deal or no deal?

[GrampaJim]

found this Hawk for $450.  Thoughts?

[Sam777]

Call RBI and give them the serial number. Ask them if it has one of them Fasco motors which had problems.

I had done that.

Good luck

Sam

[kmmcrafts]

Yeah, I also ask Buston MFG many times about the saws I'm looking at buying...  If you go look at a used saw.. check the wedges at the back of the saw.. the point on the wedges is one of the wear points on these saws... Not expensive to buy new but they are a tell tail sign of how much use it's had.. provided they haven't been replaced already, LOL.. The wedges should be quite pointed with a slight rounded tip.. Check that the tension lever ( at front of saw ) goes down and locks down into place against the arm..  Look to see if it has a round ( barrel clamp for the lower blade clamp ) or the more square one.. Barrel clamp is a older saw.. Not sure when they went to the newer clamp but I know the Ultra saws started around 1996 and they have the newer square looking clamp..

In good shape.. with the square type lower clamp.. I'd say not a bad deal at all.. but if it's a barrel clamp style.. probably not a bad deal if in great shape... but I wouldn't say it's a great deal..  The biggest worry of the barrel clamp style is if it's older one with the older motor.. as.. if there is any issue with that controller or motor.. Bushton will fix you up with a new motor and controller. but the cost is around $300-400 and I think you have to send them the saw.. but maybe not.. maybe they will send you the motor and controller assembly and let you put it together.. Something to ask I suppose if you're interested in buying it.. 

 

Edited to say: looking at the serial number.. I'm guessing it's probably a barrel clamp style.. But may be wrong..

Edited April 4, 2018 by kmmcrafts

[Oldmansbike]

Mine is serial number 5696 and I bought it new in 1996. It has the square clamps and is an Ultra if this helps you any.

[Dan]

Just buy it. 

[OCtoolguy]

There have been quite a few Hawks for sale near me. I always just look at the switch on the side before going any further. If it doesn't have the variable speed controller next to the switch, I just pass it on by. With that said, the ones that are on C/L right now are all non-variable speed and they are asking nearly the same price as the one you are inquiring about. So, by all means do what the more knowledgeable folks here have suggested and get hold of RBI/Bushton and see what they can tell you.

Ray

 

[kmmcrafts]

Come across the lake and buy mine.. I'd sell my 220VS for half that  

[GrampaJim]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

Come across the lake and buy mine.. I'd sell my 220VS for half that  

I don't know about crossing the lake - I think the ice is melting.

And I avoid that city to the south of me.

[SCROLLSAW703]

kevin is right. If you can get your hands on it to have a closer look see, check the wedge at back of the top arm. If it shows any wear, metal grindings, etc., & no lube such as graphite, it has some hours of use. There is more to just replacin' the wedge if it's bad enough. The bottom arm may have to come apart & sent to Bushton for repair. That wedge, the bearings, & the motor & controller are the main parts to look at. Your blade tension at the nose of the top arm can be adjusted to snap over & hold tension on the blade.

Hopefully it has the manual with it. All & All, $450 isn't a bad price. I've seen them higher & wore out. Just be cautious. And call Bushton & ask questions.

[SCROLLSAW703]

the 220VS would be worth your trip, Jim. They are a good saw. just not a newer one. But parts are available for it. Knowing Kevin, it's ready to make saw dust! And it will have the the barrel type blade holders. The newer saws have better blade holders, but the piece underneath that holds the blade holder in place is metal, & does break. Something else to think about. They ain't hard to change out, just a couple small hex screws. And a couple bucks for a replacement. 

Also, check the threads on the adjustment bolt at the back of the newer saw. If there is wear on the threads, it's a dead give away the saw has several hours on it. There are several other things, too, but until you see the saw up close, Bushton will give you more information by the serial number.

[Dan]

3 hours ago, octoolguy said:

There have been quite a few Hawks for sale near me. I always just look at the switch on the side before going any further. If it doesn't have the variable speed controller next to the switch, I just pass it on by. With that said, the ones that are on C/L right now are all non-variable speed and they are asking nearly the same price as the one you are inquiring about. So, by all means do what the more knowledgeable folks here have suggested and get hold of RBI/Bushton and see what they can tell you.

Ray

 

I'm just the opposite. I've had issues with variable speed controls going out. That's why I passed on the Dewalt and went with the Delta P-20. 

[kmmcrafts]

51 minutes ago, SCROLLSAW703 said:

. Knowing Kevin, it's ready to make saw dust! And it will have the the barrel type blade holders.

Yeah, made sawdust tonight with it... actually the saw has about $200 worth of upgrades.. 3-4 new barrel clamps.. upgraded to a flex hose air blower, and brand new.. maybe 4 hours use on the upgraded new upper tension lever blade clamp.. replaced the whole mechanism per Bushtons recommendations.... I do question  wedge and arms on the machine though.. as well as it does have that old motor.. I haven't really had any issues with it.. but it was used quite a lot before I bought it and I've put a few hours on it myself in the couple years I've had it.. Why I have 5 saws.. I rotate from one to another spreading out the wear, LOL since I consider myself a production cutter.. LOL..  I paid $100 for the saw but did put a lot of money in it.. as well as used it quite a lot.. 

I've really contemplated putting it up for sale.. but I honestly hate to sell it given the known use it's had and the fact the motor is the problematic one.. My luck someone would buy it and have issues with it.. SO... I just keep on using it, LOL   

[Rockytime]

Can someone explain the problematic motors to me? What was the problem? On what Hawks were they used?

[GrampaJim]

I have been try to contact Bushton for two day.  No reply to several emails and I always get a busy signal when I call.  Planting time in Kansas??

[kmmcrafts]

6 minutes ago, GrampaJim said:

I have been try to contact Bushton for two day.  No reply to several emails and I always get a busy signal when I call.  Planting time in Kansas??

That is one downside to their scroll saw company... They are somewhat difficult to get a hold of.. I'm not sure I've ever received a reply to any emailed questions other than they seemed responsive to questions about my placed orders.. Best to catch them on the phone.. but even as you've figured out..they are hard to catch up with on the phone too.. I sort of believe they may only have the one phone line that is personal and business... 

[GrampaJim]

19 minutes ago, GrampaJim said:

I have been try to contact Bushton for two day.  No reply to several emails and I always get a busy signal when I call.  Planting time in Kansas??

And of course, after I posted this I did get through on the phone.

Good news: great customer server, answered all my questions.  Super people to work with!

Bad news: It probably has the dreaded Fasco motor.  It will say the mfg on the motor label.  From what Bushton says, these are failing often and they seem to think most of them will eventually.  Replacement kit is estimate to be $400.00.  Ouch!  They did say someone had one of the bad motors repaired locally at a lower cost.

So its off to look at this machine, to check it out. 

[kmmcrafts]

13 hours ago, Rockytime said:

Can someone explain the problematic motors to me? What was the problem? On what Hawks were they used?

I'm not certain it's a motor issue, might just be a speed control issue or circuit board issue.. The real issue is that.. the company that made the motor or controller assembly s no longer in business.. so Bushton says if the controller fails.. they cannot get the parts to fix it.. so their fix for you is to replace the whole assembly.. Now.. not to say they a small electric motor shop can't make a repair.. as Bushton isn't a electric motor repair service. they just buy the assemblies and repair what they can.. For instance if the pot meter goes out... their fix is to sell you a whole new control box.. So since the control box is part of the motor assembly I'm guessing they cannot get a control box for these older motors since the company went out of business..  So anything that goes bad in the electronic system on the older hawks... their fix is new motor controller assembly at $300+ .. If I had an issue with mine.. I'd test what I could and then take it to a motor shop to see what can be done... Odds are.. a good motor repair shop could fix what you have much cheaper than the whole replacement..  I happen to have an awesome motor shop about 20 miles away.. those guys have saved me bundles of money on a lot of things from Well pump motor to air compressor to my cheap skil brand table saw motor they fixed last year.. They fix the table saw last year for me for $6.. I almost tossed it out and forked out $500 for a new one.. because when I get a new one.. I'm getting a better quality one.. just didn't have the extra cash when the table saw went out.. and they fixed me up... said it won't last a real long time but probably bought me another couple years he said..     

[GrampaJim]

I agree with Kev.  Based on what Bushton told me, it is actually the "computer speed control" that goes bad and burns out the motor.  As the control goes bad, the motor gets too much current (and runs really fast as a symptom) and the excess current kills the motor. 

Based on their statements, I think the control COULD be repaired.  Since these were made in the 80' and 90's "computer control" is not what most would call a computer today.  It is likely NOT a processor chip, but a bunch of discrete components.  Motor control circuits are not that complex and should be repairable by a skill electronic technician.  In this day and age good like finding one of those. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by GrampaJim

[Rockytime]

3 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I'm not certain it's a motor issue, might just be a speed control issue or circuit board issue.. The real issue is that.. the company that made the motor or controller assembly s no longer in business.. so Bushton says if the controller fails.. they cannot get the parts to fix it.. so their fix for you is to replace the whole assembly.. Now.. not to say they a small electric motor shop can't make a repair.. as Bushton isn't a electric motor repair service. they just buy the assemblies and repair what they can.. For instance if the pot meter goes out... their fix is to sell you a whole new control box.. So since the control box is part of the motor assembly I'm guessing they cannot get a control box for these older motors since the company went out of business..  So anything that goes bad in the electronic system on the older hawks... their fix is new motor controller assembly at $300+ .. If I had an issue with mine.. I'd test what I could and then take it to a motor shop to see what can be done... Odds are.. a good motor repair shop could fix what you have much cheaper than the whole replacement..  I happen to have an awesome motor shop about 20 miles away.. those guys have saved me bundles of money on a lot of things from Well pump motor to air compressor to my cheap skil brand table saw motor they fixed last year.. They fix the table saw last year for me for $6.. I almost tossed it out and forked out $500 for a new one.. because when I get a new one.. I'm getting a better quality one.. just didn't have the extra cash when the table saw went out.. and they fixed me up... said it won't last a real long time but probably bought me another couple years he said..     

Hi Kevin. Thank you for the explanation. I sent both the controller and the motor. Whatever it costs is OK with me. I had looked into the controller and saw some amateurish cold solder joints. The previous owner tried fixing it. Bushton said the motor need a bushing they did not have so I am waiting. I am happily cutting with my 216VS so I don't mind the wait. It may well be the controller caused a motor problem. If they send both new I'll be happy as the saw is like new. Again thank you.

[GrampaJim]

FYI, If you google, Fasco they are still in business!??!?!?!  Not sure what to make of that.

[kmmcrafts]

3 minutes ago, GrampaJim said:

FYI, If you google, Fasco they are still in business!??!?!?!  Not sure what to make of that.

Well I thought they was still around... so I'm not sure about that statement.. and I don't know really where I got that info from... for some reason I was thinking that is what Buston told me.. Maybe it's just some of the components that are no longer made.. I would think the pot is actually what goes bad in these saws.. and every once in a blue moon my 220 will jump speed up.. and even just touching the VS dial will make it go crazy.. So I've always done any speed changes with it stopped.. I think I'm going to take it apart and put in a new Pot.. like I did with my newer saw.. because I broke it taking it apart, LOL..  Might save me a burnt up motor.. 

[GrampaJim]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

Well I thought they was still around... so I'm not sure about that statement.. and I don't know really where I got that info from... for some reason I was thinking that is what Buston told me.

That what I was told also.

[SCROLLSAW703]

9 hours ago, GrampaJim said:

 

I've never had any issues gettin' in touch with the folks at Bushton, or getting parts. I will say that the reason I traded my 220VS was because the wedge was worn out, & I did replace it, & had to send the top arm in to them to be repaired. After that, the motor was on it's way out & it was cheaper to just trade than to put more money into it. 

I guess it's what resources you have around you that enters into the main decision. Out here in the middle of nowhere, we aren't fortunate enough to have a place that will repair electric motors. So, it's get them new, or junk the saw or whatever it is. Most of the time when a saw goes down, I don't have the time to tinker with it until I'm finished with the projects I'm working on. But if it's my Hawk, they have always managed to keep my saws runnin', & get me the parts as soon as they can get them out.