Table saw fence?

[Bill WIlson]

I've been using a table saw for 40 years.  My first one rarely ever had the guard on it.  After I got comfortable enough with it, I just left it off, even for routine cuts.  I have always had a healthy respect for the TS and never had a fear of it.  When I replaced my Craftsman with the Jet I currently own, I decided to make it a point to leave the guard & splitter in place.  It was a better quality saw, so I quickly found that I could work with the guard & splitter installed and not feel as inconvenienced as I did with the Craftsman.  The only time I remove it now is by necessity, when I'm cutting dadoes.  My guard and splitter are one piece, so I can't leave it on for non-through cuts. 

I've never drawn blood with my TS.  I've had a few kick backs, but never really had a close call.  However, I'm a firm believer in using the safety features of the saw.  Accidents happen to the most experienced users.  The combination of respect for the tool, proper technique and use of the safety devices is really the best way to prevent accidents.

OK, I'm down off the soapbox for good this time, I promise. 

 

[OCtoolguy]

2 minutes ago, Bill WIlson said:

I've been using a table saw for 40 years.  My first one rarely ever had the guard on it.  After I got comfortable enough with it, I just left it off, even for routine cuts.  I have always had a healthy respect for the TS and never had a fear of it.  When I replaced my Craftsman with the Jet I currently own, I decided to make it a point to leave the guard & splitter in place.  It was a better quality saw, so I quickly found that I could work with the guard & splitter installed and not feel as inconvenienced as I did with the Craftsman.  The only time I remove it now is by necessity, when I'm cutting dadoes.  My guard and splitter are one piece, so I can't leave it on for non-through cuts. 

I've never drawn blood with my TS.  I've had a few kick backs, but never really had a close call.  However, I'm a firm believer in using the safety features of the saw.  Accidents happen to the most experienced users.  The combination of respect for the tool, proper technique and use of the safety devices is really the best way to prevent accidents.

OK, I'm down off the soapbox for good this time, I promise. 

 

And you are probably correct Bill. For new users, I strongly recommend using the guards. But, for us old codgers, Les included, I think it would be more dangerous for us to try to get used to using that stuff now. I am not scared of my saw but I have a huge amount of respect for what it can do in an instant. 

 

[trackman]

I don’t use my guards either also don’t wear a helmet on bike, when young I didn’t use condoms either, girl friend got pregnant,  hummm better rethink this. LOL  

Edited October 3, 2018 by trackman

[OCtoolguy]

1 hour ago, trackman said:

I don’t use my guards either also don’t wear a helmet on bike, when young I didn’t use condoms either, girl friend got pregnant,  hummm better rethink this. LOL  

Just remember, the first child can come at any time. All the rest take 9 months.

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

First they do make quick replace riving knives now a days. Snap in and out. Most new saws come with them. I do use mine on occasion if I know a board has internal stress. You can find for just about all saws. I am also in the camp of not using the blade guard. For me it is too cumbersome and obstructs my view too much. But I also use push sticks, featherboards and jigs of all kinds to keep my fingers away from the blade. I am comfortable with what I do and always respect any power tools or any tools for that matter. I worked in construction for 43 years so am way to familiar with things that can go wrong in a heartbeat. I do recommend anyone just getting into woodworking to learn to work with the blade guard. To me the most dangerous tool in the shop is a router. So many things can go wrong with that tool if you do not know what you are doing. Work safe everyone.

[OCtoolguy]

31 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

First they do make quick replace riving knives now a days. Snap in and out. Most new saws come with them. I do use mine on occasion if I know a board has internal stress. You can find for just about all saws. I am also in the camp of not using the blade guard. For me it is too cumbersome and obstructs my view too much. But I also use push sticks, featherboards and jigs of all kinds to keep my fingers away from the blade. I am comfortable with what I do and always respect any power tools or any tools for that matter. I worked in construction for 43 years so am way to familiar with things that can go wrong in a heartbeat. I do recommend anyone just getting into woodworking to learn to work with the blade guard. To me the most dangerous tool in the shop is a router. So many things can go wrong with that tool if you do not know what you are doing. Work safe everyone.

Yes, the router is the one tool that I am still more or less afraid of. Not that I haven't used mine but as you said, anything can go wrong at any time. 

[Sycamore67]

I just want to add my voice to this.  I have been using a table saw for 40+ years.  I am too experienced and too safety aware to use either a guard or a riving knife.  I can pay attention 100% to everything and will not get hurt because I am just too good.

NOT…..Foolish thoughts on my part.

I almost always have the riving knife in my saw and only remove it for cutting dados.  I use the guard when I am ripping.  These things only make sense.  I have been using a table saw a long time and probably use it every day in my shop.

I study was done a few years ago by the CPSC and found the following –

1.       There are about 38,000 emergency room visits for table saw accidents each year.

2.      The majority of these happen while ripping a piece of wood.

3.      65% of these accidents happened with no riving knife

4.      66% happen with no blade guard.

5.      40% of these happen with a kick back.

 

I worked in a very dangerous environment of a steelmaking shop where we melted scrap to make steel and the steel got up to over 3000 F.  Safety was a primary concern but we had some many people who did not think they needed to wear all of their protective equipment or follow the rules because they had been there so long.  In this environment, there was no choice but to follow the rules as there were consequences if you did not. 

In your own shop, you can do as you please.  However,  suggesting to people that it is OK to not use a riving knife or a guard because one has a lot of experience or can pay strict attention is foolhardy.   But, I wish you guys good luck.   

I think it is really a bad idea to tell people that you can be safer by not using your riving knife or guards. 

Why would one say it is more dangerous to use a guard?????

I probably will take a lot of heat for the above but that is OK.  I am getting to be an old codger and my mind and reflexes are not what they used to be.  I do not want to be one of the statistics at the emergency room.  If you want to increase your risks, please keep doing what you are doing. 

By the way, a few years ago I bought a SawStop PCS cabinet saw because of the safety features.  It is a great saw with the fit and finish and the accuracy.  There are many who say that using such a saw will cause one to be less safe as you do not worry about getting injured.  That is just not true….I bought it because getting older, I wanted another level of safety.

I have no idea why anyone would not use their riving knife.  Mine is not in the way and does not cause any issue except when cutting a groove or dado.

To each their own and as I said Good Luck

[heppnerguy]

This is a good and informative thread. I do not know very much about table saws except that I always use them as cautiously as I can. I do not have any safety extras on my saw but I am going to look and see if I have any to put in place. I have been involved with a couple of kick backs and they are no fun. Fortunately for me it caused no permanent problems or loss of any fingers or eyes. With that said, I am now going to try and get everything that is a safety item installed on my saw. Thanks for all the input here and  the wisdom of using the safety  units for the table saw. I understand that most people do not use the hold downs on the scroll saw but that said, one would want to cut off a finger on scroll saw, I do not see how it would even be possible to do so.

Dick

heppnerguy

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

This thread has gone a different direction and sometimes that is going to happen.First off from what I have read there is  no one here telling anyone not to use a guard or a riving knife or any other safety equipment associated with any tool in the shop. There are some and I am one who do not use a guard on the tablesaw. I do many different cuts including dadoing with the same blade as I cut cross grain and rip with. As I said I use feather boards which prevent kickbacks and push sticks which keep my hands away from the blade and jigs to support small pieces cut on my saw. I am very comfortable and no not good enough not to use those devices. Now all those that claim they use a riving knife do you really or are you using a splitter ?? Big difference. Splitter will not prevent kick back as much as a riving knife. Those that use a guard do you also use the pawls with it to prevent kickback or did you remove them?? 

The stats were brought up about emergency room accidents and this is always a good one because it has been used by SawStop for years too. Did they and I say go back and ask give the stats for other tool injuries such as routers, bandsaws, chopsaws, mitersaws, radial arm saws was always a big one, power skil saws, nail guns, and the list goes on. You would be surprised. Saw Stop the biggest maker of the flesh activated stop is only about the money. They were challenged by Bosch who came out with a better designed but SawStop inventors wanted to corner the market and try to force all saw companies to purchase their technology and incorporate it in their saws, so they sued them. Greed is their motivation. Does the technology work, yes but is not the end all answer. Many times you need to shut that system off and you better hope you turned back on when you need it. 

It is like anything in life, taking responsibility for our own actions. What others do is their business. But we seem to need rules and regulations to protect us from ourselves and this will never end.

Those that use those guards and equipment make sure you are also using dust masks, eye guards and hearing protection. Just keeping the fingers safe is not enough. Always read and understand the instructions that come with the tools. Use all safety guards that come with the tools. Use proper tool for job. If it does not feel right it probably is not. Work in a well lit area. Work when you are not tired or in a hurry. Use common sense. Work safe please. Now I am off my soap box.

Edited October 4, 2018 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[Sycamore67]

The statistics were for the CPSC (Consumer Products Safety Commission) and had nothing to do with Sawstop. The number of accidents is alarming.

Yes, the lawsuit was about money.  Someone spent a lot of time and money to develop the technology and had a patent.  I believe that we should protect intellectual property.  I have been involved and have my name on a number of patents.  My company routinely used other companies who infringed on them.  Is it wrong to protect a patent?  When I dreamed up something and got a patent, you bet I wanted it protected.  

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

2 hours ago, Sycamore67 said:

The statistics were for the CPSC (Consumer Products Safety Commission) and had nothing to do with Sawstop. The number of accidents is alarming.

Yes, the lawsuit was about money.  Someone spent a lot of time and money to develop the technology and had a patent.  I believe that we should protect intellectual property.  I have been involved and have my name on a number of patents.  My company routinely used other companies who infringed on them.  Is it wrong to protect a patent?  When I dreamed up something and got a patent, you bet I wanted it protected.  

I know where those numbers came from because you see them mentioned all the time. As I said the tablesaw gets mentioned because more people own that tool than most others. Radial arm saws at one time was up there in that catagory because they were a popular tool at one time.

I won't get into the patent thing but will say this, something else went down with Bosch that is not public. Many times people have inventions and patent things and then someone comes along and tweaks something or changes one little thing and the next thing you know it is on the market and sold right next to the original. We see this all the time. Bosch came out with a better mousetrap that did not destroy the blade as sawstop saw does and the power actuator was a simple air cartridge that you can change out in a couple seconds. Totally different than what sawstop does. I have no idea what sawstop patent is but if it is possible to patent an idea I guess they did because that is all I see they had in common. The ability to sense skin and cause the blade to disappear in a blink of an eye. I wish Bosch would have fought it harder because they do have a better and cheaper mousetrap that would or could be incorporated less expensive on all saws and probably used on more tools also. Maybe when their patent runs out we will see more companies  get into the technology category . As I said sawstop wanted the government to pass a law requiring all saws to incorporate their safety measure and they would have been king. That did not go as planned and that is why they make their own saw that is the most expensive on the market. 

Do not get me wrong the idea does work and is a great feature but Bosches was better because of the fact the blade is not destroyed when activated. That can be a huge expense. I know you can not put a $$ value on safety but manufacturers do. There are so many things in a shop that can hurt you. Again common sense reigns supreme and i think we are losing this gene. Just look at the drivers on the road today. Car manufacturers are also trying to protect us from ourselves. Accidents do happen be safe. 

[Sycamore67]

 

"I won't get into the patent thing but will say this, something else went down with Bosch that is not public."  JTTHECLOCKMAN

I am very interested and perhaps you can tell us what happened that was not public since you seem to know.  I thought that the records were public but it sounds like I am wrong.  

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

36 minutes ago, Sycamore67 said:

 

"I won't get into the patent thing but will say this, something else went down with Bosch that is not public."  JTTHECLOCKMAN

I am very interested and perhaps you can tell us what happened that was not public since you seem to know.  I thought that the records were public but it sounds like I am wrong.  

No I do not know that is why I said there must have been something that was not made public. Believe me there are real woodworking forums that talk about this stuff all the time and this was hashed when it happened. No one seems to know why Bosch simply went away quietly. If you want to read all about this here is the link. There is also a link showing Bosch braking system. As I said there is not enough info about what happened exactly. http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/bosch-sawstop-embroiled-in-reaxx-table-saw-lawsuit/

[Sycamore67]

The Sawstop issue is completely different than the original topic.  Bottom line is that the Sawstop is a well made solid saw with a safety feature.  If you want one buy it and if you hate it, buy something different.  I could care less.

I do care when people on a forum start talking about guards and riving knives and make comments about it maybe safer to not use them and how you can be safe without them. 

I brought this up because I want people to hear the other side.  It is your fingers and hands and how you protect them is up to you.  But, just hope that you are not one of the about 38,000 people a year that visit the emergency room.  I asked my hand surgeon if he had experienced table saw injuries.  His response was that he had seen too many.

[new2woodwrk]

On 10/3/2018 at 9:31 AM, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Not sure what you mean in that statement about not 100%. It is always a good idea to check that the blade is 90 degrees to the table top and the easiest way to do this is use a draftsman square. I have several of different size and angles and I rely on those alot for accuracy. Just make sure any time you check for blade tilt that the square is resting on the plate of the saw blade and not on a tooth. Also it is laying flat on the table and not on the throat plate which may be set a few fractions below the table and may not be level on all 4 corners. 

A fence should be dialed in on both the front and back edge to the blade and not the miter slots. As I mentioned I keep the back of my fence canted away from the back of the blade about the thickness of a dollar bill folded in half. Works for me. I then have to take this in consideration if I flip the fence to other side or else the wood will now be pinched on the back side of the blade and that is never good. 

Thanks @JTTHECLOCKMAN

I have squared the blade as best I can - it is 90 degrees to table top

However, there is still an off cut as mentioned that I've not been able to reduce or remove.

I've posted this in other wood working forums and for the type of word I do, this is an acceptable offset allowance