Hawk Boss

[Rockytime]

I don't want to hijack a thread so I'm starting over. There is a discussion about the Hegner boss that prevents the upper arm from lifting too high. A solution was to cut the boss from the casting and drill and tap for a lower boss. The Hawk has a boss but not cast as part of the frame. It is just a 1/4-20 bolt with a rubber tubing over it to provide a cushion. I'm cutting a pattern that needs #60 drill holes. I'm using a #1 blade and am frustrated trying to thread the holes. I can drill a new hole and replace the boss lower. Have any of the Hawk owners here done this? I don't want to buy another saw to top feed.

[Scrappile]

Les, maybe you already do this, if not give it a try, sharpen the top end of the blades.  I quickly grind the ends of every blade to a sharp point, then I have a little tool like an ice pick with out a big handle that I stick into each hole on the back side of the piece and twist it a little, kinda like counter sink it.  Makes it much easier to thread the blade through. I thread 2/0 size blades through holes drilled with a bit as small as a #70 often.  This is the little tool I use, I don't know what it is called.  It was my wife's, she used it on her job when she worked for the phone company as a frame tech.  I think that was 35 years a go!  An ice pick would work as well.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Scrappile

[OCtoolguy]

29 minutes ago, Scrappile said:

Les, maybe you already do this, if not give it a try, sharpen the top end of the blades.  I quickly grind the ends of every blade to a sharp point, then I have a little tool like an ice pick with out a big handle that I stick into each hole on the back side of the piece and twist it a little, kinda like counter sink it.  Makes it much easier to thread the blade through. I thread 2/0 size blades through holes drilled with a bit as small as a #70 often.  This is the little tool I use, I don't know what it is called.  It was my wife's, she used it on her job when she worked for the phone company as a frame tech.  I think that was 35 years a go!  An ice pick would work as well.

That looks like a machinist's scribe and General Hardware sells them. I've got a passel of them. A wonderful tool for so many things. I've even used it to scribe a line. LOL.

 

[OCtoolguy]

1 hour ago, Rockytime said:

I don't want to hijack a thread so I'm starting over. There is a discussion about the Hegner boss that prevents the upper arm from lifting too high. A solution was to cut the boss from the casting and drill and tap for a lower boss. The Hawk has a boss but not cast as part of the frame. It is just a 1/4-20 bolt with a rubber tubing over it to provide a cushion. I'm cutting a pattern that needs #60 drill holes. I'm using a #1 blade and am frustrated trying to thread the holes. I can drill a new hole and replace the boss lower. Have any of the Hawk owners here done this? I don't want to buy another saw to top feed.

Les, if your saw is out of warranty and you think that is the answer to your problem, why not just do it? It sounds plausible to me.

 

[kmmcrafts]

Les My old 220VS Hawk someone must have taken the stopper off.. as that one the arm goes WAY up.. in fact when I broke a blade one day the arm sprung up and busted my light bulb in my magnifier, LOL Being it was my first Hawk I didn't know it was supposed to be there.. Then when I got my Hawk 226 the arm didn't go up very high.. I never gave it a lot of thought until just about a week ago when I was doing a bigger project the the arm was always in my way.. to fix it... I just switch over to the 220VS.. but then started having a blade breaking issue.. My fault of coarse LOL.. anyway long story short I switch back to the 226.. even with the arm not going all the way up.. Finally when i had enough I started investigating what the heck it was hitting.. LOL.. I had thought about doing just what you was talking about.. But do note.. while it does help some.. the accessory arm then gets in the way.. or.. the blower tube, LOL 

I don't know if anyone else had done this or not.. but I'm considering either drilling that or making a L shape bracket and cut the bolt shorter so then provided you position the bracket correctly would let the arm come down a little farther.. this way you can possibly adjust it? Otherwise drilling holes might turn it into swiss cheese before you get a desirable distance, like they say.. measure once cut twice.. or was that measure twice cut three times, LOL  

Edited February 8, 2019 by kmmcrafts

[Rockytime]

The accessory does get in the way. My Lock-Line blower is on a swing arm. My light is pretty low and could be in the way if I took out the bolt. Thanks.

[Scrappile]

14 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

That looks like a machinist's scribe and General Hardware sells them. I've got a passel of them. A wonderful tool for so many things. I've even used it to scribe a line. LOL.

 

Ha, thanks, it must be.  I just took it upstairs and asked my wife what she used it for.... she says she has never seen one before in her life and what am I talking about.  I guess I have no idea where I got it, but it is a handy item.

[kmmcrafts]

You probably could make a slot in a piece of angle iron and bolt it into the same bolt hole and use a shorter bolt so it doesn't still hit the bolt.. Then put a soft piece of molding ( maybe car door edge trim? ) or a couple beads of RTV silicone to sort of cushion it so you don't damage the upper arm..  

[Rockytime]

It's easy to just drill a hole.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Have no answer for you because I am a bottom feeder .

[kmmcrafts]

I think we're all talking about bottom feeding because we all have the older Hawks that I believe are all bottom feed only saws.. The older saws the upper arm goes up higher.. after looking more closely at my old 220 VS it does in fact have the stop on it.. it's just down there a long way and I didn't see it at first.. The Newer ones the stop is placed up much higher and not allowing the arm to go up all that high..  It'd be a bit easier to use if the stop was 1/4 - 1/2" down farther.. as it's not horrible but certainly is in the way some.. that old Hawk goes up so high that the next thing in the way is the accessory arm.. or the blower tube depending on how you angle the tube.. 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Can someone shoot a photo of this so called stop. I have had my saws for quite some time and am not aware of this or its purpose. I must have mis read this thread and do not comprehend this. I like the way my arm goes up and out of the way. I did at one time have an instance that Kevin did with the bulb breaking. But I now have fluorescents that have a plastic cover over the lamps so that is not happening any more. 

[kmmcrafts]

Not sure this short video will post but here is what we are talking about. 

[kmmcrafts]

Just in case the video don’t work here are some pictures. 

Note the height difference between the old saw and the ultra. 

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

The video did not work so what you are saying the old saw as you call it is pre?????? I assume I have an old saw because I have that much room. Not sure what that orange block is in the last photo so I am guessing that is a newer ultra saw. Those saws are designed to cut both top and bottom feeding???  I am not following this line of questioning here. I need to go back and reread.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Ok I had to go take a look and have to say I had no idea that that was there and knew nothing about it. On mine I have a bolt that is drilled through the frame and has a rubber washer on it to prevent the arm going higher. learned something today. and they call that a boss???  I suppose if you take that out the arm can rise as far as the spring lets it. I suppose you can redrill the hole and move the bolt to adjust with height. My saw rises to 5" to bottom of clamp and table top closer to the second photo. 

 

Now armed with this knowledge what is the question and why is this an issue?? How does this affect top feeding and bottom feeding??  I am going to assume you want the arm higher yet to top feed. If so take the bolt out or redrill. But that would be such a pain to fumble under there trying to catch that bottom clamp. The newer saws that bottom clamp is fixed in a more stable position to thread the blade through.

[kmmcrafts]

21 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

The video did not work so what you are saying the old saw as you call it is pre?????? I assume I have an old saw because I have that much room. Not sure what that orange block is in the last photo so I am guessing that is a newer ultra saw. Those saws are designed to cut both top and bottom feeding???  I am not following this line of questioning here. I need to go back and reread.

I'll try to explain some of this to clarify.. 

The first picture shows a bolt sticking through the side of the saw at the back.. just below the upper arm.. This bolt has a rubber sleeve covering the threads to cushion the blow from the arm coming down and hitting it once you release the blade or break a blade..

Pic #2 is the measurement of the  distance between the saw table and the upper arm raised up.. This is on my old saw 1993 220VS old enough to use the round lower clamps.. 

Pic #3 is the distance on my newer ( 1998 226 ultra.) that has the square type clamps.. ( I believe like your saw JT as I recall you having a bent pin on one of your clamps )

As for why does it affect threading the blade.. I'm taking my experience ( Bottom feeding ) it's difficult to raise the lumber up high enough on larger projects when your trying to catch a hole way out in the middle of the project.. to see and or just thread the blade through.. If your arm goes up higher.. you can raise the lumber up at a steeper angle and easier to see and thread the blade.. Many times one can raise a different side of the board to get better angle to see and thread the blade.. 

Edit: That orange box is just the bottom of my tape measure that got caught in the picture.

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by kmmcrafts

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I have the first picture saw.  Have the bolt and rubber sleeve. I understand the principle behind top and bottom feeding But my saw and anyone else who has that saw it is not a top feeding saw. Can not be done with accuracy and thus they came out with a new saw and I have no idea what they call their saws now.  As far as bottom feeding large projects, how often do you do that? A blade will flex so much that you can easily thread in any hole. I have been a bottom feeder all my scrollsawing life and have scrolled all size projects including ones bigger than my saw would allow but you adapt.   

 

So I am having a hard time following Rockys question. If he is going to top feed with that saw he will not be able to do it. You have to have a device to hold the arm down to play games with the blade holder underneath. Again I am not following this whole thread. 

 

Back to you Kevin, you are saying on the saws that had the round holders they did not have that (boss) or stop??? I have cut on those saws before I bought mine which is an ultra but I have no idea what the newer saws are called. Have to look it up. Aren't you buying a new saw or did buy one??

Edited February 8, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

55 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

I have the first picture saw.  Have the bolt and rubber sleeve. I understand the principle behind top and bottom feeding But my saw and anyone else who has that saw it is not a top feeding saw. Can not be done with accuracy and thus they came out with a new saw and I have no idea what they call their saws now.  As far as bottom feeding large projects, how often do you do that? A blade will flex so much that you can easily thread in any hole. I have been a bottom feeder all my scrollsawing life and have scrolled all size projects including ones bigger than my saw would allow but you adapt.   

 

So I am having a hard time following Rockys question. If he is going to top feed with that saw he will not be able to do it. You have to have a device to hold the arm down to play games with the blade holder underneath. Again I am not following this whole thread. 

 

Back to you Kevin, you are saying on the saws that had the round holders they did not have that (boss) or stop??? I have cut on those saws before I bought mine which is an ultra but I have no idea what the newer saws are called. Have to look it up. Aren't you buying a new saw or did buy one??

JT  The older Hawk also has the same style bolt with rubber over it.. I didn't think it did at first.. but it does.. just down there farther and harder to see.. 

 

I think Rocky is bottom feeding as well...  And yes while the blade is flexible and moves around easily.. it is still more difficult to do the feeding of the blade on those larger projects.. You having saw experience for so many years and doing large projects on the same saw that you're used to running it probably just comes natural to you.. It mostly does for me too.. but switching from one saw to the other that the arms go up a different amount I can certainly say that if the arm goes up slightly higher it is in fact easier.. still can be done either saw.. and running just the one saw I've gotten used to that.. 

Yes I did order a new Hawk.. BM-226 basically the same as the older saw like you and I have with the exception of the arms coming out in front of the angle adjustment and a few other changes.. I haven't received it yet.. but plan to do some talking / video about it once I do get it and start assembling it etc.  

[Rockytime]

Kevin, you did an excellent job of discussing this. I'm going out to the shop now and do some measuring. Thank you.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

JT  The older Hawk also has the same style bolt with rubber over it.. I didn't think it did at first.. but it does.. just down there farther and harder to see.. 

 

I think Rocky is bottom feeding as well...  And yes while the blade is flexible and moves around easily.. it is still more difficult to do the feeding of the blade on those larger projects.. You having saw experience for so many years and doing large projects on the same saw that you're used to running it probably just comes natural to you.. It mostly does for me too.. but switching from one saw to the other that the arms go up a different amount I can certainly say that if the arm goes up slightly higher it is in fact easier.. still can be done either saw.. and running just the one saw I've gotten used to that.. 

Yes I did order a new Hawk.. BM-226 basically the same as the older saw like you and I have with the exception of the arms coming out in front of the angle adjustment and a few other changes.. I haven't received it yet.. but plan to do some talking / video about it once I do get it and start assembling it etc.  

Does that saw allow for both top and bottom feed???  OK yes give us a detailed report on the new saw. Not that I am ever buying another saw but for my own interest would be nice to hear an experienced scroller talk about it. I bet Hawk would love to hear the report too from you. Again back to Rocky you still can not top feed on the saws we have no matter how high the arm goes up. Another inch of height is going to make that much of a difference just does not register with me unless he is talking something totally different. Hope he weighs in here because I think we are both guessing what he is talking about. and his intentions or desires.  

[kmmcrafts]

37 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Does that saw allow for both top and bottom feed???  OK yes give us a detailed report on the new saw. Not that I am ever buying another saw but for my own interest would be nice to hear an experienced scroller talk about it. I bet Hawk would love to hear the report too from you. Again back to Rocky you still can not top feed on the saws we have no matter how high the arm goes up. Another inch of height is going to make that much of a difference just does not register with me unless he is talking something totally different. Hope he weighs in here because I think we are both guessing what he is talking about. and his intentions or desires.  

Yes, the new Hawks are top or bottom feeders.. highly unlikely I'll top feed as I've always been a bottom feeder.. the deWalt and the Excalibur I have is both top or bottom feed... and I tried to do top feeding but just couldn't get the hang of it.. I do want to try it again though sometime when I've got time to just play around in the shop.. Not too much playing out there this time of year other than making what I have to or sometimes it's not to bad but then I just wanna cut instead of play around.. LOL 

[Rockytime]

2 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Does that saw allow for both top and bottom feed???  OK yes give us a detailed report on the new saw. Not that I am ever buying another saw but for my own interest would be nice to hear an experienced scroller talk about it. I bet Hawk would love to hear the report too from you. Again back to Rocky you still can not top feed on the saws we have no matter how high the arm goes up. Another inch of height is going to make that much of a difference just does not register with me unless he is talking something totally different. Hope he weighs in here because I think we are both guessing what he is talking about. and his intentions or desires.  

Hi JT. I don't want to top feed. Bottom feeding works for me. When I saw the Hegner modification I thought what a great idea. If I did that I would gain a little extra space to allow me to lift the wood a little higher and make it a little easier to thread the blade. However measuring my saw I could gain about one and a quarter inch before hitting the accessory arm. I was drilling with a #60 drill and trying to thread a #1 blade through the hole. I solved my problem by using a #55 drill and a #3 blade. So now all this becomes academic. I guess I caused a "Tempest in a Tea Pot." Anyway I enjoyed the interaction. Lots of camaraderie here.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

6 hours ago, Rockytime said:

Hi JT. I don't want to top feed. Bottom feeding works for me. When I saw the Hegner modification I thought what a great idea. If I did that I would gain a little extra space to allow me to lift the wood a little higher and make it a little easier to thread the blade. However measuring my saw I could gain about one and a quarter inch before hitting the accessory arm. I was drilling with a #60 drill and trying to thread a #1 blade through the hole. I solved my problem by using a #55 drill and a #3 blade. So now all this becomes academic. I guess I caused a "Tempest in a Tea Pot." Anyway I enjoyed the interaction. Lots of camaraderie here.

No problem Les. I just did not get the drift of the discussion I guess and we went into top feeding on the RBI and it is not possible at least not without alot of modifications. If i am doing a large project I have to stand anyway to cut it out because I can not spin the piece with my body in the way. So it is easy to bend over and see the holes anyway. I always use a larger bit if I can get away with it. Never a standard size for me. Alot has to be the area being cut. If i have a large area why struggle with a tiny hole. Anyway good luck. I learned something from this thread anyway. I have a Boss.

[Rolf]

The G4 (2005 vintage) allows top and bottom feeding. With some of the very detailed larger fretwork projects I have been doing lately. I needed to drill very small holes #70 (.028") the top feeding really made things a lot easier on my neck and back. 

Thanks Les (aka Rockytime) for starting a great discussion.