The Day Has Finally Come

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Well it was a good run for sure. I have owned my Hawk scrollsaws (220 and 226) for over 20 years and the only problem I ever had was the flip lever in front for tensioning wore out. Replaced very easily. My saws use the square block blade holders and it was the first year they went to them after the barrels. So whatever year that was I am not sure. One day I looked for my old receipts for those saws but came up empty. Thought I had put them with the instruction booklet but was proven wrong. 

Anyway before I call the company who I have not dealt with new owners so that will be a first and me diving in and taking things apart I thought I would throw the question out here in case someone has run into this problem before and points me in the right direction. I will give as much info as I need or at least can see. The problem is blade flutter or at least that is what I am calling it. I have been working the saws pretty hard the past 2 months and started noticing this problem just yesterday. I have cut the Navy Plaque similar to what Dick has shown in the bragging section http://www.scrollsawvillage.com/forums/topic/30654-navy-plaque/ Had done one already about 5 days ago. Had no problems and cut very well. But started another yesterday and now the blade is jumping all around and can not control it to make those fine turns and even straight lines. I tried real hard to steer the blade and keep it cutting but had to give up after I almost ruined the piece. 

Here is what I looked at. First I have 2 saws as I mentioned and it is the 220 that is acting up so will switch to the 226 till I fix this. I have something to compare to which makes things easier. I checked the blade for straight 90 degree to table travel and used a machinest square and that is dead on. Checked both saws for this. I switched blade a couple times thinking maybe a bad batch but the 226 they travel perfect up and down. In the 220 you can see a slight flutter side to side as it travels up and down. I know the first thought is maybe the setscrews are out of alignment, but if that were the case the blade would show out when the square was used. This does not. I check for play in the arm and motor mount and there is none and everything is tight. I looked for and cleaned for dirt in clamps and under table in case a small piece got stuck in armor something but that is not the case. Have changed lower blade clamp for I have several and that did not fix it. This was not a gradual thing. It was a 2 projects ago problem. Noticed it on another clock pattern I was working on but when I switched to the Navy plaque is when it really showed up. 

OK who can help me and if there are questions I will answer. Thanks. If I have to I will call next week to see what they say. If it is a bearing problem not sure how easy to replace and which ones to replace. 

[Sycamore67]

Could you describe the flutter a bit more.  Is it side to side, front to back?

Did you check for squareness at both extremes of arm travel....ie up and down.

Another thing might be to check the blade where it come through the table.  Check position side to side and front to back with the arm all the way up, down and in between. Does it stay the same or move around.

Given that you find no play in the arm or motor, maybe something is bent or out of alignment.

Lastly, is the flutter caused by vibration and not due to some kind of alignment issue.

Good Luck

[kmmcrafts]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing if this changes in the up / down stroke at all.. If the set screws have moved.. the blade can still be square in one of the other position at the table level.. I once had this sort of issue.. and it turned out to be the blade was off when the arms were raised all the way up.. turned out to be the lower set screw had moved lightly.. but the saw running the blade would look blurry so to speak.. 

If the blade is square in both up and down position..  and still doing this.. it could actually be bearing or thrust washers

Also that back wedge gets worn and sill change the tension of the blade during the stroke and really only shows up when the saw is running.. I've sharpened my wedge using some sandpaper and a flat surface.. BUT.. you can only do that so many times before the arm where that wedge rides needs to be re-machined.. 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

OK to answer a few questions. Kevin you probably used a better word to describe the flutter "BLURRY" I rarely ever touch that back lever wedge. Only when I use small jewelers blades The tension on the blade is dead on Blade sits in top clamp as always I tried to nip a fraction off a blade to add even more tension without changing any settings but that did nothing so I am sure about tension. Now when I did the square test I had the arm all the way up and this gives me a look at alot more blade than if it was lower. I will try in lower position but will need a small square which I do have. When the saw is running and looking at the blade it is blurry as opposed to a straight line which it use to be and is on my 226. AS I said I have an advantage to compare side by side. My concern is side to side not front to back.  The most logical answer is not enough tension and the blade will flutter but this is definetly not the case here.

No vibration is evident. Nothing has moved as I use it. I will take a block of wood and paint it white and place behind the blade and move the arm up and down and watch to see if the blade favors one side or other as it goes through motion. It should travel in a straight line.  I may take a washer and insert in the top clamp to tighten that play up and readjust lower blade holder. Maybe that has worn some with all the pierce cutting I do on that saw. It seems to have the same play as the 226 but we could be talking ever so slight measurements. I use red loctite on set screws when I get them set exactly so doubt they moved. I did change out the lower clamp and that did not fix the problem. I will take a closer look at top clamp. 

To be continued.

[OCtoolguy]

I don't have a Hawk but to me what you are describing sounds like what others have suggested. Try going in and re-adjusting the blade clamp anchor screws. The ones that the blade butts up against when you clamp the blade with the clamp screws. It sounds like one of them, or possibly both of them have moved. I don't know how others do it but, I have a shirt pocket steel ruler. I back the anchor screws out far enough that I can put that ruler in and run the clamp screws up to it so it is clamped in place. I then run the anchor screws in until they touch the back side of the ruler. Once I've done that, I back the clamp screw out about a half turn. That will release the rule. Then run the anchor screw in a half turn. Once I've done that, I put a blade in and check for square. If it needs to be adjusted one way or the other at least you have established a starting point. By doing it this way, you should also be able to see how much difference there is between the upper and lower arms. Now, keep in mind that I'm a novice at this and I might be all wet but so far, this has worked for me on both my Dewalt and Excalibur saws. I know that the Hawks have a different system but it should still be somewhat the same. I hope this works out for you JT.

 

[kmmcrafts]

If you used Red loc-tite.. I doubt the set screws moved.. Red is for permanent or for large bolts.. I use the blue which is for a tight hold but will move with tools but not vibrate out etc.. 

I'll be curious what you find out though.. so many variables of what could cause this from worn slots where the lower blade holder sits.. to roll pins that holds the upper clamp to the arm or even the bearings at the back of the saw... Also can be a bad bearing in the connecting rod ( my 226 did this) .. that goes from the motor to the lower arm.. I took the bolt out of the arm and found that upper end bearing was dry of grease and stiff moving.. funny how that little bit of drag caused that blade to get that blur look.. 

Good luck and let us know what you find..    

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Kevin I used the red because back then it was all I had and really did not know the difference between the 4 different colors that loctite offers. But do now and will use blue from now on.

 

Well I did some investigating today and here is what I found. First I put a block of wood behind the blade and turned on and I drew a straight line down Placed behind the blade and watched the blade flutter. I could see this with the naked eye but with the block of wood really shows up. So I went to the 226 and did the same thing. I have not used that saw all year this year so had to clean the table top off as I used for blade storage and small wood pieces that you hate to throw out. We all have those. Put the block behind that blade and it was as true as can be. Dead on. So I took the blade out of the 220 with the bottom holder and switched to the 226. Well the flutter showed up now on the 226. I put the 226 holder on the 220 and sure enough the flutter was gone.

Now I had mentioned earlier I switched the blade clamp on the 220 when it all started. I had 2 that I constantly use for that saw. I have 2 that I leave with the 226. So I figured it has to be the blade clamps but what could it be. Well I compared the 2 bad ones with the 2 good ones and what I found was the roll pins have distorted ever so slightly from constantly sliding in and out of the bottom clamp. But what I think the real damage came from is when you insert a new blade and you use the hole on the upper arm that is designed to hold the clamp steady as you tighten. Well I believe all this time the constant torque put on that roll pin caused it to deflect and bend ever so slightly. And being I constantly change those 2 clamps because I like to preload one when I really get into scrolling production wise. That is why they both are bad. 

So the outcome is I am using the 2 clamps from the 226 and I will order a couple new clamps along with a couple more quick release levers for future use.  Yesterday I could not even get close to a small piece or it would just jump at it and cut it off. Or we all know how to plane with the edge of a blade, well I could not dare do that. Had a couple mishaps that I was able to cover up but put a halt to the sawing because that Navy Plaque has so many delicate cuts. Today finished cutting it with no problem. Huge difference. Chalk this one up to the knowledge bank. I probably could just get some roll pins and push those out. May ask them if they have those too. Thanks everyone for the help. I am back in business. 

[OCtoolguy]

20 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Kevin I used the red because back then it was all I had and really did not know the difference between the 4 different colors that loctite offers. But do now and will use blue from now on.

 

Well I did some investigating today and here is what I found. First I put a block of wood behind the blade and turned on and I drew a straight line down Placed behind the blade and watched the blade flutter. I could see this with the naked eye but with the block of wood really shows up. So I went to the 226 and did the same thing. I have not used that saw all year this year so had to clean the table top off as I used for blade storage and small wood pieces that you hate to throw out. We all have those. Put the block behind that blade and it was as true as can be. Dead on. So I took the blade out of the 220 with the bottom holder and switched to the 226. Well the flutter showed up now on the 226. I put the 226 holder on the 220 and sure enough the flutter was gone.

Now I had mentioned earlier I switched the blade clamp on the 220 when it all started. I had 2 that I constantly use for that saw. I have 2 that I leave with the 226. So I figured it has to be the blade clamps but what could it be. Well I compared the 2 bad ones with the 2 good ones and what I found was the roll pins have distorted ever so slightly from constantly sliding in and out of the bottom clamp. But what I think the real damage came from is when you insert a new blade and you use the hole on the upper arm that is designed to hold the clamp steady as you tighten. Well I believe all this time the constant torque put on that roll pin caused it to deflect and bend ever so slightly. And being I constantly change those 2 clamps because I like to preload one when I really get into scrolling production wise. That is why they both are bad. 

So the outcome is I am using the 2 clamps from the 226 and I will order a couple new clamps along with a couple more quick release levers for future use.  Yesterday I could not even get close to a small piece or it would just jump at it and cut it off. Or we all know how to plane with the edge of a blade, well I could not dare do that. Had a couple mishaps that I was able to cover up but put a halt to the sawing because that Navy Plaque has so many delicate cuts. Today finished cutting it with no problem. Huge difference. Chalk this one up to the knowledge bank. I probably could just get some roll pins and push those out. May ask them if they have those too. Thanks everyone for the help. I am back in business. 

Great news JT. And a master sleuth you are. Since I don't have a Hawk, what you are saying is a total mystery to me. But, sometime down the road in the future, I might own a Hawk and I will have this excellent knowledge to fall back on. I would have to think that you would be able to replace just the roll pins unless the holes they go in are elongated. I hate roll pins. Why not use a good old hardened bolt/screw? In fact, why not see if you can do that? Just a suggestion.

 

[Rockytime]

Thanks John. I also have a 220 Hawk. I do not have that problem but will store that information for future possible use.

[OCtoolguy]

36 minutes ago, Rockytime said:

Thanks John. I also have a 220 Hawk. I do not have that problem but will store that information for future possible use.

I just sat and watched the video on the Bushton site that goes into great detail on how to use the lastest of the 220 and 226 Ultra saws. I see now how the lower blade holder works. I think I understand what JT is having trouble with. I think there should be a better way of holding those blade holders besides putting the end of the pins in a hole. Maybe a box or flat end on the clamp similar to what the Hegner uses would be better. JMHO>

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

35 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

I just sat and watched the video on the Bushton site that goes into great detail on how to use the lastest of the 220 and 226 Ultra saws. I see now how the lower blade holder works. I think I understand what JT is having trouble with. I think there should be a better way of holding those blade holders besides putting the end of the pins in a hole. Maybe a box or flat end on the clamp similar to what the Hegner uses would be better. JMHO>

 

The latest generation of Hawks the G4 has different blade holders. Now that I know this can be a problem I know what to look for if this happens again. I had these clamps for a long time so no big deal getting new ones. It is actually very easy to change blades so I have no problem with this system. Just never would have guessed of this problem but as I said I was lucky to have another sitting next to each other to compare. Not so good for those that may run into this problem and not have this situation. Hopefully this info can now be helpful and referenced in case it comes up again. 

[kmmcrafts]

On 10/5/2018 at 9:35 PM, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Kevin I used the red because back then it was all I had and really did not know the difference between the 4 different colors that loctite offers. But do now and will use blue from now on.

 

Well I did some investigating today and here is what I found. First I put a block of wood behind the blade and turned on and I drew a straight line down Placed behind the blade and watched the blade flutter. I could see this with the naked eye but with the block of wood really shows up. So I went to the 226 and did the same thing. I have not used that saw all year this year so had to clean the table top off as I used for blade storage and small wood pieces that you hate to throw out. We all have those. Put the block behind that blade and it was as true as can be. Dead on. So I took the blade out of the 220 with the bottom holder and switched to the 226. Well the flutter showed up now on the 226. I put the 226 holder on the 220 and sure enough the flutter was gone.

Now I had mentioned earlier I switched the blade clamp on the 220 when it all started. I had 2 that I constantly use for that saw. I have 2 that I leave with the 226. So I figured it has to be the blade clamps but what could it be. Well I compared the 2 bad ones with the 2 good ones and what I found was the roll pins have distorted ever so slightly from constantly sliding in and out of the bottom clamp. But what I think the real damage came from is when you insert a new blade and you use the hole on the upper arm that is designed to hold the clamp steady as you tighten. Well I believe all this time the constant torque put on that roll pin caused it to deflect and bend ever so slightly. And being I constantly change those 2 clamps because I like to preload one when I really get into scrolling production wise. That is why they both are bad. 

So the outcome is I am using the 2 clamps from the 226 and I will order a couple new clamps along with a couple more quick release levers for future use.  Yesterday I could not even get close to a small piece or it would just jump at it and cut it off. Or we all know how to plane with the edge of a blade, well I could not dare do that. Had a couple mishaps that I was able to cover up but put a halt to the sawing because that Navy Plaque has so many delicate cuts. Today finished cutting it with no problem. Huge difference. Chalk this one up to the knowledge bank. I probably could just get some roll pins and push those out. May ask them if they have those too. Thanks everyone for the help. I am back in business. 

JT, glad you got it figured out. I never would have thought of those roll pins. My newer Hawk has that same style clamps so I’ll have to keep this in mind if I ever run into this. 

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

JT, glad you got it figured out. I never would have thought of those roll pins. My newer Hawk has that same style clamps so I’ll have to keep this in mind if I ever run into this. 

 

This is the first time I ever seen it mentioned in all the forums over the years. It was just a matter of luck I guess. As soon as I changed those clamps in question all has been well and I have completed about 5 more projects since. When I go to order the spare I may just talk to the rep over there and see if they encountered this before. I could actually see why it happens though because of the stress put on that pin when you tighten the blade. No getting around it. Maybe I am a little strong about tightening but I feel it needs what it needs. You can actually see the deformation if you look closely. Those pins are split so they will give some in order to get in the holes but that can work against them in this case because they are used as a pivot point on the arm. Anyway if anyone has an RBI file that away for a possible problem. As I said I had these for quite some time. I had replaced them over the years once before but for just getting extras. Happy scrolling.

[kmmcrafts]

21 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

This is the first time I ever seen it mentioned in all the forums over the years. It was just a matter of luck I guess. As soon as I changed those clamps in question all has been well and I have completed about 5 more projects since. When I go to order the spare I may just talk to the rep over there and see if they encountered this before. I could actually see why it happens though because of the stress put on that pin when you tighten the blade. No getting around it. Maybe I am a little strong about tightening but I feel it needs what it needs. You can actually see the deformation if you look closely. Those pins are split so they will give some in order to get in the holes but that can work against them in this case because they are used as a pivot point on the arm. Anyway if anyone has an RBI file that away for a possible problem. As I said I had these for quite some time. I had replaced them over the years once before but for just getting extras. Happy scrolling.

Doesn't seem like there should all that much stress on those roll pins but maybe I'm wrong... or maybe your saw is different than mine.. But my clamps roll pin goes into the hole and the edge of it is notched and rest on the top of the accessory arm.. seems like that torque would be more so on that notched out area and the accessory arm.. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by kmmcrafts

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

3 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

Doesn't seem like there should all that much stress on those roll pins but maybe I'm wrong... or maybe your saw is different than mine.. But my clamps roll pin goes into the hole and the edge of it is notched and rest on the top of the accessory arm.. seems like that torque would be more so on that notched out area and the accessory arm.. 

No the pressure is up against the roll pin because without that ,that notch does nothing. Tighten or loosen that pin is in play big time. If that pin is rolled with the slit straight up and down that is when it will have a tendency to bend. Look at it closely and you will see what I mean. If you took that pin out there would be no way to tighten the clamp. So the pin is actually the lever That notch has become worn too over the years. Newer ones fit more snug. Probably a combination of the wearing of the notched area puts more pressure on the pin. The arm has no wear on it. They do work in tandem so That definitely is the problem. I may revisit this at a latter time and take some photos. Right now I am pressured to get many projects done in a month and a half. 

[Rockytime]

This has to do with the 220 Hawk lower clamps. Out of curiosity I checked my three clamps. One has a roll pin. The other two have dowel pins. I'm guessing the one with the roll pin is the original that came with the saw. The other two are most likely the new ones I ordered.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 hour ago, Rockytime said:

This has to do with the 220 Hawk lower clamps. Out of curiosity I checked my three clamps. One has a roll pin. The other two have dowel pins. I'm guessing the one with the roll pin is the original that came with the saw. The other two are most likely the new ones I ordered.

Maybe this has been an issue and they made a change. I believe if that roll pin is turned just the right way when you apply pressure the slit will deviate some. Over time it could bend. Being solid will give more mass so it may not deform. Saw has been running great since I made the change.

Edited October 11, 2018 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

I think mine are actually dowel pins.. I call them roll pins as that was what they remind me of.. but they are not really roll pins with the slot cut down through the pin.. mine are solid I'm pretty sure.... 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

57 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I think mine are actually dowel pins.. I call them roll pins as that was what they remind me of.. but they are not really roll pins with the slot cut down through the pin.. mine are solid I'm pretty sure.... 

The roll pins are hollow as you well know so less mass as opposed to solid pins. All the ones I have are roll pins and just pressed in. In fact I moved a couple to get them centered more so equal force applied. The solid ones maybe manufactured all one piece and not a dowel that moves.