Drill press/drill bit question

[OCtoolguy]

I had an odd situation happen today and I'm not sure what the "fix" is for it. I'll try to explain. First of all, I'm using a Delta 8" drill press. It's a little feller. It has about 3" of quill travel. I was trying to drill 1/16" holes in some 1 1/2" stock for a compound cut and I was using a 1/2" piece of pine as the sacrificial surface beneath the 1 1/2" piece. No matter what combination I tried, I couldn't get the drill bit to go all the way through the wood. It seems that even if I mounted the bit with as little shank as possible in the chuck, by the time I drilled down into the wood, the jaws of the chuck would contact the wood before the drill bit exited the back side of the wood. I took the sacrificial piece out of the equation and still couldn't do it. I finally had to increase my drill bit size up to 7/64" to get the length I needed but still wasn't able to use a sacrificial board. Is it simply that I'm limited because of the small drill press or what? I did mess around with the table height too but I just couldn't come up with the combination that I needed. I'm confused and stumped. I finally got all the holes drilled but I'm not happy about the back side of the piece. Luckily it won't show but there has to be a fix for this problem. Can any of you shine a light on this for me? 

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by octoolguy

[kmmcrafts]

LOL, First thing to come to my mind is.... Is the drill bit you was using actually longer than the 1-1/2 inch stock you're trying to drill?  Sounds like the problem to me since you say your 7/64 bit did it.. I find a lot of the smaller bits are also short bits.. especially when you get to the real small bits.. 

[OCtoolguy]

12 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

LOL, First thing to come to my mind is.... Is the drill bit you was using actually longer than the 1-1/2 inch stock you're trying to drill?  Sounds like the problem to me since you say your 7/64 bit did it.. I find a lot of the smaller bits are also short bits.. especially when you get to the real small bits.. 

YES Kevin! I checked that. I have a bunch of new bits and they are all the same length. It's really weird though. I could make it work if the jaws of the chuck didn't protrude out so far when they get down to that small of a bit. I tried all different combinations of table height, drill bit protrusion, backer boards, you name it. I tried it. I know there is something I'm missing but I just got so frustrated, I gave up and just drilled the holes and didn't worry about the back side.

 

[kmmcrafts]

Well,  If the chuck is going down all the way to the wood there is only two things it can be.. 

1) Drill Bit Too Short

2) Drill Bit To Far Into Chuck Which Makes It Too Short

Is it possible that the since you put the bit all the way out to the bottom of the chuck that it could be slipping and pushing back up into the chuck.. I mean... If you have 1-1/2 + inch sticking out of the bottom of the chuck then you should be drilling through that distance.. unless like i said.. it's slipping back up slightly into the chuck..   

If you weren't bottoming out the chuck to the wood I'd say you need to adjust the depth stop..

Edited February 2, 2019 by kmmcrafts

[Fab4]

Hi Ray:
Sounds to me like your drill bit is slipping in the chuck
Measure your drill bit before you start drilling - then check it after you drilled through as far as you can
You would think that if  your bit is long enough it would go through,
Fab4 

Looks like Kevin and I posted at the same time and basically said the ame thing

Edited February 2, 2019 by Fab4
added note

[OCtoolguy]

50 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

Well,  If the chuck is going down all the way to the wood there is only two things it can be.. 

1) Drill Bit Too Short

2) Drill Bit To Far Into Chuck Which Makes It Too Short

Is it possible that the since you put the bit all the way out to the bottom of the chuck that it could be slipping and pushing back up into the chuck.. I mean... If you have 1-1/2 + inch sticking out of the bottom of the chuck then you should be drilling through that distance.. unless like i said.. it's slipping back up slightly into the chuck..   

If you weren't bottoming out the chuck to the wood I'd say you need to adjust the depth stop..

I understand what you are saying Kevin. It seems that as soon as I add the thickness of the backer, that's where the problem comes in. There is some magic combination of table height, backer thickness, drill bit length and quill capacity that I'm missing.

 

[SCROLLSAW703]

Howdy Mr. Ray,

My first thought was bit length. Then the more I kicked it around, seein's how it's a smaller drill press, there could be a couple things. By chance, does the press have depth adjustments? If so, are they adjusted out so that the length of your quill has full reach?

The next thought I had was maybe you were gettin' your bit so far out towards the end of the jaws, they weren't gettin' the best of grip on yer bit, therefore lettin' yer bit push back up into the quill while yer doin' the drillin'. I kinda have that issue with the real tiny bits I have to use for intricate work like feathers, eyes, Native American designs, etc.

Depending on the stock, if it's very tough drillin' and I've a lot to drill  with small bits, I will set the bit up into the jaws far enough to get a good bite on the bit, drill what length I can, then go back and let out the rest of the bit to the end of the jaws, or close to it, and finish drillin' my entry holes that way. Yea, it takes a little more time that way, but most times it keeps from bustin' a bit or two, but still drillin' completely through the stock.

Mr. Ray, Hope this helps ya out a little, my friend. Keep in touch, Boss. Ring my phone if I can be of assistance with anything. Mind your manners!;)

Sawdust703(brad)

[tgiro]

Ray - try this. Put your bit in the chuck and tighten it as best you can. Measure the length of the bit sticking out of the chuck and write that number down.

Drill your piece.

Whether it works or not, re-measure the length of the bit. If the bit is slipping in the chuck it will be a different length than when you first put it in.

I know some drill chucks don't clamp down on most bits small than 1/16th". This may be the case with yours.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

To the answer is in your travel. If you put the bit in the chuck and you measure its length it must be 1-1/2" or better to start. Now without the project piece there pull the handle down as far as you can with no stop detent holding you back. Should be a free fall. Now as you hold that there raise the table so that blade touches your sacrificial piece. Now let the arm back up Now measure the distance between the tip of the bit and the top of your sacrificial piece. If it measure and it should, over 1-1/2" means you have enough travel in the quill to do your operation. Now lower the table with the sacrificial piece still on it and insert your project piece between the bit and the table with as little space in between as possible. You are now good to go. I believe your travel is not allowing enough because you set the distance between the bit and project piece as too much before it enters the piece. Narrow that space up and it has to work. But if that bit is sliding up the chuck then you have other problems. But that is where your mystery is. Good luck.

Edited February 2, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

 

Quote

It seems that even if I mounted the bit with as little shank as possible in the chuck, by the time I drilled down into the wood, the jaws of the chuck would contact the wood before the drill bit exited the back side of the wood.

This statement here make me think he's getting enough travel in the quill... but the bit is too short OR slipping back up into the chuck..

Quote

I took the sacrificial piece out of the equation and still couldn't do it.

Doing this will increase the distance from the drill chuck.. therefor you'd need to raise the table up to get the same distance down into the wood..

 

When I drill pilot holes on my little 8" Delta press.. I always do as what JT said.. I put the sacrificial piece down on the table.. I then adjust the table so the drill bit with the quilll all the way down will bottom out on my sacrificial piece.. I then raise it just a very small amount.. This way I know my bit is going to go through the piece I'm drilling... but not go through my sacrificial piece.. I don't need to make holes on my drill press table so I always, always bottom out the bit just slightly below the top of the sacrificial piece..

His problem is either the bit is too short... or slippage once he starts drilling... that is the only two things it can be "IF" the chuck is going all the way down and hitting his piece he's drilling..  

Another thing that sometimes happens to me when drilling my holes for the clocks using the forestner bits.. The table on my Delta just has a clamp to hold the table height.. I've had a few instances where I didn't have the clamp tight enough and as I drill the table is moving down so I'm not getting the depth  that I had set it up for..

But that doesn't sound like his problem because he is bottoming out the chuck to his piece of wood and not getting through the back side.. so again.. drill bit too short... or slipping back up into the chuck... the only two options it can be..

 

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

No his problem is in the travel. He is  allowing too much distance between the project piece and the tip of the drill bit. He then spent alot of the allowable travel to just get to the project piece. If the bit is slipping I would think he would see that. May have to get him some better glasses. Others told him to check for slippage and easy enough to measure. If it is too short than shame on him and he is banned from the shop for life.

Whenever I drill with a forstner bit I use the detent stops and allow the bit to ride along side the piece to the depth I want and then lock the stop down. No need to keep moving the table that is why they have the stop function. Not sure what the travel is on those small drill presses. I have a sacrificial board double sided tape on the table at all times. I also have it so it sticks out further on the side to give better support and also allows me to set up stop blocks when drilling multiple holes. Clamps and double sided tape work wonders. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[SCROLLSAW703]

Howdy,

Mr. JT, I beg to differ Sir. I've spent the last 3 hours readin' and settin' this up on my drill press like Mr. Ray described he did.

First off, near as I can tell in my readin' thru parts manuals, instruction manuals, and parts schematics, at best, he could have 2'' of travel. So, My shop foreman & I took a stroll over to the shop at 3:00 this morning, on account o' this is buggin' me. So, under the careful watch of my foreman, we discussed all the possibilities of the situation, and here is what we came up with.

Now, seein's how I just got a little drill press my own self. A 10'' press. First thing we did was to measure the length of the stroke. I came up with 2 1/2'' full out. So I adjusted it back to a 2'' stroke. Laid a 1/2'' pc. of sacrificial wood on the drill table, located a 1/16'' bit, measured the length of the bit I have and come up with a 2'' bit. 

Now, here's where it get's interestin'. I'm tryin' to be polite about this so nobody gets offended. Throw the jakes & start droppin' gears, gentlemen! Turn yer thinker boxes on. Unless you've got extended length 1/16'' bits, what do get when ya put a 2'' bit along side 1 1/2'' material? Any takers?????????????  If I'm not mistaken, you've got a 1/2'' a bit left to try & get the jaws to bite and hold square, correct? If the bit ain't in those jaws proper, it'll just slide up with downward pressure. With a 1/2'' of the end of the bit in the end of them jaws, he'd have to get them good'n tight, correct? 

This, in turn, imo, rules out travel distance. Simply because, regardless of the length of travel, the solution still circles back to the length of the bit. The bit is to short for an adequate grip of the jaws to hold it proper, therefore, it is 1)allowing the bit to slip, or 2)his bit is shorter than, well, I figger ya get the picture. That's the best I can offer. In all the readin' and huntin' I done, and then the set up on my own press. 

I reckon that's about all I have to say about that.

Sawdust703(brad)

[Bill WIlson]

" No matter what combination I tried, I couldn't get the drill bit to go all the way through the wood. It seems that even if I mounted the bit with as little shank as possible in the chuck, by the time I drilled down into the wood, the jaws of the chuck would contact the wood before the drill bit exited the back side of the wood. "

To me, this is the key to the mystery.  If the jaws of the chuck are touching the wood, then it's the length of the bit that it the problem.  If the jaws stopped short of the wood, then it would be travel.  It shouldn't matter how thick the backer is or even if one is used.  If the bit is too short, the backer won't matter.

When using a larger bit, the jaws won't protrude as far out of the chuck.  The smaller the bit, the further the jaws will protrude.  I don't know how much difference this makes between a 1/16" bit and a 7/64" bit, but it really doesn't matter if there is less than 1 1/2" of bit sticking out of the chuck.

[ScollSaw Slasher]

After drilling a zillion holes both by hand and drill press, if the shank of the bit (non serrated section and especially with small bits) is not thoroughly in the chuck it eventually will start slipping. The harder the lumber, the quicker this will happen. Now the chuck itself might be getting worn so it's actual purchase has been diminished (again, especially with smaller bits) and this as well can lead to the slippage. I really don't think this problem has anything to do with travel length, stops, etc etc. But I've been wrong before!

[Sycamore67]

I use the bits with a hex end for small bits in my drill press.  The smaller bits tend to slip in the chuck.  My drill press handles up to 5/8" bits and does not handle small bits well.  

[NC Scroller]

13 hours ago, octoolguy said:

It seems that even if I mounted the bit with as little shank as possible in the chuck, by the time I drilled down into the wood, the jaws of the chuck would contact the wood before the drill bit exited the back side of the wood.

I have read and reread Ray post numerous times.  Since the chuck is contacting the wood, see above quote, it is not the travel.  I looked up 1/16th" drill bits on the internet.  Most that list the overall length say they are 1 7/8" long so there is roughly 3/8" to spare.  Tight but should be enough to gripe.  

So Ray step 1 would be to measure the overall bit length.  If shorter then 1 7/8" buy some longer ones.  Step 2 would be to measure your stock to be sure it is really 1 1/2"  Step 3 insert the bit and measure that you have at least 1/32" more then 1 1/2" of bit.  Step 4 lower the quill all the way and while still lowered raise the table, with the sacrificial piece so it bit makes a very small dibble in the wood.  Step 5 is drill. 

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by NC Scroller

[Hermit]

Ray, I like to use these bits in my drill press. You dont have to worry about these slipping.  Now for me personally, I never use the stops on the drill press. If you've ever used the stops and had them come loose during a job and ruining a piece of work, you'll probably never use them again either. I keep mine clinched tight and out of the way. I use my table to control the depth.

The bit itself is only one inch and overall its 2-1/4" long. I know this says for metal but the holes are cleaner and virtually no run out or wobble with these bits.

To edit...disregard Ray, read your post a few times and still misinterpreted it.

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Hermit
Misinterpreted

[kmmcrafts]

I have the same press as Ray.. and the chuck on mine doesn't hold the small bits well... there is certainly enough travel in the quill for drilling 1-1/2" stock.. I've had the same issue in drilling hole with them small bits.. and I've had the bit slip but not noticeable as in spinning speed.. but once drilled the bit had backed up into the chuck just a little..

As for the quill stop..  On this particular style drill press... it's much easier to just leave the stop where it bottoms out at full length quill extension and ( well actually I have mine at about half way ) move the table to the bottom out position than it is to move the quill stop.. Not the easiest set up to mess with.. so for me.... I have certain stop blocks right at the press... If I'm drillin out a clock I have a thickness scrap ( all my clocks the same thickness as I plane my own lumber ) I drop the block on the press table raise the able to the bit I'm using with the quill bottomed out and touching the tip of the bit..I get the correct depth every time.. Much easier to loosen the table than to adjust those stupid two nuts that if I don't get them tight enough they  vibrate and adjust themselves and change the depth on their own while I'm drilling.. LOL

Mine is a well used and worn press that I bought at a tractor parts swap meet..only gave $2 for it about ten years ago.. I've drilled a lot of holes with it.. getting noisy and probably going to need to replace or rebuild it.. I like the little thing.. Maybe my quill stop is broke or something.. because I know it shouldn't move once I lock it but it does.. and where it's at ( about half way ) is where it goes to and stays on it's own so I let it have its way.. my work around works well for both of us, LOL    

[ike]

When using a 1/116 drill I useallly peck drill that is drill a little and back odd and re drill a  little deeper  etc till I get thru the stock. but when putting the drill in the chuck I tighter at one hole in the chuck  thane go all the way around and tightening It doesn't ffeel like you are putting any pressure on the drill but you are. I have drilled with a lot smaller drill bits than that and it works. IYou might have to clean the drill bit with your fingers.

IKE

[sawdust1]

One way to fix problem is to buy a chuck that will work on small bits. I did this a few years ago. I now have no problem holding small bits without slippage. I use down to #60 drill bits no problem.

 

 

Bob

Edited February 2, 2019 by sawdust1

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

6 hours ago, SCROLLSAW703 said:

Howdy,

Mr. JT, I beg to differ Sir. I've spent the last 3 hours readin' and settin' this up on my drill press like Mr. Ray described he did.

First off, near as I can tell in my readin' thru parts manuals, instruction manuals, and parts schematics, at best, he could have 2'' of travel. So, My shop foreman & I took a stroll over to the shop at 3:00 this morning, on account o' this is buggin' me. So, under the careful watch of my foreman, we discussed all the possibilities of the situation, and here is what we came up with.

Now, seein's how I just got a little drill press my own self. A 10'' press. First thing we did was to measure the length of the stroke. I came up with 2 1/2'' full out. So I adjusted it back to a 2'' stroke. Laid a 1/2'' pc. of sacrificial wood on the drill table, located a 1/16'' bit, measured the length of the bit I have and come up with a 2'' bit. 

Now, here's where it get's interestin'. I'm tryin' to be polite about this so nobody gets offended. Throw the jakes & start droppin' gears, gentlemen! Turn yer thinker boxes on. Unless you've got extended length 1/16'' bits, what do get when ya put a 2'' bit along side 1 1/2'' material? Any takers?????????????  If I'm not mistaken, you've got a 1/2'' a bit left to try & get the jaws to bite and hold square, correct? If the bit ain't in those jaws proper, it'll just slide up with downward pressure. With a 1/2'' of the end of the bit in the end of them jaws, he'd have to get them good'n tight, correct? 

This, in turn, imo, rules out travel distance. Simply because, regardless of the length of travel, the solution still circles back to the length of the bit. The bit is to short for an adequate grip of the jaws to hold it proper, therefore, it is 1)allowing the bit to slip, or 2)his bit is shorter than, well, I figger ya get the picture. That's the best I can offer. In all the readin' and huntin' I done, and then the set up on my own press. 

I reckon that's about all I have to say about that.

Sawdust703(brad)

Brad we all know how polite you like to be but you are not reading what I said and have no way to put that politely. So you are not differing with me but saying the exact same thing. But will ask you if you have 2-1/2" of travel and the space between the project and the tip of the bit is over 1 " before you start and all considered that the bit does not slip and the bit is 2" long how is that suppose to get to the bottom of the piece. You lost over an inch of travel before you started. I am not wrong but if he has slippage and or the bit is too short to start with than all bets are off. 

 

If you read his third post he answered Kevin when he suggested slippage but Ray went on to talk about the sarificial board and that is what led me to travel problem. I have a 12" table top Delta along with a floor model.

Edited February 2, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I think we are all saying the same thing here. And yes travel has alot to do with it but it is his key words of the chuck hitting the wood leads you to believe the bit is too short. Being it is because it slips or started out as too short. Ray will answer. 

[SCROLLSAW703]

Ok, Mr. JT, for the sake of agreement, again....

[SCROLLSAW703]

It appears Mr. Kevin nailed it, JT. With or without my input. Just so we're on the same page, I read all of Ray's posts several times, Mr. JT. I set up my press exactly the same way Ray said his was. Every step he describes. I also took a measurement of the jaws protruding with the 1/16" bit installed. My measurements were well over 1/4" just to get down to hold that bit.

If it makes ya feel any better JT, I also measured the length of the bit after I drilled a couple times in 1 1/2" material, & the bit had not slipped or moved in the jaws of my press. And yes, with about a 1/2" or less of the shank of the bit it the jaws & tightened, it is possible to drill thru 1 1/2" material with the travel of 2", no sacrificial board, and the bit set as Mr. Ray described. 

With or without bein' polite about it, JT, yer buckets' got a hole in it & losin' water fast. There are to many others in agreement about bit length or possible slippage, JT.

Sawdust703(brad)

 

[OCtoolguy]

Ok, ok, lets all back up a bit. We have encountered that age old problem of the written word not "sounding" the same as the spoken word. I totally understand everything each of you has written. I keep coming back to the place where I feel that the problem is in the table height. That is the main reason I sort of dislike most all of the drill presses on the market nowadays. My old Craftsman had a "quill lock" and I haven't seen another press since that has that feature. I used to set my quill all the way down and lock it in place. Then I could make all the adjustments necessary with spacers, bits, etc. Now, it's a matter of having to hold the quill down, hold the table and unwind the table lock. I only have 2 hands and this task requires 3 or more. I do like Kevin's idea of using blocks under the table for different spacing but I just don't have room for all the stuff that most of you folks do. So, coming back to my issue, most everybody has all the correct ideas in their minds and I have to give all of you credit and thanks for taking the time to try to help out. I'm going to make sure that I have no slippage. I do have some of those hex shanked bits but I had forgotten all about them. I'm not sure if the 1/16" has enough bit length to it but I will check that out too. I have read and reread all of your suggestions and put them in my head so that I can re-enter my shop loaded with a ton of help. I love you all for your kindness and for taking the time and effort to chime in on this, for lack of a better word, silly problem. Now, let's all take a deep breath and move on to things that may be more important in life.