Thinking About A New Saw Or This Hegner

[kmmcrafts]

I'm thinking about selling my DeWalt, old Hawk,  and Excalibur and buying another high end saw.. Really leaning toward a new Hawk BM series.. but ran across this Hegner tonight on Craigslist... Not knowing the Hegners very well.. Not sure I'd like it.. took me forever to have the Hawk grow on me and now I don't really like any of my other saws, LOL... I notice the table on the Hegners look small.. one of my bigger complaints on the Excalibur.. and that the blade is close to the front of the saw rather than setting back aways.. Yeah I know I can build a larger table... and might if I was to know that I actually would like the Hegner.. I also see the are on sale... Still leaning toward the Hawk.. but I also have always wanted to try a Hegner.. rather spend $400 ish on something to "try"  than $700 +

https://grandrapids.craigslist.org/tls/d/scroll-saw/6767867748.html

I scrapped my idea of a new table saw... and bought a CNC Shark HD4  router with water cooled spindle..  While spending some money.. also got a CNC 40W CO2 laser ( cheap china one ).. just to play with.. Also picking up a Festool MIDI Vac.. to make a dust collection system for my scroll saw... In no way will these two CNC machines take over my handmade scroll saw stuff.. I wanted the table saw to branch out and make cutting boards or something different than scroll work.. but got to thinking about how I would have to man the saw and glue ups etc etc.. which takes time away from scroll sawing... so the CNC machines caught my interest.. I don't know much about them but will be learning either if it was an investment or a bust... I feel the table saw for me would be a bust because I'm getting busy enough that I need to be at the scroll saw more and more.. and not expanding into something else that will also take a lot of my time... Maybe dreaming but hoping to be able to set up the CNC and while that is making something.. I can go scroll saw.. but since I don't know much about them.. There'll be quite a learning curve to not only run it.. but now looks like I'll need to learn more design type work with the computer.. so i can run the darn things, LOL.. If nothing else.. this is probably at least going to give me some scroll saw pattern making type of experience... even if I throw away the CNC's LOL  

Anyway back to the scroll saws... This Hegner... Since I know very little on the Hegners... anything stand out in this saw that I should not bother to go look at it.. It's only about a 30-50 minute drive from me. One thing that turns me off right away is the fact they was too lazy to at least dust the thing off before taking the pictures.. LOL But maybe a good sign that it works too, LOL.. I feel the price is a little steep but maybe that's just me.. I'm probably going to pass on it.. and go with the new BM Hawk... since Hawks is what I know.. and I'll have a lot of learning with my other new toys..

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Boy this whole thread you talked yourself in and out of many tools. If you have you mind set on the Hawk then why bother to even look at the Hegner. It is a different saw for sure. The new Hawks have more features than the Hegner. Hegner has not changed in many years since I knew them. My Hegner I made a larger table top but I did that on my 2 RBIs also. Just curious what are you planning with the CNC?? Sounds like you want to substitute cnc with scrolling.  You can make a ton more ornaments with a CNC than scrolling. I do not know anything about them so no help there. Will say this I would be lost if I did not have the woodworking tools that I have in my shop. I can create far beyond scrolling.but still hand made.  If you are being overwhelmed it maybe time to hire on some help. 

I knew a husband and wife team that quit their jobs and became full time scrollers and started their own business. They got quite busy and hired on a young guy who did alot of the sanding for them. They did most of the cutting. In fact they were the ones that got me hooked. I never wanted to get as big as they did because I liked my job but I did start my business and did quite well back in the 90's. 

[JimErn]

Seems to me that you know what you want

took me forever to have the Hawk grow on me and now I don't really like any of my other saws,

all the rest, while interesting, is moot

pull the trigger is my vote

[fredfret]

Hanger is a great saw but uses tools to install blades and is a pure bottom feeder. You can top feed a Hawk.

[kmmcrafts]

7 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Boy this whole thread you talked yourself in and out of many tools. If you have you mind set on the Hawk then why bother to even look at the Hegner. It is a different saw for sure. The new Hawks have more features than the Hegner. Hegner has not changed in many years since I knew them. My Hegner I made a larger table top but I did that on my 2 RBIs also. Just curious what are you planning with the CNC?? Sounds like you want to substitute cnc with scrolling.  You can make a ton more ornaments with a CNC than scrolling. I do not know anything about them so no help there. Will say this I would be lost if I did not have the woodworking tools that I have in my shop. I can create far beyond scrolling.but still hand made.  If you are being overwhelmed it maybe time to hire on some help. 

I knew a husband and wife team that quit their jobs and became full time scrollers and started their own business. They got quite busy and hired on a young guy who did alot of the sanding for them. They did most of the cutting. In fact they were the ones that got me hooked. I never wanted to get as big as they did because I liked my job but I did start my business and did quite well back in the 90's. 

 Yeah I was just trying to give the Hegner guys a chance to talk me out of the Hawk.. .. I've only seen one Hegner in person and it was a real old 14" single speed with no quick release.. I'm interested in trying a Hegner but not really at the cost of this particular one.. Buying new I have more comfort level with the Hawk as that is what I know.. but still have interest in Hegner's basically just looking to learn the ins and outs of them..as I know the Hawks.. Right off the bat there are small tidbits about the Hegner that sort of turn me off.. small table being one of them but it's a simple fix too...

The purpose of the CNCs is more about enhancing my scroll work and capabilities rather than replacing the scroll work... I don't believe CNC work to be considered "Handmade" while many do.. maybe my mind will change on that after I learn them... I really wanted the laser machine more than the router.. But I purchased both for a few different reasons.. I may start another store and do a different type of work using the CNC.. but at this point the scroll work is very enjoyable and profitable for me.. I don't consider myself a woodworker.. but more a scroll saw artist ...  which is why I backed down from the big table saw.. I don't know much about woodwork and table saws.. could I learn? yeah.. but I feel if I'm going to take on a different type of work.. I might as well do something that doesn't require my whole attention.. working a table saw and doing a different line of woodwork requires my time.. which would take me away from the scroll work. The CNC will take my time in designing and setting up the machine but once started I can walk away to go scroll saw while the CNC does it's thing.. If I expand it out into different projects.. I see the CNC's as a better investment for me.. and just like scroll work.. the CNC can do many different mediums.. I suppose the table saw can too.. but.. still requires me to run it.. My scroll sawing business gets busier every year.. I don't want to get so big with the scroll work that I need to hire people.. as this brings on much more tax laws and liability things that I'm not interested in dealing with.. The laws I have to deal with now is plenty enough for me.. and that is getting worst with these new state sales tax laws etc..  

The husband and wife team you speak of is probably the same couple that contacted me several years ago wondering if I would be interested in buying their business as they was ready to retire.. They only did ornaments and small things.. maybe keychains? anyway they was doing $120,000 a year in sales back in 2007-8 ish.. I wasn't ready for that kind of commitment at that time.. and would have failed the business as at that time I was still very new to the business side of this..and had never really done shows.. and that was all they did.. I don't think they did any online stuff.. 

[meflick]

I can't help you with the scroll saw choice, but I am sure you will get a lot of input there from much more knowledgeable people then me.  However, I did want to address a bit about the CNC machine.  First, you may find that you are spending more time then you think with the CNC machine.  It is not as simple as so many seem to think, you don't just download a design, plug it in, turn it on and walk away.  First, you are going to need to spend some quality time learning to use the software and the machine.  Also, depending on the size of the work you want to do, you may find that you are going to need to still cut and glue up wood panels to make it on a CNC. Fortunately, hubby was a woodworker already and has the table saw, the jointer, etc. needed for that.

It is a great addition to the workshop, we added one last year when they were selling them with the laser option rather than the spindle and I have enjoyed working with it.  But I have spent a lot of time working through the Vectric tutorials, projects, etc. and have only scratched the surface with it probably.  Still haven't given the laser a try.  Just like with your saw, there is the preparation of the wood, creating the pattern in the software, creating the directions for the machine to "tool" the pattern and then you still have to keep an eye on the machine to make sure you don't have it set too deep, too wide, etc., etc.   I have never simply walked away completely from my machine yet. I have been in the shop doing other things but keeping a close eye. Then, once it is finished on the CNC, you still have the same hand finishing work you would have to do with other handmade items. With the Christmas holiday coming to an end, you are probably going to have a little more free time to spend learning all that. Not trying to discourage you, but just make you aware that there is a learning curve to it, more so then with a scroll saw for sure but it does allow you to do things that you cannot do with the scroll saw like carving.  I like my CNC, but it has taken away from my time at the saw this year.  So, just be aware of that. I love learning new things and have made some neat things with it and want to learn more.  However, to do so means I am away from the saw.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Kevin I do not think it was the same husband and wife, but I have not seen them in a long time. They got big and moved out of NJ to Pennsy some 12 or 15 years ago. They were doing big stuff and alot of things like I do. Cheaper in Pennsy. 

As Melanie said CNC work is an art in itself you will need to spend quality time with these. I have a feeling ornaments is what your goal is because it seems you get big orders on them and they take you away from doing other things because of the amounts and you can say what you want that gets BORING. Doing hundreds of the same thing is tough. I seen laser cutters produce ornaments out quickly. Of course you have the burn product. As far as hiring goes you can find a person or relative and pay them under the table. That is what my friends did. To me CNC is a tool but it is not a hand made finished item. Just as with lasers.  Good luck with your new toys.

As far as Hegner goes it is a reliable industrial based saw, made to last and work hard. I seen your work and do not see why a bigger table is a concern for you. You do not do mirrors or plaques that need support when cutting. As said Hegner is a bottom feed saw only and require a tool for inserting blade in clamp and is a bit more touchy when it comes to that. Hegners can develop a pingging sound from the solid spring in the back but it is all part of knowing the saw. There is a slight learning curve to them but a well made saw that has not changed much over the years. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

31 minutes ago, meflick said:

I can't help you with the scroll saw choice, but I am sure you will get a lot of input there from much more knowledgeable people then me.  However, I did want to address a bit about the CNC machine.  First, you may find that you are spending more time then you think with the CNC machine.  It is not as simple as so many seem to think, you don't just download a design, plug it in, turn it on and walk away.  First, you are going to need to spend some quality time learning to use the software and the machine.  Also, depending on the size of the work you want to do, you may find that you are going to need to still cut and glue up wood panels to make it on a CNC. Fortunately, hubby was a woodworker already and has the table saw, the jointer, etc. needed for that.

It is a great addition to the workshop, we added one last year when they were selling them with the laser option rather than the spindle and I have enjoyed working with it.  But I have spent a lot of time working through the Vectric tutorials, projects, etc. and have only scratched the surface with it probably.  Still haven't given the laser a try.  Just like with your saw, there is the preparation of the wood, creating the pattern in the software, creating the directions for the machine to "tool" the pattern and then you still have to keep an eye on the machine to make sure you don't have it set too deep, too wide, etc., etc.   I have never simply walked away completely from my machine yet. I have been in the shop doing other things but keeping a close eye. Then, once it is finished on the CNC, you still have the same hand finishing work you would have to do with other handmade items. With the Christmas holiday coming to an end, you are probably going to have a little more free time to spend learning all that. Not trying to discourage you, but just make you aware that there is a learning curve to it, more so then with a scroll saw for sure but it does allow you to do things that you cannot do with the scroll saw like carving.  I like my CNC, but it has taken away from my time at the saw this year.  So, just be aware of that. I love learning new things and have made some neat things with it and want to learn more.  However, to do so means I am away from the saw.

Yes, i'm fully aware of that.. which is why I chose to purchase the CNC now.. before I get to a point where I need to spend all my time at the scroll saw... I probably made it sound as though I thought I could just set the machine and push a button and walk away... I do realize there is a huge learning curve on these.. I opted for a stand alone laser rather than the one that goes in the CNC because one that come with the router is very limited and not very powerful.. I don't know much about the routers... but have done a lot of research on the lasers..  I know a little about the Vectric software and vector programs as I helped a friend through the learning of running his plotter vinyl sticker machine.. I'm sure it's different than what he does but i have a little.. very little concept of what to expect.. I have a table saw that works and does most everything I need it to.. as well as the jointer and bandsaw.. and can do glue ups.. I do glue ups now.. when I say I don't know woodwork I mean big stuff like furniture and larger projects. joinery etc.   things that would require making / buying jigs etc for the table saw.. 

I do not expect to learn these CNC machines in one or two years.. but something I want to learn.. and take my time learning not expecting to jump in and start making money with them or anything of that nature..

[innar20]

I have Hegner.

It is a lot better than the mine old saw Delta. I use "tool" to secure the blade but the tool is not "must be". Different knobs are for sale. 

I love this saw. Simpel construction and works very well. All parts availible on reasonable price and always. German quality! 

Edited December 17, 2018 by innar20

[OCtoolguy]

15 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I'm thinking about selling my DeWalt, old Hawk,  and Excalibur and buying another high end saw.. Really leaning toward a new Hawk BM series.. but ran across this Hegner tonight on Craigslist... Not knowing the Hegners very well.. Not sure I'd like it.. took me forever to have the Hawk grow on me and now I don't really like any of my other saws, LOL... I notice the table on the Hegners look small.. one of my bigger complaints on the Excalibur.. and that the blade is close to the front of the saw rather than setting back aways.. Yeah I know I can build a larger table... and might if I was to know that I actually would like the Hegner.. I also see the are on sale... Still leaning toward the Hawk.. but I also have always wanted to try a Hegner.. rather spend $400 ish on something to "try"  than $700 +

https://grandrapids.craigslist.org/tls/d/scroll-saw/6767867748.html

I scrapped my idea of a new table saw... and bought a CNC Shark HD4  router with water cooled spindle..  While spending some money.. also got a CNC 40W CO2 laser ( cheap china one ).. just to play with.. Also picking up a Festool MIDI Vac.. to make a dust collection system for my scroll saw... In no way will these two CNC machines take over my handmade scroll saw stuff.. I wanted the table saw to branch out and make cutting boards or something different than scroll work.. but got to thinking about how I would have to man the saw and glue ups etc etc.. which takes time away from scroll sawing... so the CNC machines caught my interest.. I don't know much about them but will be learning either if it was an investment or a bust... I feel the table saw for me would be a bust because I'm getting busy enough that I need to be at the scroll saw more and more.. and not expanding into something else that will also take a lot of my time... Maybe dreaming but hoping to be able to set up the CNC and while that is making something.. I can go scroll saw.. but since I don't know much about them.. There'll be quite a learning curve to not only run it.. but now looks like I'll need to learn more design type work with the computer.. so i can run the darn things, LOL.. If nothing else.. this is probably at least going to give me some scroll saw pattern making type of experience... even if I throw away the CNC's LOL  

Anyway back to the scroll saws... This Hegner... Since I know very little on the Hegners... anything stand out in this saw that I should not bother to go look at it.. It's only about a 30-50 minute drive from me. One thing that turns me off right away is the fact they was too lazy to at least dust the thing off before taking the pictures.. LOL But maybe a good sign that it works too, LOL.. I feel the price is a little steep but maybe that's just me.. I'm probably going to pass on it.. and go with the new BM Hawk... since Hawks is what I know.. and I'll have a lot of learning with my other new toys..

I always have to wonder about people who put things up for sale and don't even take the time to brush the dust off. It makes me wonder how well the seller even took care of the saw or anything else for that matter. It might be a good deal but I bought my Hegner that was just like this one for $300 and it came with the light and foot switch. If it's close by you, go take a look and make an offer. Who knows. Just take a really good look at the "soft" start and speed control on it. The one I bought had a problem with the speed not finding it's setting. I sold it because of that. Good luck with whatever you do.

 

[kmmcrafts]

4 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Kevin I do not think it was the same husband and wife, but I have not seen them in a long time. They got big and moved out of NJ to Pennsy some 12 or 15 years ago. They were doing big stuff and alot of things like I do. Cheaper in Pennsy. 

As Melanie said CNC work is an art in itself you will need to spend quality time with these. I have a feeling ornaments is what your goal is because it seems you get big orders on them and they take you away from doing other things because of the amounts and you can say what you want that gets BORING. Doing hundreds of the same thing is tough. I seen laser cutters produce ornaments out quickly. Of course you have the burn product. As far as hiring goes you can find a person or relative and pay them under the table. That is what my friends did. To me CNC is a tool but it is not a hand made finished item. Just as with lasers.  Good luck with your new toys.

As far as Hegner goes it is a reliable industrial based saw, made to last and work hard. I seen your work and do not see why a bigger table is a concern for you. You do not do mirrors or plaques that need support when cutting. As said Hegner is a bottom feed saw only and require a tool for inserting blade in clamp and is a bit more touchy when it comes to that. Hegners can develop a pingging sound from the solid spring in the back but it is all part of knowing the saw. There is a slight learning curve to them but a well made saw that has not changed much over the years. 

Yeah ornaments is my thing really.. and I really enjoy cutting them.  For the most part.. I don't need a larger table.. but like the Excalibur I learned real quick that I don't like the table on it.. and it is bigger than the table on the one Hegner I did see.. but that was a very old and small 14" saw.. the table width is what was small.. and while the width isn't my issue with the Excalibur.. it's the blade position being close to the end of the table that I don't like.. there's not a lot of support on cuts that are near the ending of the project and I sit close to the saw so the wood many times is getting hung up on my jacket or something... good thing I'm a skinny guy.. I suppose I could get use to it... great saw for doing my ornaments.. many of my car desk clocks are 10 - 13 inch long.. and that hangs out more than half the board off the end of my table.. on the Excalibur.. and I do cut portraits.. not huge ones and not all that often.. but most of these I cut at 11 x 14.. not much a issue if I'm using spirals... Probably just something I need to get use to on the Excalibur.. as that is my only complaint with that saw now that it has the Pegas chucks on it.

So far I haven't found cutting the ornaments boring.. they are actually my favorite thing to cut.. second favorite is portraits... but I try to not make those as I've never had great luck selling that type of work.. and while I enjoy cutting most anything.. I do prefer to cut stuff that I can sell rather than sitting on projects for years before they move..

   

 

[Scrappile]

I have put an auxiliary table on every scroll saw I have owned, except for my first two  Had I had more experience when I owned them, I would have put auxiliary tables on them also. 

[OCtoolguy]

Hey Kevin, I just came across a website that may interst you if you are really going to get into the world of CNC. I have been mildly interested in Arduino microcomputing and just came across a site called "Tinkercad". There is a short video that sort of explains what it's all about. I'm going to be checking it out as well as the 30 day online course on Arduino. Here is the link:

https://www.tinkercad.com/

[kmmcrafts]

I'll have to check that out Ray, Thank you for sharing this info...

The CNC Router will come with a software called Vcarve.. it's a vectric software.. I've watched a ton of videos on this and have somewhat been planing for a few years to get a CNC.. was always torn between the CNC router or just a stand alone laser machine.. Almost bit the bullet last year.. but really didn't want to spend the cash either... This year has been wonderful with a lot of business.. 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

5 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

I do prefer to cut stuff that I can sell rather than sitting on projects for years before they move..

Well Kevin everyone can make that statement who ever made anything in their lives. Kevin you mentioned this a few times and it made me go look. Front of blade to front of table on Hegner 5-3/4" .Front of blade to front of table which is round on the RBI 6-1/2" Hegner is 18" and Rbi is 20" Same on 226. Now Dewalt front of blade to front of table is a wopping 8" you may want to look at those instead if that is a concern. I bring these measurements up because unless you use spiral blades all pieces come to the front so it does not matter what size your wings of the table are. This is all without any extension table tops which you can make to any size you want.I have cut 30"+ mirrors with flat blades on my 226 without a problem. I do have to stand up when cutting because unlike you I have some extra padding in the mid section. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

44 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Well Kevin everyone can make that statement who ever made anything in their lives. Kevin you mentioned this a few times and it made me go look. Front of blade to front of table on Hegner 5-3/4" .Front of blade to front of table which is round on the RBI 6-1/2" Hegner is 18" and Rbi is 20" Same on 226. Now Dewalt front of blade to front of table is a wopping 8" you may want to look at those instead if that is a concern. I bring these measurements up because unless you use spiral blades all pieces come to the front so it does not matter what size your wings of the table are. This is all without any extension table tops which you can make to any size you want.I have cut 30"+ mirrors with flat blades on my 226 without a problem. I do have to stand up when cutting because unlike you I have some extra padding in the mid section. 

Thanks for those measurements JT.. you had me curious so I just went out to measure the EX-21.. cold out there and was in my pajamas,  so I did a quick measure.. looks like at best maybe 4-1/4 " from front of table to the front of the blade.. The Hawks don't bother me this way... but that Excalibur sure does... I know it's something one just needs to get use to... I was real interested in the Jet saws until I seen how they are the same way.. probably the same 4-1/4.. does look like the new 18" Jet has a little more table in front of the blade.. but not a whole lot more.. 

I don't do the big stuff often.. but I did cut a 28" frame for a friend to put her stained glass piece in.. This was before I had several saws.. so was done on my Dewalt.. I used flat blades for the most part then used spirals on areas that I couldn't do with the flat blades..