but the vibration of the blade cutting doesn't break what you've already cut. And I tape small, close work to keep it from breakin' apart. 

Another primary issue with fine fret work is blade size & speed. I'm a slow cutter, & in fine work, use the smallest blade I can to keep the work lookin' shiny.;) I've been called a perfectionist more than once. 

Fretwork has a reputation of wantin' to jump a little during cutting. As mentioned, it is tough to get cut with a scroll saw. It can be done, but, well, we'll leave that for another day. If your project wants to jump, try slowin' your blade speed down just a little. Use your hold down foot that came with your saw, or, you can put a little down pressure with your fingers on both sides of the blade.

 

Thanks Brad,

Yes, they will be framed - in the process of gluing up 2 new frames just for them.

What about when the pieces pop out? Do you replace them in place and tape them? That's what was happening and I wasn't sure if I should fetch them out of the trash and tape them in (they popped into the trash I keep next to my stool).

I also am a very slow cutter - I've been on the slowest speed for these and others and only increase speed for straight/long cuts and even then rarely get above half speed

What size blade would you have used to cut these? I used a Pegas 3 UR

Buts don't bother me - I've gotten very close to the blade a few times and nicked a nail no biggie so far.

Thanks all for the advise - greatly appreciated

[new2woodwrk]

9 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I've never used a zero clearance... nor have I ever taped pieces back in to help with strength.. While it may help some? I don't see it helping all that much since the cut is already there and weakens the piece anyway...  I do the fragile parts first because I feel doing them last you have a whole lot of fragile going on.. plus.. if you need to scrap the project because the fragile section broke out.. it's easier to do with only 1 hour invested rather than 6 hours or more. LOL

I'm sure others will differ with my theory.. and I really don't do a lot of this portrait style cutting.. so maybe someone else has a different or better method.. What I do works for me.. That Leopard cutting was one of my first fragile type cuttings I've done and was a learning piece for me, LOL 

This makes sense to me as well - when I started this cut I was hesitant to make the smaller cuts so I opted to do a few of the tight ones first and see how I did. Since they seemed to work ok, I kept going and it was this that started to get nervy.

The more I cut the more flimsy things became until I had to keep a finger on the thin areas

[SCROLLSAW703]

I wouldn't worry about the pieces that pop out, as long as you've fully cut them. No reason to tape them back in place. If you start cutting your project in the center, as a rule, cut out from there. I personally cut clockwise from the center out. 

When you come to a place in the project where several cuts meet close together, start at the weakest point & work to the strongest point. This way, you've got the smallest, weakest, pieces cut when you get to the stronger point. And while you're cutting your stronger points, the weaker places don't break apart.

As far as blade size, personally, I would use a #3 polar blade. In the smaller cuts, I would use a #1 polar blade. Both Olson blades. The reason for my choice of blades is because of the thin material, & the polar blades give a cleaner, smoother cut. 

hope all this answers your questions, jes. If not, post more & we'll answer'em.:)

[kmmcrafts]

48 minutes ago, new2woodwrk said:

This makes sense to me as well - when I started this cut I was hesitant to make the smaller cuts so I opted to do a few of the tight ones first and see how I did. Since they seemed to work ok, I kept going and it was this that started to get nervy.

The more I cut the more flimsy things became until I had to keep a finger on the thin areas

I will cut out many small areas before cutting out a large fragile area.. example would be the leopards lower chin area.. I'd cut out all of those smaller areas out of the chin... then cutout around the chine.. If I did the opposite of that cutting out those little spots in that area after cutting out the bigger spots would have me on edge.. so sometimes you really have to study a pattern to see what you need to do first and plan out where your pilot holes are going to need to be.. 

After you do a few projects you'll get the hang of it better and be able to look at a pattern and know better what you need to do.. I still mess up the cutting order and will get ahead of myself from time to time..and say... maybe cut the large portion of the chin area out first without thinking... then I say to myself.. Oh Crap, LOL then just cut it very slow and careful... and when that does happen.. sometimes I'll go to a much smaller less aggressive blade..

For stack cutting only two 1/8" like you did... I'd probably go down a size in blades.. I typically stack at least 3 ( usually 4-5 ).. and use either a 3 or 5 blade.. Can't remember the last time I only cut 2.. but I do know they get tougher to do unless you run the saw real slow.. I do know the last time I did cut only 2 I used a FD -UR #1 blade.. On another note with blades.. a brand new blade will cut quite fast at first.. Plywood will take the edge off the sharpness fairly quick.. so in some cases... after I've put in a new blade... Sometimes I will cut out larger less detailed sections to sort of take that edge off.. before jumping on the harder fine detailed stuff... just sort of helps from cutting too fast when you're trying to go slow and take it easy..  

Edit to add: I cannot remember what saw you have.. Think it was you that just got the new Delta? Anyway.. blade size from one saw to the next can have a different effect on how fast / aggressive the cutting will be.. Example... Where I use a Pegas #3 on my DeWalt, or Excalibur for a cutting... If I was to cut on my Hawks... I'd jump it up to a #5.. as the Hawk is a less aggressive cutting action of the long arms vrs. the short little arms of the DeWalt style saws.. so basically the Hawk is not as aggressive cutting as the others.. and on the Hawk.. I'd still use a #3 blade for stack cutting only 2 pieces of 1/8 ply.. This is why many times I'm hesitant to say what blade size is best for certain projects.. because not all saws cut the same.. and not all people like to cut fast / slow.. it's more of a learning curve for what YOU like.. 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by kmmcrafts

[Ron Johnson]

When stack cutting an intricate detailed pattern Jes I first zero clearance my table and check table and blade are square. Blade size I prefer are numbers 2 and 3 for portraits. I start my cutting from the top left working my way across always scouting what's ahead of me for cutting. I find applyiing masking tape as you go along strengthens the delicate parts with your finger at times needed to hold down as well. Cut at the speed you're comfortable with and be relaxed. Careful removing tape when done cutting. Sample attached.

10603529_1469567353293805_8410544227275241963_n.tiff

[Dan]

No zero clearance for me either. I think about it when a small piece wants to drop and gets hung up but that isn't too often. When I did the Marx Brothers I saved some pieces to put back for support but never used them. If they pop out just toss those pieces. I do usually have a finger close to the blade when cutting fine detail. Relax and don't over-think it. It sounds like you are already doing what a lot of us do. 

[JimErn]

I mounted a 1/8 piece of masonite as a zero clearance top, one of the best things I have done - for me anyway.

I made what I call a fret-finger to hold those narrow small areas while cutting

 

EDIT - forgot to say the cutting looks great.

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by JimErn

[Brianr24]

1 hour ago, JimErn said:

I mounted a 1/8 piece of masonite as a zero clearance top, one of the best things I have done - for me anyway.

I made what I call a fret-finger to hold those narrow small areas while cutting

 

EDIT - forgot to say the cutting looks great.

 

I've done the same Jim with masonite. I had to tho I have a porter cable with the famous plastic insert that's lower than the rest of the table.

[MrsN]

just about the only time I tape a piece back in is if I have a delicate peninsula that I am worried about catching on the table while I am cutting something else. 

[RangerJay]

Sometimes the playing card trick just isn't going to work - very small ornaments as well as the antlers and paddle blades of the Kayaking Moose come very quickly to mind - these kinds of small pieces don't do well around the large cutout hole on an EX.   

I sacrificed a piece of 1/8 ply cut to fit the entire cutting table as my zero clearance "insert" - clamped on all four corners when I need a zero-clearance insert - putting a finish on it and a coat of wax is helpful.

And for those pieces that need to be held down right beside the saw blade you can take a 6 inch piece of pencil sized dowel and sharpen it in the pencil sharpener - then take the other end and give it the shape of a flat-end screwdriver on your sander - a great little homemade tool that is always beside my saw.

Finally, if those fine pieces are doing a lot of jumping around on you then experiment with a smaller blade and/or faster speed/slower push.

 

Jay