I need some advice on finishing quickly!!!

[OCtoolguy]

I am posting a pic of the finishes that I have and this is where I get confused. Can anybody shed light on how to use these finishes together or should they not be used together? The wood I'm using is maple top and bottom and red oak in between. Seven layers of red oak. Maple top and bottom. I have sanded and glued them all together so any staining is not an option. I didn't want to stain anyway. I want a clear finish that will bring out the grain of both woods. They are very nice grain. I have Watco Danish oil in clear, Fromby's Tung oil and Zinnser's Shellac in clear. I put the other two cans in just for the sake of whether they could/should be used in any combination with the others. Sorry for being so ignorant on this subject but it is truly my weak point. Thanks for any and all suggestions. If anyone feels that I should get some boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits, I'd love to hear about that too.

 

[WayneMahler]

What is your project for Ray ?

[OCtoolguy]

6 minutes ago, WayneMahler said:

What is your project for Ray ?

I'm making a couple of the baskets that I have shown for Christmas gifts. These pics are of the first one I made out of red oak top and bottom and poplar in between. If I recall, I just used the spray shellac but I can't remember. I saved all the scraps from cutting the new ones so I can test them but I thought I would lean on you experts for some advice. Thanks Wayne.

 

 

[Sycamore67]

Of those, Shellac is probably the fastest as it is alcohol based. I think it kind has a plastic look.

Something like Watco brings out the grain best IMHO.

It is unfortunate that people end up rushing the finishing and prefer a quick job rather than a better one. A good finishing job brings out the best in a project but takes time.  Too many times the major consideration is how quick instead of how well.

[dgman]

The Danish oil should work well for you Ray. Get yourself a baking pan or dish and pour the Danish oil in. Soak your basket in the oil using a chip brush to wet what isn’t soaking. After about five minutes, remove the item from the oil and wipe off the residual oil with a clean dust free rag or paper towel. Make sure you use some rubber gloves to do this. Wipe off all the oil and let it dry. Pour the oil back into the can. After the oil is dry, you can spray whatever topcoat you like. 

Because of the cost of the Danish oil, I mix my own oil. I start with a quart size glass mason jar. If your wife does any canning, it should be easy to find a jar. I fill it half with the boiled linseed oil and half with mineral spirits. The oil brings out the color and grain of the wood, and the mineral spirits thins the oil so it easily soaks around your project and allow the oil to dry in about 24 hours.

I pour the oil back into the jar for the next use. 

[OCtoolguy]

15 minutes ago, dgman said:

The Danish oil should work well for you Ray. Get yourself a baking pan or dish and pour the Danish oil in. Soak your basket in the oil using a chip brush to wet what isn’t soaking. After about five minutes, remove the item from the oil and wipe off the residual oil with a clean dust free rag or paper towel. Make sure you use some rubber gloves to do this. Wipe off all the oil and let it dry. Pour the oil back into the can. After the oil is dry, you can spray whatever topcoat you like. 

Because of the cost of the Danish oil, I mix my own oil. I start with a quart size glass mason jar. If your wife does any canning, it should be easy to find a jar. I fill it half with the boiled linseed oil and half with mineral spirits. The oil brings out the color and grain of the wood, and the mineral spirits thins the oil so it easily soaks around your project and allow the oil to dry in about 24 hours.

I pour the oil back into the jar for the next use. 

Dan, I don't have a pan deep enough or enough of the Watco oil to do what you say. Can I just brush it on? The can I have is almost full but I can get more if needed. I like the idea of the boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. I'll have to go buy a jar. Glass containers are a thing of the past around here. 

[JAC1961]

A comment that I'd like to make on danish oil is that you have to be careful using it on open grain woods like oak, ash, etc.  It will soak into the pores and then "ooze" back out.  This is no problem as long as you keep it wiped off.  If you just wipe it off once or twice and then ignore it while it dries, you can end up with spots of dried finish that are a pain to remove.  Don't ask how I know of these pitfalls.

[OCtoolguy]

What sort of confuses me is that when you read the directions on all the cans, they all say that they don't play well with other finishes. So, if you use tung oil, can you still use spray shellac? Or Watco oil/tung oil/ shellac? Or clear polyurethane with anything? I don't want to experiment and ruin what I have worked so hard on.

 

[JAC1961]

1 minute ago, octoolguy said:

What sort of confuses me is that when you read the directions on all the cans, they all say that they don't play well with other finishes. So, if you use tung oil, can you still use spray shellac? Or Watco oil/tung oil/ shellac? Or clear polyurethane with anything? I don't want to experiment and ruin what I have worked so hard on.

 

As long as it's good and dry, you can cover most finishes with shellac.  That's one thing it used for is providing a barrier layer different finishes.  From my experiences, poly goes over most oil finishes well, again as long as the first has cured.  If the first isn't cured well enough the top coat can alligator... show crinkles and wrinkles.  Poly and oil finishes share a lot of the same ingredients so they work well together.

[OCtoolguy]

@DGman. I just went online to Home Depot to check the price of mineral spirits. Well, once again California has got me/us. They seem to have banned it. So, what do I use in it's place to mix with BLO to make my own finishing oil?

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by octoolguy

[Bill WIlson]

First off Ray, I have to ask, why to you want to combine these products?  I try to keep my finishing methodology within a few general rules of thumb.  One is that simpler is usually better.  Don't add steps to your finishing schedule, unless they bring something useful to the party.

Next, you have to figure out what you want your finishing process to accomplish.  Do you want to add color?  Do you want grain enhancement? Do you want a protective finish?  What level of sheen do you want?  What application methods fit into your skill set?

Next you choose your finishing product(s) based on the answers to the above questions.  Only use what is needed to accomplish the goal.  To put it another way, there isn't much benefit to applying a Danish oil, then topcoating it with oil based polyurethane, or even shellac, for that matter.  Why?  Because if you are using Danish oil to bring out the grain, you can get pretty much the same results with shellac or oil based polyurethane, so the Danish oil step really doesn't add much benefit and just complicates things.

Now, if you were topcoating with lacquer or a water borne polyurethane, then that's a whole different kettle of fish.  In that case, I might use BLO or Danish oil to pop the grain (I usually only do this with woods like cherry, walnut or mahogany.  It won't do much for the red oak and maple), then apply a barrier coat of shellac Seal Coat.  This prevents any adhesion problems between the oil and the lacquer or water-borne top coat. 

If you want a film finish, with a little bit of gloss, then I would just spray the whole thing with shellac and forget all the other stuff. 

If you want less sheen, then the Danish oil is probably the simplest option.  You don't have to have a pan deep enough to completely immerse the basket.  You just need something to keep the fun-off contained.  Pour a little in a pan, put the basket in, then dip a narrow brush or foam brush and start slathering the Danish oil all over the basket.  Don't worry about getting it nice & even.  Danish oil is meant to soak into the wood, not lay in it like paint, so you want to slop it on heavy, working it into all the nooks & crannies.  Pick it up and let the excess drip off.  Set it on some paper towels and let it drip off some more, then start wiping down where you see excess.  Maybe use a little blast of compressed air to blow it out of corners.  Bottom line is you want full coverage and you aren't building a film finish, so getting it all even isn't really a concern.  You just want full coverage without a lot of excess.

This is probably long winded enough, but as a final point, I highly recommend a couple of books if you want to really up your game and take some of the mystery out of finishing. 

1.  Taunton's Complete Illustrated Guide to Finishing - by Jeff Jewitt

2.   Understanding Wood Finishing  - by Bob Flexner

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Ray I thought we walked this path before and you shown that same basket. I agree with alot of what Bill said. I will again probably repeating things but. The difference between Danish oil and BLO and mineral spirits is that Danish oil has drier in it along with Polyurethane. BLO does not. unless you add it. But when you do then driers come into play because the ingredients dry at different levels and times. Manufacturers have this stuff calculated so you are better to buy original. Many companies make Danish oil or the like and call it something different. The final look is exactly the same with the 2 except that with Danish oil there is more of a sheen because of the poly. I love the look and that is why I use it all the time. With BLO no sheen at all. Dull finish but will enhance the grains of wood and add a warm yellow color to woods. With light woods like maple that can be OK but if you want a clear finish than stay away from all oils. You want a waterbase product. But now you get into grain raising and that will be a pain when talking a project like you show. 

Spray shellac can be used but again no sheen unless you use many coats and to spray in all those nooks and crannies, that would not be my choice. 

Top coating. Either Danish oil or BLO the use of poly or lacquer can be used providing and this is big that it is completely dry and cured. Not just dried but cured. I love lacquer because it leaves wood looking like wood and not plastic filmed. Again I do not use shellac for a finish. I use it for a seal coat or a barrier coat betweens dissimilar finishes. 

Dipping is the easiest finish to apply and that is why I like Danish oil. Can not screw it up. Small container and brush on is all you need to do but make sure it gets in all nooks. I have Danish oil by gallons so I pour in a tub and dip real easy. Not sure what else to say. 

Here are some keepsake boxes I make that use that same technique of ring stacking and they were all dipped in Danish oil and I use all sorts of woods including maple and oak. Also some clocks with that design and yellow heart is used alot. People love the finish. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[Gonzo]

11 hours ago, Sycamore67 said:

 

It is unfortunate that people end up rushing the finishing and prefer a quick job rather than a better one. A good finishing job brings out the best in a project but takes time.  Too many times the major consideration is how quick instead of how well.

I couldn't agree more!

Edited December 14, 2018 by Gonzo

[rdv464]

Ray, what I have been doing lately I use the pre stain on my projects, let set for about 20 minutes give it a chan e to soak in good. Then wipe it down a little and then go with the Watco cover it good I use small brush or sponge brush let set for about 20 mins. or so then hit it again let that set for 15 mins then wipe off any excess.Let set and dry good for a couple days then spray with satin poly, let it dry good take piece of paper bag and wipe it down like you were sanding it very easy then give it a second coat of poly. That's how I do my projects. 

rdv

[flarud]

JT, after you apply your Danish Oil, do you spray any kind of protective coat on your projects?  The Danish Oil doesn't protect much does it?

Ray, not trying to hijack your thread.  

Thanks, Barry

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

55 minutes ago, flarud said:

JT, after you apply your Danish Oil, do you spray any kind of protective coat on your projects?  The Danish Oil doesn't protect much does it?

Ray, not trying to hijack your thread.  

Thanks, Barry

No I do not usually. Clocks do not get handled much and Danish oil has enough poly in to seal the wood so it is not needing protection above that. Now if I am looking for a glossier shine then I will spray lacquer. Either water base or nitro. 

I need to add something though I usually will polish the finished product if it is flat with Watco satin wood polish to give it even a nicer sheen. Those boxes and that type clocks of course I can not do that. Those just have Danish oil on them and they look great.

Basically what are you protecting from??  Top coating is just a look. Protection would be if used outdoors or if project is used in wet areas. Finger prints that is nothing to be concerned with in projects we do. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[Phantom Scroller]

10 hours ago, octoolguy said:

I'm making a couple of the baskets that I have shown for Christmas gifts. These pics are of the first one I made out of red oak top and bottom and poplar in between. If I recall, I just used the spray shellac but I can't remember. I saved all the scraps from cutting the new ones so I can test them but I thought I would lean on you experts for some advice. Thanks Wayne.

 

 

These are nice Ray I've only ever made them from ply and spray lacquered them they do sell well. Roly

[Jim McDonald]

13 hours ago, octoolguy said:

Dan, I don't have a pan deep enough or enough of the Watco oil to do what you say. Can I just brush it on? The can I have is almost full but I can get more if needed. I like the idea of the boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. I'll have to go buy a jar. Glass containers are a thing of the past around here. 

Ray, I have found Mason jars in Goodwill and other such stores.  That way you can buy them single.

[OCtoolguy]

14 hours ago, flarud said:

JT, after you apply your Danish Oil, do you spray any kind of protective coat on your projects?  The Danish Oil doesn't protect much does it?

Ray, not trying to hijack your thread.  

Thanks, Barry

No problem Barry. Whatever questions and answers come along are all going into my memory bank. Such as it is. Like JT said, we've been here before.

 

[OCtoolguy]

9 hours ago, Phantom Scroller said:

These are nice Ray I've only ever made them from ply and spray lacquered them they do sell well. Roly

I'm curious, what do you ask for them price wise? And, if you are making from the same pattern as me, do you give the pattern designer credit in some way?

 

[OCtoolguy]

6 hours ago, Jim McDonald said:

Ray, I have found Mason jars in Goodwill and other such stores.  That way you can buy them single.

Great idea. I never thought of that.

 

[OCtoolguy]

18 hours ago, Bill WIlson said:

First off Ray, I have to ask, why to you want to combine these products?  I try to keep my finishing methodology within a few general rules of thumb.  One is that simpler is usually better.  Don't add steps to your finishing schedule, unless they bring something useful to the party.

Next, you have to figure out what you want your finishing process to accomplish.  Do you want to add color?  Do you want grain enhancement? Do you want a protective finish?  What level of sheen do you want?  What application methods fit into your skill set?

Next you choose your finishing product(s) based on the answers to the above questions.  Only use what is needed to accomplish the goal.  To put it another way, there isn't much benefit to applying a Danish oil, then topcoating it with oil based polyurethane, or even shellac, for that matter.  Why?  Because if you are using Danish oil to bring out the grain, you can get pretty much the same results with shellac or oil based polyurethane, so the Danish oil step really doesn't add much benefit and just complicates things.

Now, if you were topcoating with lacquer or a water borne polyurethane, then that's a whole different kettle of fish.  In that case, I might use BLO or Danish oil to pop the grain (I usually only do this with woods like cherry, walnut or mahogany.  It won't do much for the red oak and maple), then apply a barrier coat of shellac Seal Coat.  This prevents any adhesion problems between the oil and the lacquer or water-borne top coat. 

If you want a film finish, with a little bit of gloss, then I would just spray the whole thing with shellac and forget all the other stuff. 

If you want less sheen, then the Danish oil is probably the simplest option.  You don't have to have a pan deep enough to completely immerse the basket.  You just need something to keep the fun-off contained.  Pour a little in a pan, put the basket in, then dip a narrow brush or foam brush and start slathering the Danish oil all over the basket.  Don't worry about getting it nice & even.  Danish oil is meant to soak into the wood, not lay in it like paint, so you want to slop it on heavy, working it into all the nooks & crannies.  Pick it up and let the excess drip off.  Set it on some paper towels and let it drip off some more, then start wiping down where you see excess.  Maybe use a little blast of compressed air to blow it out of corners.  Bottom line is you want full coverage and you aren't building a film finish, so getting it all even isn't really a concern.  You just want full coverage without a lot of excess.

This is probably long winded enough, but as a final point, I highly recommend a couple of books if you want to really up your game and take some of the mystery out of finishing. 

1.  Taunton's Complete Illustrated Guide to Finishing - by Jeff Jewitt

2.   Understanding Wood Finishing  - by Bob Flexner

Wow! Thanks Bill. All great info. To answer your question of what I am wanting in appearance, I don't want a high shine just a semi-shine or sheen I guess you might call it. The reason I asked about mixing is that all of them say not to use with other finishes. Not that I intended to. I just was curious as to whether they can be mixed. Thanks for your help. I'm going to order up one or both of those books too.

 

[OCtoolguy]

16 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Ray I thought we walked this path before and you shown that same basket. I agree with alot of what Bill said. I will again probably repeating things but. The difference between Danish oil and BLO and mineral spirits is that Danish oil has drier in it along with Polyurethane. BLO does not. unless you add it. But when you do then driers come into play because the ingredients dry at different levels and times. Manufacturers have this stuff calculated so you are better to buy original. Many companies make Danish oil or the like and call it something different. The final look is exactly the same with the 2 except that with Danish oil there is more of a sheen because of the poly. I love the look and that is why I use it all the time. With BLO no sheen at all. Dull finish but will enhance the grains of wood and add a warm yellow color to woods. With light woods like maple that can be OK but if you want a clear finish than stay away from all oils. You want a waterbase product. But now you get into grain raising and that will be a pain when talking a project like you show. 

Spray shellac can be used but again no sheen unless you use many coats and to spray in all those nooks and crannies, that would not be my choice. 

Top coating. Either Danish oil or BLO the use of poly or lacquer can be used providing and this is big that it is completely dry and cured. Not just dried but cured. I love lacquer because it leaves wood looking like wood and not plastic filmed. Again I do not use shellac for a finish. I use it for a seal coat or a barrier coat betweens dissimilar finishes. 

Dipping is the easiest finish to apply and that is why I like Danish oil. Can not screw it up. Small container and brush on is all you need to do but make sure it gets in all nooks. I have Danish oil by gallons so I pour in a tub and dip real easy. Not sure what else to say. 

Here are some keepsake boxes I make that use that same technique of ring stacking and they were all dipped in Danish oil and I use all sorts of woods including maple and oak. Also some clocks with that design and yellow heart is used alot. People love the finish. 

First let me say this JT, those are beautiful. I will take everything that you say very seriously. To answer your first statement, yes, we have been down this road before. Unfortunately, I'm still ignorant. Sorry but finishing to me is as mysterious as the choice of blades is to others. I have that pretty much figured out. But after putting all the work into making a project, the last thing I want to do is screw it up by not finishing it correctly. And, since I hate sanding, I don't want to apply something and then have to sand it back off. So, with that said, I am still not sure of how to finish and what to use. It might be easier if there were not so many choices of products to choose from. There are many different products that say "oil" but nobody up until now has said what the difference is between them. Like tung oil. What the heck is that and how/when/why is it used? I find now that Watco is pretty much the same as BLO/mineral spirits. Well, since we can no longer by MS here in the People's Republic of California, I guess I will be using Watco instead. Someone else mentioned spraying the project with denatured alcohol. I knew I had a big bottle of what I thought was denatured alcohol but it turns out, it is isopropol alcohol. I don't know what the difference is but I'll find out. I'm a simple kind of guy. Point me in a direction, give me a shove and I'll go there. But on a subject that I know nothing about, the first thing I do is ask questions. If I have to ask more than once, it's because I'm dense or I forgot what the answer was the last time I asked. Thanks for all the help you have offered me over the last couple of years. I truly do appreciate it.

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Ray I meant no offense about the point of we discussed this. I thought you took that advise and went ahead to finish it and it was done. Ray there are so many oil finishes out there and on top of that there is various versions of each. Just because it says tung oil it may not be 100% tung oil and have additives. I can not go into them all because that would take days. I suggest you do a google search such as this one and it explains some differences. http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/understanding-oil-wax-finishes/

Again it is not fair for us to tell you what to do and how to finish. I told you my preference and I would use Danish oil alone. You will not want a sheen with the end grain cuts like that and whatever sheen you get on the flat top is a bonus. If it is to be used for food then you may want to consider other food safe finishes. All though when Danish oil is dried and cured it is food safe. Trying to spray even coats in all those nooks and crannies will result in pooling of finish I guarantee it. But if you want a quick light coat then have at it,. This is all I have for you on this subject. Sorry. 

[OCtoolguy]

23 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Ray I meant no offense about the point of we discussed this. I thought you took that advise and went ahead to finish it and it was done. Ray there are so many oil finishes out there and on top of that there is various versions of each. Just because it says tung oil it may not be 100% tung oil and have additives. I can not go into them all because that would take days. I suggest you do a google search such as this one and it explains some differences. http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/understanding-oil-wax-finishes/

Again it is not fair for us to tell you what to do and how to finish. I told you my preference and I would use Danish oil alone. You will not want a sheen with the end grain cuts like that and whatever sheen you get on the flat top is a bonus. If it is to be used for food then you may want to consider other food safe finishes. All though when Danish oil is dried and cured it is food safe. Trying to spray even coats in all those nooks and crannies will result in pooling of finish I guarantee it. But if you want a quick light coat then have at it,. This is all I have for you on this subject. Sorry. 

Thank you JT, please, I didn't take it that way. That's the problem of the written word rather than the spoken word. I appreciate all the time you take to explain to all of us who ask questions on the many subjects. The baskets that I am now finishing up are not the same as the original that I pictured. That one is sitting on our kitchen counter and my wife loves it. I couldn't recall exactly what I did on it but if my memory serves me correctly, all I did was spray it with a couple of coats of spray shellac. I didn't even do a good sanding job on it because I wasn't all that pleased with the look of the raw wood. But, once it was finished, and I got very lucky with the color of the poplar, I am quite happy with it. Back at that time, I had gone to H/D looking for some spray varnish as that was what the pattern/maker had done on his in the book. I couldn't find spray varnish but I did find the spray shellac and also the tung oil and I already had the Watco oil from another time/job. I'm just in the information gathering phase so I asked once again, how to go about finishing the new baskets. They are made of a different combination of woods. Anyway, when all is said and done, I will make my choice after applying said finishes to some scraps and see what they look like. Someone on SSV maybe in a different thread suggested spraying the wood with denatured alcohol to see how the wood would look with a clear finish and it would dry and not effect whatever finish I applied. But, for the devil of me, I can't find that post. All I have on hand is some isopropyl alcohol and I'm wondering if I can use that the same way. I'm going to give it a go and see. Thanks again for your help.