How steep of a bevel should I cut?

[SCROLLSAW703]

Howdy folks,

I am beginning a project for a ranch here locally that is going to end up having a Hereford Bull Head cut from white oak, along with their brand cut in white oak, and then the both of them inlaid in walnut.That's my plan, anyway. Allowin' of course that my ol' health will let me accomplish this feat.

I have done quite a bit of inlay work, but have never cut anything at an angle for the inlay. I have always cut things tight enough I had to press them in place, then use fine sawdust to fill in any small gaps.

This one is goin' to be in a 20" x 20" plaque. I have started drillin' entry holes in the designs in the bull's head. I haven't even started on the brand yet. Health limitations and community involvement have slowed me down. 

Both the white oak and walnut is planed to 1/2'' thick, sanded to finish sand grade, and ready to cut. I reckon my questions are, seein's how I've never worked inlays with angles, how much of an angle do I need to cut at to get the bull's head and the brand to set back in the walnut at face level? Say 3* or 4*? Or is that to steep? And at a right hand angle, I am guessing.

I am makin' this plaque for this Ranch for their 100th year in the cattle business. Across the top, I plan on cuttin' the name of their Ranch in Western Lettering about 3/4'' tall in a partial circle shape, kinda like the sign at the driveway of the ranch.

But I'd like the bull's head and brand to set face level of the plaque when I get them cut. This is one of two parts of scrollin' I ain't the best at. Compound cuttin' is the other one. I gotta perfect the bevel cuttin' first.

Any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Sawdust703(Brad)

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

My suggestion is to do practice runs in some scrap wood that you are using. I say this because every wood cuts differently. Every blade cuts differently. Practice to see what way is best to cut with the table tilted one way or other. Practice which way is better for you to cut right or left. All this comes into play and practice cutting the stacking of dissimilar woods. Again just my thoughts. 

[Tomanydogs]

Brad I have no advice for you. But, I cannot wait to see your project finished it sounds very beautiful. 

[kmmcrafts]

Determining what way to angle the table will depend on what direction you want to cut in.. As JT said.. play around with some scraps to get the corrected angles.. Another issue I've had with bevel inlay ( i've only done this a couple times so I'm limited on experience ) is the wood cupping before I got my project finished and glued.. so then the piece didn't want to fit too well.. so keep that in mind as you proceed.. Not sure if one was to seal up the wood would prevent the cupping or not.. 

When I did my last inlay.. I gave myself some thickness room with the intent to run the inlayed board through the planer afterwards if needed.. A drum sander would be a better fit for doing that... but I don't have one of those yet..LOL

I'm kind of thinking with a 1/2 board and a number 5 blade would need to start your angle at about 3* for a test cut and adjust from there... but I could be wrong.. just an uneducated guess, LOL 

Like to see this once you get it done... even some progress photos would be cool.. 

Good luck and have fun with it..

[Jim Finn]

I do LOTS of inlay! 

I use 3/8" wood and cut at a 2 Degrees. 

With 1/2" I would guess one degree.

As suggested,  Make trial cuts on 1/2" stock and find the required angle

[SCROLLSAW703]

Howdy folks,

Thank you for the advice and help! JT, I greatly appreciate your thoughts and input, Sir. My thinking was right along your input. Mr. Kevin, you voiced concerns directly crossed my mind as well. Two things I feel like I have in my favor is the walnut and white oak is extremely dry and has been in my shop for some time. I am not as concerned about cupping Kevin, as I am cutting to deep of a bevel and not being able to get the right fit. 

I do have have a drum sander. Not a monster sander, but it's a 10'' sander. Big enough for my meager little shop, and does what I purchased it for. It's a Jet sander. I purchased it from a friend of mine here locally who bought it new, and he builds custom furniture. He had big ideas for the sander, but didn't use it like he thought he would, so he sold it to me for a good price.Now I have NO IDEA where to look on Amazon for the sandin' rolls, paper, or whatever it's called for it. he told me his bride always got it off Amazon pretty cheap, but never told me where to look for it.:( Luckily, he had a few different grits with it when I bought the sander. It has served me well. I sometimes use it more than my planer for some things.

Mr. Jim, Thank you for your input, sir. My intentions are to cut to the right, using 1/2'' thick wood. There are some perty intricate figures to cut out in the bull's face, but then I'll have cut the outside angle when I cut him out of the piece of white oak. Then I'll Have to set the pattern up to cut the pattern out of the walnut with approximately the same angle of cut to accept the bull head. Am I thinking along the right lines, Mr. Jim? I'd appreciate your thoughts and input, Sir. Yours as well, Mr. JT. 

Thanks again, fellas for the help. I'll look in after bit to see what you've come up with.

Sawdust703(Brad)

[Rockytime]

Brad, you can do it! I have lots of confidence in you.

[SCROLLSAW703]

Howdy Mr. Les, 

Thank you Sir! I appreciate your confidence, my friend. I am sure I can accomplish this feat, too, but it's good to have advice from those that have more experience with this than myself. I have done quite a bit of inlay work, but I always cut things tight enough so I can press them in place and then sand things out after that. 

But I want this to look tight and smooth. I am planning to finish it with shellac and Watco clear coat. What do ya think about that?

Sawdust703(Brad)

[Rockytime]

I think it will look great Brad. I sounds like a terrific project!

[Jim Finn]

15 hours ago, SCROLLSAW703 said:

There are some pretty intricate figures to cut out in the bull's face, but then I'll have cut the outside angle when I cut him out of the piece of white oak. Then I'll Have to set the pattern up to cut the pattern out of the walnut with approximately the same angle of cut to accept the bull head

I  stack the two pieces of wood, with the one to be inlaid on the underside.  Tape them together, or hot glue them, and cut both at the same time.  This is called "double bevel inlay"

[Bill WIlson]

I have very little experience with double bevel inlay, but what I do know is that 1/2 of a degree can mean the difference between a great fit and firewood.  Also use the exact same blade on the test piece as the finished piece.  A different size, even a different style blade can make a difference.  The tolerances are just that sensitive.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

2 minutes ago, Bill WIlson said:

I have very little experience with double bevel inlay, but what I do know is that 1/2 of a degree can mean the difference between a great fit and firewood.  Also use the exact same blade on the test piece as the finished piece.  A different size, even a different style blade can make a difference.  The tolerances are just that sensitive.

This is basically what I was saying and I agree with Bill. I also do the double bevel cutting style and can tell you even your sideward pressure can make a difference when cutting because what happens you start to overcompensate because the table is leaning and you are not used to it and want to try to straighten up but you should not and let the blade do the cutting and just steer the wood. I use doublesided tape to hold the pieces together. I do not do much of this any more but it does make for some nice projects. 

[OCtoolguy]

Another thing to take into consideration is where you drill your entry holes. You have to drill next to the cut line at the same angle as you are going to be cutting so that the drill bit enters in the waste area and comes out on the waste area of the lower piece. Otherwise your drill hole will be visible. There are videos on youtube on the subject of double bevel scrolling. I took a marquetry class or I wouldn't know what I was talking about. Really! LOL.

 

[kmmcrafts]

5 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

This is basically what I was saying and I agree with Bill. I also do the double bevel cutting style and can tell you even your sideward pressure can make a difference when cutting because what happens you start to overcompensate because the table is leaning and you are not used to it and want to try to straighten up but you should not and let the blade do the cutting and just steer the wood. I use doublesided tape to hold the pieces together. I do not do much of this any more but it does make for some nice projects. 

This is where the Excalibur saws come in and shine... I've done the double bevel years ago on my DeWalt.. having that table tilted even as minimal as it was... throws you off and just weird feeling.. I did my latest piece on my Excalibur... It was soo much nicer to use in doing those bevel cuts.. One big reason I do hang onto the Excalibur... 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

5 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

This is where the Excalibur saws come in and shine... I've done the double bevel years ago on my DeWalt.. having that table tilted even as minimal as it was... throws you off and just weird feeling.. I did my latest piece on my Excalibur... It was soo much nicer to use in doing those bevel cuts.. One big reason I do hang onto the Excalibur... 

I can see that Kevin. Do it a few times and it become second nature though. Like anything, practice is needed. Ray makes a very good point about drilling entry hole on the same angle as cutting or else the beginning of the cut will get all goobered up. Good point Ray.  

[OCtoolguy]

I have posted about this book before here on SSV but if you are truly interested in double bevel cutting, the best book on the subject is this one.

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Marquetry-Schiffer-Book-Woodworkers/dp/076430237X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542663174&sr=8-1&keywords=the+art+of+marquetry $14.99 on Amazon.

 

 

[kmmcrafts]

Do agree JT... a little practice goes a long way... I've done a total of 4 double bevel cuts in my 12 ish years of sawing... so I need more practice on a tilted table... will also say.. really didn't need to practice on my flat table of the Excalibur.. only practice was getting the correct angle to fit the piece right before actually cutting the project.. I hope to do more inlay work this next year.. It was a fun project to do... Angling the drill is something I've known about.. but I never did it.. I just used the smallest drill bit I had that the blade would fit through.. then drilled the hole in a spot where it would be hard to see.. also saved some sawdust if I needed to mix with glue it for a filler if I needed it.. which I didn't need.. 

[SCROLLSAW703]

Good Morning Gentlemen,

Wow!! 

Thank you for all the insight on this project! I greatly appreciate it!!! In my 25 years of scrolling, this is something I have never had a need to do much of, and if it was needed, I figured out a way around the bevel cutting to give the project a different look. 

I've got a community meetin' I have to be at momentarily. I will be back on after the meetin' because I'd like to discuss this further, if you fellers wouldn't mind. Thank you again so much for your thoughts, input, and time. 

Sawdust703(Brad)

[SCROLLSAW703]

Afternoon folks, 

I managed to get through the meeting in one piece. Sometimes the community meetings here can get kinda one sided at times, and it takes a firm hand to keep a handle on things.

So, on with the business at hand. I have done some reading on this, and have read some conflicting information. Some say a sharper angle, some say a shallow angle. So, I am in between what to do. I have watched a couple videos, as well. Near as I can figure, with a 1/2'' thick project, about a 2* or 3* angle is going to be sufficient, but I'm going to have to practice a little with it before I cut the project itself. 

I reckon my next concern is, should I use double sided tape on the bull's head to hold it to the walnut to cut it, like a stack cut, or would it be better to just make a duplicate copy of the bull's head and glue it place on the plaque and cut it that way?? The plaque itself is going to be 20'' x 20''. And I am going to inlay the brand in the walnut the same way. In my mind, I can't see as a stack cut type situation would be of any benefit, but I may be looking at this from the wrong side of the coin, too. 

Thank you for your thoughts and input. 

Sawdust703(Brad)

[OCtoolguy]

3 hours ago, SCROLLSAW703 said:

Afternoon folks, 

I managed to get through the meeting in one piece. Sometimes the community meetings here can get kinda one sided at times, and it takes a firm hand to keep a handle on things.

So, on with the business at hand. I have done some reading on this, and have read some conflicting information. Some say a sharper angle, some say a shallow angle. So, I am in between what to do. I have watched a couple videos, as well. Near as I can figure, with a 1/2'' thick project, about a 2* or 3* angle is going to be sufficient, but I'm going to have to practice a little with it before I cut the project itself. 

I reckon my next concern is, should I use double sided tape on the bull's head to hold it to the walnut to cut it, like a stack cut, or would it be better to just make a duplicate copy of the bull's head and glue it place on the plaque and cut it that way?? The plaque itself is going to be 20'' x 20''. And I am going to inlay the brand in the walnut the same way. In my mind, I can't see as a stack cut type situation would be of any benefit, but I may be looking at this from the wrong side of the coin, too. 

Thank you for your thoughts and input. 

Sawdust703(Brad)

Brad, looking at it from the marquetry side of things, you'll get the best fit if you stack cut the pattern. The bottom piece will be the waste side and the top piece should slide right down into the lower piece. For practice, just take a couple of pieces of scrap, tape them together and cut out a circle or a square or ???? It might take a couple of test cuts to determine the correct angle. Somewhere I saw a formula for that but I can't remember where. A lot of folks who do this often just make a couple of angled blocks and mark them for future table adjustments.

 

[SCROLLSAW703]

Howdy Mr. Ray,

Thank you Sir. I'll take a stab at it and get some practice with it. The more I keep thinkin' about it, that's the only true way that I can see to get the proper fit. I have studied other books I have, read, and watched other videos as well, and I don't see any other way. I think I've  got setting the drill bit angle and blade angle figured out, it's just a matter of figuring out the correct angle now.

Thank you for your thoughts and input, Mr. Ray. I appreciate it, Sir!

Sawdust703(Brad)

[OCtoolguy]

33 minutes ago, SCROLLSAW703 said:

Howdy Mr. Ray,

Thank you Sir. I'll take a stab at it and get some practice with it. The more I keep thinkin' about it, that's the only true way that I can see to get the proper fit. I have studied other books I have, read, and watched other videos as well, and I don't see any other way. I think I've  got setting the drill bit angle and blade angle figured out, it's just a matter of figuring out the correct angle now.

Thank you for your thoughts and input, Mr. Ray. I appreciate it, Sir!

Sawdust703(Brad)

I got to thinking about this Brad and it might be easier to practice using some thin wood. Maybe a couple pieces of BB plywood or something like that. Just to get the idea fixed in your mind. I know, at least I think I know, the thinner the wood, the more table angle you need. So with that said, if you can get the idea worked out then it's just a matter of figuring out what angle you will need for 1/2". I'm thinking something in the area of 2 degrees.

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

4 hours ago, octoolguy said:

I got to thinking about this Brad and it might be easier to practice using some thin wood. Maybe a couple pieces of BB plywood or something like that. Just to get the idea fixed in your mind. I know, at least I think I know, the thinner the wood, the more table angle you need. So with that said, if you can get the idea worked out then it's just a matter of figuring out what angle you will need for 1/2". I'm thinking something in the area of 2 degrees.

 

Sorry wrong post

Edited November 21, 2018 by JTTHECLOCKMAN