Legal Issues

[scrollingforsanity]

I recently was looking on Pinterest and saw someone made wood puzzles out of the Looney Toon characters Daffy Duck, Bugs Bunny etc. What is your guy's ideas on legality of drawing a picture from those pictures or actually you would pretty much be copying them and making puzzles. I know there is a lot of controversy  on using someone else's picture for patterns. I would like your thoughts please.  Probably opening a whole can of worms.  Thanks for your input

grizz

    

[kmmcrafts]

For the most part.. I'd consider all images copyright protected unless otherwise stated on the pictures and or.. posted on a royalty free site... so basically yes you'd have legal issues.. not to mention that most likely the puzzles you seen are infringed upon because they are movie / show characters.. especially Disney and professional sports things... are largely illegal.. I'll also say that probably about 90% of anything you see on Pinterest is copyright or trademarked infringed..

Probably nothing wrong with making them for yourself.. just don't try selling them.. and personally I wouldn't post any photos of the pattern or the finished work made from something with copy written images etc..       

[crupiea]

I look at them like tattoos. Lots of people have disney and star wars tattoos and no one is coming after them or the artists making then scrape them off or making then stop tattooing them.

Also look at cover bands, they play nothing but other peoples music and get paid for it and dont change the words or anything. They dont get in trouble and are hired by all sorts of businesses.

Obviously I am not a lawyer but I feel as long as you dont label something as official looney toons or something like that it should not be an issue. Of course you probably are not opening a giant store selling these things either. 

Look at John Wayne, every scroller in the world makes that one pic and sells it, Is his estate coming after us all? 

When you think about it, art is all based on someone else's work. Who originally drew the circle or the square? Can we not use those shapes either? Just being devils advocate.

[zimmerstutzen]

"Also look at cover bands, they play nothing but other peoples music and get paid for it and dont change the words or anything. They dont get in trouble and are hired by all sorts of businesses."   They don't want to get caught.  A lot of folks do not realize that ASCAP actually has an army of over a half million disgruntled composers and songwriters etc who will rat everybody out.  Also, many bands do make a report similar to the ones by radio stations and legitimate DJ's reporting what songs are played and they do pay a small pittence to ASCAP which in turn distributes royalties.they collect.  A local DJ here got nailed.    A high school classmate helped write a song that became a national rock and roll song.  It rose to about 15 on the charts. .  it continues to be played a few thousand times a year on oldies radio and every six months or so he gets a check from ASCAP for a couple hundred dollars.  Considering how many ways the royalties have to be split, I am surprised he gets that much.

Most companies do not care as long as you are not selling the work.  A few, right on their web pages have licensing permission to use their name, image etc for certain purposes.  For instance Lions Clubs International has down loadable images of their symbol for t-short companies and hat companies who make apparel for Lions clubs.  Free if used to advance the purposes of Lions.    Another touchy exemption to copyright law is "fair use".  Any use of a symbol or name in a way that makes fun of the company, shows it in a humorous way or even when it is part of another work, sometimes.  For instance when a movie company  films a scene with dozens of cars traveling a city street, Ford Chevy and Dodge are not going to scream about their logo merely showing up on a car in the movies.  .Fair Use is a complicated exception and the more you read about it, the more you will be confused.    When I took copyright law many decades ago, the Stieffel lamp company  tried to trademark and copyright the designs of their lamps, so no one could copy the designs..  Frankly I do not recall how the case turned out.

Which brings me to the third point.  Don't be stupid.  alter the lines slightly.  swing a curve out a millimeter or two,  reverse the drawing. do something (where the design is simple) so the piece can't just be held up to the light to show it is all the same. In other cases,  how many drawings of rubber ducks are out there? a few hundred thousand maybe.   There are probably 600 that are almost the same, except size.  If you were to select one, how is any one going to prove that you copied their design as opposed to the other 500.  

  

[meflick]

Simple answer, it is illegal.  They are copyrighted art.  They are "famous" copyright art and they do have people who look for pirated work and will pursue  Typically, the first response if discovered is a harshly worded cease and desist letter from an attorney threatening to sue you if you don't.  Do people get sued for it?  All the time. Do people still do it, yes.  Will they all get caught, probably not.  Is it worth the risk?  My answer is no, I wouldn't risk it.  Not worth it in my opinion.  Are people confused and think even if I just make it for "personal use" its ok?  Yes.  Is that wrong?  Yes.

[scrollingforsanity]

Thank You guy's for all your input. I will just forget it. I see no way to contact the people who have posted the pattern on Pinterest and get their permission not that I can tell anyway. If they already made the puzzle from the Looney toon drawings its possible that they did it illegal anyway. Thanks again.

 

grizz

[zimmerstutzen]

Not copying another's work is always a safe course.    However, there is little that is really new in the world.  The number of songs that were "subconsciously" copied from others is amazing.  The Beatles, "My sweet Lord" is almost note for note the same as the 1960 ish hit "He's So Fine"    "Your the reason God made Oklahoma" is a copy of "Rocky Top"  A recent country Christmas song is a tune "borrowed" from Brian Wilson's 1960's beach boys songs.       One thing that is safe is to get old catalogs and magazines to use those pictures.  And when I say old, I mean over 100 years. (Technically I think 1927 may be the current fail safe date)    And beware of reprints, the printing companies alter things slightly so they can prevent you from copying their copy of the old piece.   Map companies often put small insignificant features on maps that do not exist in order to catch illegal copiers.    I check for age and whether the company is out of business.   In addition, I have reprinted articles myself from magazines of the 1950's that went belly up with no one taking over.    Old hunting and fishing magazine art is getting to be a big thing and for nice 1900 to 1925 color cover reprints some art shops are getting $25 to $50 dollars a piece.    The artist is long gone, the magazine is long gone, the copyright has expired and the image is up for grabs by anyone.     (I amassed several packing cases of such magazines and catalogs over the past 20 years.  )     I have special Christmas cards printed.  I use the December covers of such old magazines. (2 of my friend have framed the fronts of the cards and have them on the wall in their dens)      Many government agency.magazines forgot to renew their copy rights when they first expired.  It is hard to search, but those magazines are also fair game.    For instance, many state game agencies publish magazines.  You still must watch for the artists' copy rights if the artist is still alive or recently passed.  For instance if you find a copy of Harper's Weekly from the 1860's copy away.       The other thing is to just learn to draw your own design.  or learn to take pictures and use a program to print the design of that picture.    

There is an amusement park nearby that uses a purple dinosaur looking character as their mascot.  His name is Duke, but he looks amazingly like another purple dinosaur.  that was on TV for several years.  I am not sure what may have happened to permit that to go on.  

[jheille]

I use google and type in celeb photos and at the top of the page you'll see tools, go into tools and see usage rights.

[zimmerstutzen]

Meflick said  are "famous" copyright art.  and that touches on the fair use exception to the copyright act.  The more famous something is, the more it can fall under the fair use exception.  You can use any recent politicians face and no one can do a thing.  For instance, if I draw a picture of road runner finally getting sucked into a grinder by the Coyote and the road runner is squawking "Bleep, Bleep"  That is meant as a joke, and is more than a mere copy, but is used along with context and additional creativity to come up with that scene.  It would be fair use. and exempt.  The problems are that most people do not make that little additional part that can exempt it from copyright.   Porn movies get away with such farce rip offs all the time and get away with it under the fair use doctrine.    Look at all the times the Simpsons made fun of "famous" songs, products or people.  all fair use.  An acquaintance here writes country music political farce songs.  He will take a recent song that is copyrighted and change the words slightly to make some hilarious political statements.  he has recorded some and sold many.  There is nothing the original  composer or writer can do about such satire. And my acquaintance gets an enforceable copyright on the changes he makes to the song.   There is a reason why even most attorney's avoid copy right law issues.  It is confusing as can be.   

   

[zimmerstutzen]

I have got to learn the process for picture taking and converting to a design.  I saw a scrolled shadow box type thing of a famous church.  It was done so when the light behind it was turned on the lines and windows of the church really shined.  There is a peculiarly shaped church nearby that is well known for it's "different" architecture  I could probably sell a few dozen such illuminated scrolled pictures. Just throwing that idea out there for who ever is interested.

[Oldmansbike]

I used to make a lot of Harley Davidson signs and other small items and sell them or give them away. Somehow they got wind of it and politely asked me stop infrInging on their trade mark. I asked the lady if I could get licensed by them and she asked me if I could make one for every one of their hundreds of stores to sell. I said probably not. They don't want to mess around with the little guy.

[NC Scroller]

Kinda like driving along that back road near home.  You know the one where no one travels and there is never radar so it is fine doing 55 in a 40.  One day it will catch up to you and you will pay.  Don't do it.

[scrollingforsanity]

3 hours ago, Oldmansbike said:

  

 

[scrollingforsanity]

Thanks again for the replies. I was wanting to make some for my craft shows. I make Harley Davidson puzzles that I bought patterns for but apparently they had permission to sell them I hope. It's nice to be able to get several opinions and I appreciate it.

[kmmcrafts]

37 minutes ago, scrollingforsanity said:

Thanks again for the replies. I was wanting to make some for my craft shows. I make Harley Davidson puzzles that I bought patterns for but apparently they had permission to sell them I hope. It's nice to be able to get several opinions and I appreciate it.

Don’t always rely on it being okay because you bought a pattern from a designer. I’ve been nailed twice on patterns I bought from  well known designers. 

[Rockytime]

I have recently been downloading classic logos. I'm currently cutting Burma Shave which I copied off some museum site. I have also copied Flying Red Horse, Coca Cola and some others. Since there is no way to obtain copy permission, they cannot leave my shop. I cut them for myself for nostalgic reasons. They are things I remember as a child. However if you are selling, beware.

[John B]

I'm not sure of the US law, but here a photograph belongs to the photographer and is considered his/her work. So if you take a Photo of a Harley Davidson bike, or a Chev (We don't have Holdens any more) and the logo is visible,  it's yours to do with as you want. Reproduce and sell as many as you like, make patterns from it etc etc.

I have often wondered how this relates to drawings eg art, ???

[JimErn]

Go for it.

In the event you do come to the attention of a company who wants to spend the time on your craft and the sales of that particular image, the first thing the company lawyer does is send a "Cease and Desist" letter.

At that point it is up to you.

[zimmerstutzen]

Burma Shave went out of business in the early 1960, but the rights were owned by American Safety Razor Company.  They actually released a shaving set in 1997 under the name Burma Shave.  American Safety razor was part of the Personna brand, Phillip Morris ended up with it and sold it recently to AccuTec blades.  So just to find out, I wrote a nice email indicating that I was interested in reproducing some of the Burma Shave signs,.   Do they own the rights to the Burma Shave name and trademark?  And if so, under what terms would they give permission or license to reproduce the signs?    We shall see.