Question fo box makers.

[Dave Monk]

I make quite a few boxes.  

Process I use.

1. Miter and glue the sides together.

2. Glue the top and bottom on.

3. Sand the top and bottom flush with the sides.

4. Saw the lid off with my table saw.

The problem I have is at times my saw cut is not perfect all the way around. I use my orbital to even it up as good as possible. It doesn't always come out perfect........I always strive for perfection. Any suggestions how I can improve my process is appreciate it. 

[Bill WIlson]

"The problem I have is at times my saw cut is not perfect all the way around."

I'm going to presume you are referring to the table saw cut, that separates the lid from the box.  If that's not the case, then please ignore the questions posed below.

Do you have similar problems with other cuts on the table saw?

How are you guiding the cut?  Wth the rip fence or a jig?

What kind of blade are you using?

What is the specific imperfection you are experiencing?

[Dave Monk]

24 minutes ago, Bill WIlson said:

"The problem I have is at times my saw cut is not perfect all the way around."

I'm going to presume you are referring to the table saw cut, that separates the lid from the box.  If that's not the case, then please ignore the questions posed below.

Do you have similar problems with other cuts on the table saw?

How are you guiding the cut?  Wth the rip fence or a jig?

What kind of blade are you using?

What is the specific imperfection you are experiencing?

I use my rip fence on my table saw as a guide. I feel my table saw is adjusted well.  Set the blade to just go through the thickness of the side.  At times the cut does not match perfectly all the way around.

[WayneMahler]

Dave

I would build a jig ( sled ) for doing this. When you say your off I am assuming the cuts don't line up on the last pass through the blade. Have you checked your table saw blade for run out ? The other thing I would check is make sure your fence is adjusted properly. 

[jerry1939]

Two possible thoughts;

1.  If it's not an expensive saw, is the motor not staying solid?

2.  To me, I have often found that the blade isn't perfectly aligned with the fence.  To check this, run the blade as high as it will go.  Feed a scrap into the blade enough to cut through the board top & bottom.
DON'T TELL OSHA I SAID THIS!!!  Go to the other side of the saw, push down hard on the saw & slowly and carefully feed into the same cut.  (You could probably do this without the saw running, if you want to live to a ripe old age).  If the cut gets wider, it's a fence out of alignment.

BTW,  You do excellent work Friend.

jerry

[munzieb]

Dave, I also make different boxes, both square, domed, box joint and 8 sided (22.5 degree cuts) . On the joint box, I always leave at least 2 extra pins for the top. Depending on the width of the wood, I may end up with  short pin and I'll mount the top on that side. I have a 8" HF band saw and cut it on the 2nd pin. I have a Kreg fence for even cuts. After various attempts to get the cut marks out and even, I decided to "lap" the lower and upper edges of the top and bottom where they mate. I have a tempered 1/4" piece of glass that I carpet taped with sand paper. I also use it for glue ups. I pencil mark all edges to be sanded and proceed to figure "8" sand. When all the marks are gone, the surface is perfectly even. It can be tedious and time consuming but the effects are always the best. I need to find some sort of oscillating table  to make short work of this process. On my 8 sided boxes, I make sure that all the side pieces are exactly the same height. I sneak up on my 22.5 degree cuts until my miter is set for the rest of the cuts. On glue up, there can be a slight miss alignment but since the sizes of the pieces are identical, the lapping is minimal. Hope that helps. BTW, paintings by my wife.

[Bill WIlson]

1 hour ago, WayneMahler said:

Dave

I would build a jig ( sled ) for doing this. When you say your off I am assuming the cuts don't line up on the last pass through the blade. Have you checked your table saw blade for run out ? The other thing I would check is make sure your fence is adjusted properly. 

That's what I'm thinking as well.  If the blade has some run out or the fence is off slightly, the cut can be uneven.

Solving the root problem is the goal, but a few passes with a well tuned and sharp block plane will likely work wonders as well.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Dave there are many ways to make a box and yours is very much acceptable. I believe you saw blade is not 90 degrees to the table and or not parrallel with your fence. need to check these. Most people when doing boxes the way you are actually use a bandsaw so that they cut the top all in one pass. When you keep flipping the box over to cut another side, if there is imperfections in the set-up they get multiplied. To smooth things out the best tool is a nice 12 inch disc sander

 

[Scrappile]

I would have thought that large belt sander would work better than the disk sander.  But I will go with what you say, being I have not done it with either.  I would think this is another good application for the "drum sander". Is it not? 

There is also attaching sand paper to a very flat surface and hand sanding the two halves of the box.  Well after reading the responses, I think this is what @munzieb is referring to.  To me the safest way of doing it.

[rjweb]

The only thing I see is you are too perfect, that is a beautiful box Dave, and I agree maybe a band saw might be a better way to go, RJ 

[Sycamore67]

I used to make boxes and cut the lids of on my table saw. I now do it on a band saw with much better results.  I made a MDF board with a cut up sander belt glued to it to sand the cuts.  I find this a very quick and accurate method.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Sycamore67

[Dave Monk]

6 hours ago, munzieb said:

Dave, I also make different boxes, both square, domed, box joint and 8 sided (22.5 degree cuts) . On the joint box, I always leave at least 2 extra pins for the top. Depending on the width of the wood, I may end up with  short pin and I'll mount the top on that side. I have a 8" HF band saw and cut it on the 2nd pin. I have a Kreg fence for even cuts. After various attempts to get the cut marks out and even, I decided to "lap" the lower and upper edges of the top and bottom where they mate. I have a tempered 1/4" piece of glass that I carpet taped with sand paper. I also use it for glue ups. I pencil mark all edges to be sanded and proceed to figure "8" sand. When all the marks are gone, the surface is perfectly even. It can be tedious and time consuming but the effects are always the best. I need to find some sort of oscillating table  to make short work of this process. On my 8 sided boxes, I make sure that all the side pieces are exactly the same height. I sneak up on my 22.5 degree cuts until my miter is set for the rest of the cuts. On glue up, there can be a slight miss alignment but since the sizes of the pieces are identical, the lapping is minimal. Hope that helps. BTW, paintings by my wife.

Beautiful boxes!

[Dave Monk]

2 hours ago, Sycamore67 said:

I used to make bikes and cut the lids of on my table saw. I now do it on a band saw with much better results.  I made a MDF board with a cut up sander belt glued to it to sand the cuts.  I find this a very quick and accurate method.

I do not have a band saw but am considering buying one. Will they cut straight and smooth?

[Dave Monk]

4 hours ago, Scrappile said:

I would have thought that large belt sander would work better than the disk sander.  But I will go with what you say, being I have not done it with either.  I would think this is another good application for the "drum sander". Is it not? 

There is also attaching sand paper to a very flat surface and hand sanding the two halves of the box.  Well after reading the responses, I think this is what @munzieb is referring to.  To me the safest way of doing it.

I would love to try a drum sander for doing this.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

7 minutes ago, Dave Monk said:

I would love to try a drum sander for doing this.

No on drum sander. Please. Not enough surface area to support the drum You will get dips in front and back. A large disc sander is perfect. A belt sander can work as well but I prefer the disc.

A bandsaw can absolutely cut straight if tuned properly and a good blade is used. 

[MrsN]

When I cut off a lid that gets a bit crooked, I usually find a piece of scrap wedged against the fence.

Another thing is that on one of the table saws there is a miter gauge slot that is sort of in the way. Putting pressure down will cause the box to lift up at an angle.

[Rob]

Assuming the fence is parallel to the blade, using a featherboard to ensure the box is held tight against the fence might help.  I have also seen it suggested that you should not cut all the way through on the table saw but separate the two halves with a fine tooth saw afterwards and trim up with a block plane.

I'm no expert though!

Rob

 

[Jim Finn]

9 hours ago, Dave Monk said:

I do not have a band saw but am considering buying one. Will they cut straight and smooth?

I use my band saw to cut the top off of the thousands of boxes I have made over the past ten years.  1/2" blade cuts it straight but does leave saw marks so I then sand them lightly with my stationary belt sander or my hand held orbital sander.  I have a GO555 grizzly with riser.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Jim Finn

[Sycamore67]

Will a bandsaw cut cut straight and smooth?  Yes,it will cut straight.  Smooth...not completely.  That is why I use a the sand paper glued to MDF. 

The other way to sand is with a flat sander, sand flee, v-sander (all the same thing).  I did the box in the picture with a bandsaw and homemade flat sander.

 

[Bill WIlson]

11 hours ago, Dave Monk said:

I do not have a band saw but am considering buying one. Will they cut straight and smooth?

They are capable of cutting straight and relatively smooth, but so is a table saw.  Both require good alignment.  Frankly, I would be inclined to see if the TS issues could be corrected first.  With the right blade, proper alignment of blade & fence, the TS can produce cuts that won't even require sanding.  The upside is that you reap the same benefits on every other project you use the TS for.  A bandsaw is also very capable.  I have both in my shop.  I can go to my TS and make a good, clean cut with minimal prep.  With the bandsaw, I would probably need to change the blade (currently has a resaw blade installed = rough cut), adjust the tracking, reset the guides, set the tension, etc.  This is far more fiddling than I need to do with my TS. 

OTOH, if you are looking for an excuse to buy a bandsaw, it would be a violation of forum protocol for me to discourage you. 

[CharleyL]

Two methods that I use -

1. As you make a through cut all the way around. the lid isn't held the same distance away from the rest of the box , and the blade can make an uneven cut. Install spacers and tape o hold them in place to keep the saw kerf held open the correct space.

2. Set the saw blade to not quite cut through the box sides, After all four sides have been sawed, then finish the cut with a sharp knife.

In either case, if the box and lid end up with edges that aren't perfect, glue some 150 grit sandpaper to a piece of smooth surfaced and flat plywood. Temporarily attach this plywood to your bench with the sandpaper facing up, and place the un-even box edge face down on the sandpaper. Use mostly a figure 8 motion to sand the edge of the box and lid to sand the edges flat, keeping even downward pressure as you do this. Inspect the edge frequently, and rotate the box occasionally as you sand it. You should end up with a perfectly smooth and flat box edge. If you apply too much force to any one area, you will not have a perfect fit between the box and lid. Keep the downward pressure as even as possible and rotate the box frequently to minimize this.

I keep the piece piece of plywood with the sandpaper on it stuffed between my work benches when not in use, so I can pull it out and use it again the next time that I make a box. Almost every box needs the edges of the box and lid sanded at least a little to get them flat and smooth no matter how you cut the lid free. Correct orientation of the box to the lid is important too. I always put a piece of blue tape on the front of the box and the lid so I know how they were oriented before being cut apart. The grain will all match this way too.

Charley

[Dave Monk]

Thanks to all of you for taking time to share your thoughts and opinions. I am definitely going to start off by tuning my table saw.

[Scrappile]

On 7/25/2018 at 6:59 PM, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

No on drum sander. Please. Not enough surface area to support the drum You will get dips in front and back. A large disc sander is perfect. A belt sander can work as well but I prefer the disc.

A bandsaw can absolutely cut straight if tuned properly and a good blade is used. 

Good to know about the drum sander, thanks.

[Dave Monk]

Thanks again guys for all the info. This is such a good resource.  

I watched a very good you tube on tuning a table saw and this morning I decided I would do mine.  I have had the saw for years and all I have ever done is try to keep the fence parallel to the blade. Oh my gosh...........was it ever out of whack. Haven't tried cutting any boxes yet so time will tell.  I am going to take another suggestion and try not cutting them all the way through. Sounds like that might be a good idea. 

Thanks again.

[jerry1939]

My 1 1/2 cents worth.  I & a lot of others think there is a blade to fence error, but could be too slight to correct.

Instead of cutting all the way around, in a rotating fashion, try cutting one side, skip a side & cut the opposite side.  Repeat for the other sides.  That way you will only have a tiny error on each side.  If you keep going around, the "error" keeps getting worse.

jerry