Which saw to buy?

[Bill WIlson]

1 minute ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Well Bill by now then we should have that ultimate saw out there that has all the features us scroller are looking for. Can you name that saw??? Is this that saw??  Should be being the latest one on the market. Every manufacturer has their gizmos and gadgets  and selling talk but in the end it still comes down to what you think will make scrolling easier for you and more enjoyable. Why has none of these companies come up with a dust collection system built into their saws. Can easily be done. They all should. Health issues are always a concern. Look at Saw Stop. 

By similar logic, we should have the ultimate car/refrigerator/cell phone by now as well.  Reason we don't is that every manufacturer tries to maximize their profit by balancing features, options, quality and availability to their best advantage while trying to appeal to customers who all seem to want something a little different.

As for dust collection, I have no idea.  I presume that the market hasn't driven that need hard enough yet to compel manufacturers to add something really functional.  Saw Stop wasn't simply a manifestation of someone's altruistic desire to make a safer saw.  It was one man's belief that he could corner the market and make a tidy profit by offering (some say forcing) his safety feature to the customer.

[Bill WIlson]

21 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Ray what makes Pegas name that high quality?? Because of the  blades?? Is that the same company?? 

Interesting.  I searched for "Pegas" and found a website for a company called Scies Miniatures in Switzerland.  They were established by the Grobet File Company.  I have no idea if or how this may relate to the quality of their products, but they look have a substantial background in jewelry saws & blades.

 

https://www.scies.ch/who-we-are.html

[Rockytime]

I have used Pike blades, #2/0 and #2, For 40 years cutting brass parts for clocks and model machining. I now use Pegas blades as my most used blades. I have numerous things from Grobet.

[OCtoolguy]

1 hour ago, Bill WIlson said:

That's the devil in the details.  Chinese manufacturing is capable of making top quality products, so just because something is made in China, doesn't necessarily have to mean it's inferior.  The parent company has to specify tolerances, components and testing protocols to achieve the level of quality they want.  The fact that manufacturers aren't necessarily re-inventing the wheel doesn't mean they aren't building a better mousetrap. 

My point exactly. Thanks Bill.

 

[Rolf]

I don't think there will ever be a perfect saw that suit each one of us. Just reading the forums tells me that. 

I think the Hawk G4 came about as close as you can get. Me adding the Delta clamps got it even closer.  Top and bottom feed,  adjustable stroke etc.

5 hours ago, hotshot said:

The problem is that the Pegas 21" is going to be considerably heavier than the King 16".  Ironically, after you upgrade the clamps to Pegas on a King, the price will be about the same for the King 16" as the Pegas 21"

Hotshot

The King 16" is 55 lbs the 21" 65. I assume that is without the stand. My Hawk is around 110 lbs with the legs and removing and re-attaching them takes too long so not an option.

If the king has a separate stand then it would be easy to make that a quick removal option.

[kmmcrafts]

Not too sure what is considered a dust collection system on a scroll saw.. but there are many saws out there with a dust port to hook up a dust collection.. I might add that the one on the Excalibur I have works quite well... other than the sound of the noisy vacuum, ... 14 years ago I had a Dremel 1800 that had a dust port.. so they've been around... that saw also had a disc sander on it.. quite nice little outfit but quality lacked for a production type of work I was throwing at it.. LOL

Believe Hegner now has a dust port? as does seyco, jet, wen, pegas, king, and that whole line of like saws.. My Hawk also has a spot cutout in the base right below the lower blade that I believe might be there to put a dust port in.. the size it the same as the smaller shop vac. hoses.. mine is the larger hose so I've never done anything with it ( yet )... Seyco sellsa scroll saw dust collector that can mount to the stand and stay with the saw.. also only 62db.. same noise level as the Festool and Fein vacs..

[hotshot]

1 hour ago, Rolf said:

If the king has a separate stand then it would be easy to make that a quick removal option.

The King stands are the same removable stands as the Original Excalibur.  I have the stand currently removed from my King so that it is ready to transport this Sat. where I will be doing my shift at my local craft store.  Maybe I'll do a video to demonstrate the setup.  If you have to break the stand all the way down, that would be a much bigger pain. 

On another note, for those that don't follow the SSWC forums, The King Scrollsaw in the U.S. looks to be switching to the Excelsior branding (also under King), same as Canada.  So, I guess this discussion switches to Pegas vs Excelsior.

Edited December 19, 2018 by hotshot

[hotshot]

13 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

. but there are many saws out there with a dust port to hook up a dust collection..

I'm glad you like the system on your EX, but most folks don't like the flimsy membrane that tends to make noise and catch small pieces, and most remove it soon after purchase.  I removed mine day one, right after removing the hold down.

Amongst the Ex Clones, Jet is the only one that I know of that redesigned that component, but I don't have any time on the Jet, so I don't know if it is better or not.

-----Randy

Edited December 19, 2018 by hotshot

[OCtoolguy]

2 hours ago, Bill WIlson said:

Interesting.  I searched for "Pegas" and found a website for a company called Scies Miniatures in Switzerland.  They were established by the Grobet File Company.  I have no idea if or how this may relate to the quality of their products, but they look have a substantial background in jewelry saws & blades.

 

https://www.scies.ch/who-we-are.html

Bill, I think that is the same company. After seeing the quality that they put into the replacement blade clamps for the EX and the Dewalt/Jet/Seyco saws, I would expect the same degree of quality in their saws also. Their blades are among the best if not the best. With that in mind, I would hope they would demand that whoever is making their saws put the best quality control into the production. 

[stoney]

This is a  very interesting discussion and  I would like to add my two cents.   I think the biggest reason we as scrollers have issues of one kind or another is because the manufacturers  don't seem to care about making a better or more user friendly  product.   It appears they think they know it all and don't really care what we think of their products.   When was the last time you got a request from a scroll saw manufacturer for your feedback on how they could improve their product?  It seems to me once the product is on the market they can't handle the fact they might have screwed something up and God forbid they correct it.   Gee they might have to announce a recall. LOL   Look how long it took Hegner to acknowledge that the saw dust created on their saws should not be blown into the operators face.   Boy that was a real expensive improvement that only took about 30 years to address and correct.   The bottom line is if we want any of our scroll saws improved I guess we have to do it ourselves when possible. JMHO              

Edited December 20, 2018 by stoney

[Rockytime]

I would hope manufacturers would pay attention to the discussions on this and other sites and learn what scrollers want.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

21 minutes ago, Rockytime said:

I would hope manufacturers would pay attention to the discussions on this and other sites and learn what scrollers want.

Rocky you are a member over at IAP pen turning site and the same discussions come up there. We all said we hope the manufacturers would be following these forums and produce better pens. Still can not get a decent click pen. And yet all these cheap pens you get in the mail and what not work forever and no problems. Same with getting better platings. 

I am not sure that is the same company as the blades and not just a name of a saw. Will see. yes to Kevin about dust ports on saws but how many actually work and not a hindrance when it comes to blade removal. Hegner has had that swing down dust port for many years and is useless.  That is a big complaint on those $100 saws there is no room under the table to work. We as scroller adapt things for our own needs but simple ideas can be incorporated on these saws. They are not coming through any cheaper in price for sure. It all makes for good discussions I guess. There must be enough room in the saw field to keep adding players so lets keep sawing.

[tgiro]

7 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Yea guess that was silly?? 

Ray what makes Pegas name that high quality?? Because of the  blades?? Is that the same company?? 

It would be the quality control the Pegas forces on the Taiwanese company that manufactures the saw.

I have talked with a number of local manufacturers who use Chinese, Korean, and Japanese made components. They have to maintain constant quality control inspection procedures with the orientals. If they don't, I'm told, quality drops very rapidly. If Pegas wants to produce a quality product then their quality control procedures will, either insure that, or become another oriental made saw.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

45 minutes ago, tgiro said:

It would be the quality control the Pegas forces on the Taiwanese company that manufactures the saw.

I have talked with a number of local manufacturers who use Chinese, Korean, and Japanese made components. They have to maintain constant quality control inspection procedures with the orientals. If they don't, I'm told, quality drops very rapidly. If Pegas wants to produce a quality product then their quality control procedures will, either insure that, or become another oriental made saw.

You are probably right. Will see when the first report of a problem comes to this board about that saw. Maybe we should hold a pool. 

[stoney]

The author of this thread wants to know which scroll saw he should buy.   I know I will get glorious feedback from members of the Hegner Cult about how they just love their saws so I will expect it.   Some of you might think I'm  just and old crank and that is probably true but I am still allowed to express my opinion I think.   The first thing I will tell anyone willing to listen is Hegner is probably the most dependable reliable scroll saw on the market.   Now why shouldn't it be as it is also one of the most expensive saws on the market?    If you are willing to pay North of 16 or 17 hundred dollars for a scroll saw that doesn't contain many of the more desirable user friendly features of much less expensive brands go for it.   I bought mine used for much less and it has served me well but knowing what I know now it would be a cold day in hell before I would spent the going price for a new one .   Unless or until Hegner incorporates  some of the more desirable features like a larger table, both top and bottom feed, more upper arm clearance. and lower blade clamps that can't fall on the floor they don't get my vote.  Hegner could incorporate these features and still make a good profit.   I don't believe its about the money  maybe they just think they know it all and take it or leave it.  Just my not so humble opinion and I'm sticking to it. LOL 

Edited December 20, 2018 by stoney

[OCtoolguy]

1 hour ago, stoney said:

The author of this thread wants to know which scroll saw he should buy.   I know I will get glorious feedback from members of the Hegner Cult about how they just love their saws so I will expect it.   Some of you might think I'm  just and old crank and that is probably true but I am still allowed to express my opinion I think.   The first thing I will tell anyone willing to listen is Hegner is probably the most dependable reliable scroll saw on the market.   Now why shouldn't it be as it is also one of the most expensive saws on the market?    If you are willing to pay North of 16 or 17 hundred dollars for a scroll saw that doesn't contain many of the more desirable user friendly features of much less expensive brands go for it.   I bought mine used for much less and it has served me well but knowing what I know now it would be a cold day in hell before I would spent the going price for a new one .   Unless or until Hegner incorporates  some of the more desirable features like a larger table, both top and bottom feed, more upper arm clearance. and lower blade clamps that can't fall on the floor they don't get my vote.  Hegner could incorporate these features and still make a good profit.   I don't believe its about the money  maybe they just think they know it all and take it or leave it.  Just my not so humble opinion and I'm sticking to it. LOL 

I completely agree with you Stoney. I had a used Hegner saw and I realized what it's negative aspects were. My first complaint is the outrageous cost of parts. The reason I no longer have the saw is the speed problem that I encountered with it. And to fix it would have been ridiculous. So, I sold it. I have no personal experience with it but from what I have read and heard, the PS Woods saw is very much like the Hegner, American made and very reasonable in price. Customer support is great also. Sure, you might have to move a belt to change speed but how often does a scroller have to do that? If a used one ever comes on the market near me, I'm going to buy it and give it a test ride. If I don't like it, I'll sell it.

 

[Rockytime]

This is a most entertaining and informative discussion. I guess we each belong in our own little camp. Mine is in the Hawk camp. For me there is no better saw but only because I have one. This is all OK. I love these threads.

[OCtoolguy]

35 minutes ago, Rockytime said:

This is a most entertaining and informative discussion. I guess we each belong in our own little camp. Mine is in the Hawk camp. For me there is no better saw but only because I have one. This is all OK. I love these threads.

Yes, it is Les. I have followed all these type threads for the last couple of years. I figured after I got my EX that it would be my last saw for a good while but after reading all the posts about the Hawks and looking at all the videos on the Bushton site I am actively watching for a deal on a good used Hawk. I'm not sure which model yet but it will probably come down to which one comes up first at the right price. I haven't seen any used BM26's at all or G4's for that matter. Lot's of older Hawks but I'm holding out for the best of the best with the variable speed control. I really want to try one.

 

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, octoolguy said:

Yes, it is Les. I have followed all these type threads for the last couple of years. I figured after I got my EX that it would be my last saw for a good while but after reading all the posts about the Hawks and looking at all the videos on the Bushton site I am actively watching for a deal on a good used Hawk. I'm not sure which model yet but it will probably come down to which one comes up first at the right price. I haven't seen any used BM26's at all or G4's for that matter. Lot's of older Hawks but I'm holding out for the best of the best with the variable speed control. I really want to try one.

 

For a small shop.. you might be best off with a 220 or even a older 216.. but get the 216 with the VS.. most will say they didn't make a VS 216 but my friend had one and I have seen a few around.. 216 has the tension release at the back of the saw though.. 220 would be best choice in my opinion for a small shop.. especially if your going to be moving it out to use and parking it back into the corner.. Those 226's are big monsters.. and heavy.. but.. if you can spare the room.. well worth owning... Looking for a budget saw on CL or FB sometimes you can't be too choosy when a deal pops up though.. I think you'd like a Hawk... but then.. also thought Iggy would too, LOL They do take a long time to get used to..if you're use to the DeWalt style saws...

[Rockytime]

I had a 216VS Hawk. I loved it. Worked like a champ and was in beautiful condition. Paid $200. I sold it when I found my present 220VS Ultra Hawk. Paid $200 although it had a bad controller. It was not even on the saw so I knew what was in store. Beautiful saw. I would not have room for a 226.

[OCtoolguy]

38 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

For a small shop.. you might be best off with a 220 or even a older 216.. but get the 216 with the VS.. most will say they didn't make a VS 216 but my friend had one and I have seen a few around.. 216 has the tension release at the back of the saw though.. 220 would be best choice in my opinion for a small shop.. especially if your going to be moving it out to use and parking it back into the corner.. Those 226's are big monsters.. and heavy.. but.. if you can spare the room.. well worth owning... Looking for a budget saw on CL or FB sometimes you can't be too choosy when a deal pops up though.. I think you'd like a Hawk... but then.. also thought Iggy would too, LOL They do take a long time to get used to..if you're use to the DeWalt style saws...

Well, it's all conjecture at this point. If I mention another saw to my wife, she may leave me. But, I check everyday on C/L.

 

[Rockytime]

Ever think it might be a good trade? Just wonderin'.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

There is not really that much difference between the 220 and 226. I know this is an older blurry photo but the saws are sitting next to each other. 

[Scrappile]

Hello, the gentleman that started the thread bought a DeWalt about 35 posts ago. 

[OCtoolguy]

18 hours ago, Rockytime said:

Ever think it might be a good trade? Just wonderin'.

Les, you are soooo bad!