Scroll saws with little or no vibration at full speed

[annis]

I'm looking for a scroll saw that I can place a nickle(US) on edge on the table and it not fall over even at full speed. I think the Excalibre or King industries 16" might be a possibility also. I don't know the Jet might be good also.

There is so much confusion about these saws right now. Distributor is not the same as manufacturer. I think that all these saws are made in China or Taiwan. Not to diss these countries, they an make good equipment if that is what the distributor wants.

The experience I've had with scroll saws is that when turned on, they would walk across the tab....Even when bolted down!

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Hello Bill and welcome to the site. Good luck in your search for that saw. just my opinion, all saws will have some vibration and depending how you set them up can have an effect to decrease this. Of course some are worse than others and within each brand and size can be some worse than others. But you can safely say the bigger $$$ saws will be better tuned. But again even they have that speed that creates harmonics and it causes some vibration. We scrollers usually adjust speed to get past this. Not many people run their saws wide open. I run mine a little past half way on the dial. lets me control the cut better plus on the RBI it does have that vibration thing at top speed. Good luck.

[Foxfold]

As has been said, I think all saws have their 'sweet' spot, I know mine does, although I don't ever run it at 'full speed' either.

Welcome to the Village by the way.

[CharleyL]

Why would you ever want to run at full speed? I run at whatever speed is best for the pattern and blade that I am using. I also run just below the speed that causes burning of the wood being cut. As the blade dulls I run a bit slower to keep from burning and then go back to the slightly higher speed after I replace the blade. If you overheat the blade it will remove the blade temper and the blade will break or dull faster. Keep from overheating the blade and it will last much longer. If the blade is changing color to blue, you are overheating the blade. I also apply paraffin wax frequently to lubricate and cool the blade. At the correct speed I get very little vibration from my DeWalt 788 and go much longer between bearing replacement too.

Charley  

[WayneMahler]

I don't run my saw at full speed. As said all saws have a sweet spot. The higher $$ saws are built with tighter tolerances and better components and can be tuned better. My EX 21 runs about mid point with very little if any vibration. 

[Scrappile]

@CharleyL I have heard of putting wax on the blade several times over the year.  Doen't that affect finishing, like you get wax on the wood while cutting?  Finish won't stick to wax.  I have never tried it.

 

[tgiro]

The "nickle test" never impressed me. My saw (2012 vintage EX-21) would let me balance a nickle at high speed - but - as soon as you touch a piece of wood to the blade, the nickle will fly.

1. I never cut at the highest speed - I'm normally at the 75% - 90% range.

2. I have since set my table at a sloping angle to the front, so a nickle wouldn't balance any more anyway.

All scroll saws vibrate - a few much less than others, but the real test is while you are cutting wood, not while it is just running with no cutting.

[kmmcrafts]

As has been said.. You can tweak and tune a saw to run smooth at different speeds.. I personally don't run any of my saws less than half way.. most run at just shy of full speed.. All of my saws would pass the nickle test because I've taken time to adjust and do little tricks to get them to run that way.. I won't say they'll all pass this nickle test through the whole speed range from slow to fast.. I will say.. the DeWalt and the Excalibur I have running smooth throughout the speed range and I'm certain they'd pass the nickle test.. I think my dewalt is probably the smoothest running saw I have.. I know this one will pass.. and Ii know the Hawks would fail at some of the speeds.. but they run real smooth in the speed range that I like to cut at so I don't care much about those slower speeds.. 

 

Edit to add: The biggest fail of a saw vibrating in my experience is nothing to o with the saw itself.. It's more to do with the stand it's mounted too.. My Excalibur vibrated pretty bad at certain speeds when I first set it up.. But after tweaking the stand to have all four legs planted firmly onto the ground I have it to a point now where I'm certain it'd pass the test throughout the speed range.. 

Edited March 2, 2019 by kmmcrafts

[Bill WIlson]

My Excalibur won't pass the nickel test at any speed, because I have the saw tilted forward and the table waxed.  I don't know if the nickel would stay on if laid flat. 

[OCtoolguy]

First off, welcome to the SSV. I know you will gain a ton of knowledge here. I know for sure I did and still do.

 

I agree with Kevin in that the saw once tuned is only so good. The way it is mounted makes a huge difference. It must be rock solid. I have built wooden stands for both my Dewalt and my EX21. They also both sit on foam rubber floor matting. No vibration at all or little to none. Both saws have a "sweet spot" where I tend to do most of my cutting. As CharleyL said, the choice of wood and the blade will determine the cutting speed.

 

Edited March 2, 2019 by octoolguy

[RangerJay]

In my own experience if you are obsessive about tweeking and fine tuning a quality saw to minimize vibration you will get a reasonably satisfactory result at most speeds - but will still get some level of vibration outside the "sweet" spot - to get to the next level - (as close to 100% vibration free as possible) - depends on the mounting.  My Excalibur has been mounted on three benches - the latest is a massive wooden bench (not so much in size but definitely in weight) - it is a literal brute of a thing to have to move .... I can tell you the saw loves it - runs smooth as silk - no genuine  vibration at all - not sure it would pass the nickel test - (also have it mounted on an angle) - but have to admit that since mounting on this bench it is a joy to run at any speed.

Jay

[trackman]

My EX 21 has no noticeable vibration at any speed. I run mine full speed unless cutting thin wood. Than set half or less. Been scrolling for 10 years an haven’t had a blade break. Some blades have come out of the clamps due to wear or dirt. 

[lawson56]

The only saw I have had that vibrated that bad was my old PC,and only after I had id for a couple of yrs,The others I have had never vibrated hardly at all,my new Delta is a smooth runner.

[kmmcrafts]

18 hours ago, tgiro said:

The "nickle test" never impressed me. My saw (2012 vintage EX-21) would let me balance a nickle at high speed - but - as soon as you touch a piece of wood to the blade, the nickle will fly.

1. I never cut at the highest speed - I'm normally at the 75% - 90% range.

2. I have since set my table at a sloping angle to the front, so a nickle wouldn't balance any more anyway.

All scroll saws vibrate - a few much less than others, but the real test is while you are cutting wood, not while it is just running with no cutting.

Again, a true tuned saw shouldn't vibrate much if any different while cutting.. A blade forward / rearward adjustment is what comes to my mind when you mention this.. My Excalibur did the same until I actually tuned the forward / rearward blade motion by moving the motor.. While the saw cut pretty good.. without doing this.. it was considerable smother once I did this.. Mine was far enough off that I had to take the motor bolts right out and move them to the next set of slotted holes.. 

[CharleyL]

On 3/2/2019 at 11:11 AM, Scrappile said:

@CharleyL I have heard of putting wax on the blade several times over the year.  Doen't that affect finishing, like you get wax on the wood while cutting?  Finish won't stick to wax.  I have never tried it.

 

I've never had a problem with paraffin wax on my saw blades affecting the finishing of my work, so little stays on the blade anyway, but it fills the pores of the blade metal and makes a smoother blade surface reducing the friction and letting the blade run cooler. A cooler blade lasts longer, It also reduces the problem of the saw dust sticking in the gullets of the teeth, so the blade remains cleaner. For best results, I reapply a little after about  about every five minutes of cutting and always before beginning cutting with a new blade. To apply, I just cut into the block of wax a very short distance. Then move it a little side to side and then remove the block. I then rub it against the back edge of the blade. I now use paraffin blocks purchased in the canning section of grocery stores. A box of it will likely last you 20 years, if you don't store it in a high heat area. If you do, it will become one very large block of wax and you will need to saw pieces off of it to use it conveniently. It will still be usable though. I usually loose or give pieces away at trade shows and classes long before I use them up, and I still have about 1/2 of the last box that I bought left. Out of the box each piece is about  2 1/2 X 2 1/2 X 3/4, so I cut each one in half as I need more and then work with just the half piece. Old broken candles work well for this too.

I also wax the table of my scroll saw using Johnson's Paste Wax before using the scroll saw each day, It makes the work slide easily on the saw table. I do the same with all of my woodworking tool tables, but do it less often, maybe every month or so, or if I realize that my work isn't sliding as easily as it should. Again, it's never been a problem with finishes on my work caused by this waxing, but I always sand my work as a final step before finishing, so if there is any wax on the surface it will be sanded off.  I suppose, if I left a thick layer on the saw table, it might cause problems, but I always apply it, let it dry to a haze, and then wipe off the excess. All it's doing is filling the pores of the metal and making the surface more slippery. A second benefit is that it prevents humidity caused rust from forming on the cast iron tables. It won't do much to prevent rust from heavy condensation or a water leak though.

I've been doing both of these practices for about the past 65 years without experiencing any wax caused finishing problems.

Charley

 

[kmmcrafts]

I also wax my tables quite regularly.. not every day.. but.. all my saw tables get waxed about every week.. even if I'm not using that saw.. and about once a month I wax all the tables on all woodworking tools.. not only the table but fences and guards that the wood passes through get waxed too.. and about two times a year.. i also wax the entire machine and stands just to do a nice cleaning.. the dust doesn't stick to the stands and equipment by doing this.. then this makes cleaning up easier.. just vac / sweep the floors.. because the dust slides off the equipment onto the floor for the most part.. 

one day when it warms up.. I'm going to hook up some dust collection systems to my saws etc..for an easier yet clean up..

I've never waxed the blades.. I keep beeswax for making my homemade finish.. so I think I might give this a try on my scroll saw blades.. Somewhere I've seen a wax stick for scroll saw blade lubricant.. can't remember what website it was on now.. but they also sold blades..    

[fredfret]

I've used the blade lube a few times for thick wood. Not convinced it helps.  It did not appear to affect the finish if I remember. 

[jollyred]

My DeWalt 788 has never had much of a vibration problem, but it has even less now.  I broke down last month and took it apart and lubed all the bearings.  Took me some time, but that's just me.  However, it now runs even smoother than it did before.

[annis]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies! I'm impressed and lucky to find such a knowledgeable group! 

Well at present I have a 25 year old Craftsman that I bought new. It used to run fairly decent but with a little vibration I haven't used it in several years and was disappointed when I turned it on and ran it through the speeds and near the top end it was vibrating so bad I turned it off for inspection. The tension had vibrated loose  It has a small knob on top  to adjust tension I retightened it but didn't have enough strength in my fingers to get it taunt. I could push the blade with my fingers and it would go back and forth about half an inch. It is a Craftsman built in the day when Craftsman stood for quality. I suspect that it is a Delta, rebranded to Craftsman. It's a large saw and it came with a stand. I think I paid $300US for it back then. I tried to saw a little 1/8 whitewood with it ant slow medium and fast speeds but it would barely cut. I'm going to buy some blades tomorrow at Lowes or HD and see if thats the problem although it vibrates bad when I'm not cutting anything  If I could get it working with minimal vibration I could save myself a $1000

I'd show pictures but I can't get farther back the about 18 inches from the saw! [EDIT] found a manual online with a picture of the saw on front!

https://c.searspartsdirect.com/mmh/lis_pdf/OWNM/L0804184.pdf

Thinking about it, that SS was a pain to change blades on! I wish I could try some of these cheaper saws at Lowes first, I might fine one with acceptable vibration but they are not set up to do that

Edited March 4, 2019 by annis

[teachnlearn]

On 3/2/2019 at 1:18 PM, kmmcrafts said:

As has been said.. You can tweak and tune a saw to run smooth at different speeds.. I personally don't run any of my saws less than half way.. most run at just shy of full speed.. All of my saws would pass the nickle test because I've taken time to adjust and do little tricks to get them to run that way.. I won't say they'll all pass this nickle test through the whole speed range from slow to fast.. I will say.. the DeWalt and the Excalibur I have running smooth throughout the speed range and I'm certain they'd pass the nickle test.. I think my dewalt is probably the smoothest running saw I have.. I know this one will pass.. and Ii know the Hawks would fail at some of the speeds.. but they run real smooth in the speed range that I like to cut at so I don't care much about those slower speeds.. 

 

Edit to add: The biggest fail of a saw vibrating in my experience is nothing to o with the saw itself.. It's more to do with the stand it's mounted too.. My Excalibur vibrated pretty bad at certain speeds when I first set it up.. But after tweaking the stand to have all four legs planted firmly onto the ground I have it to a point now where I'm certain it'd pass the test throughout the speed range.. 

Just replied on introduction sound transmission. Vibration is transmitted straight through metal easily. The vibration is a factor of "sound strength", the mass of the substance it's going through and isolation. "Build tolerances and balance" are qualities of any machine which lows the strength of the vibration. When a machine has isolation, such as large rubber .groments at the motor, rubber grommets at all moving parts and rubber feet, this would be "isolation" , US submarines have pipes and decking all strapped with isolation bumpers to isolate the sound. The "mass" or what we call weight is a factor. You mention a stand, which you are adding weight.  Construction glue a vibrating cell phone to a large heavy table and see if that baby has the same vibration. It's the additional weight, which is why we are so frustrated with the "junk plastic' We get for so many shop tools. Buy a 15,000 dollar lathe and see what the weight of that beast will be.  When you cut the wood on this lathe the weight will keep it rock solid in place, no vibration.

Mount a vise on a folding table and clamp rebar in it and hammer it over. Now "an auto garage did this", take a 55-gallon drum fill it with concrete and mount the vise to the concrete. Now you can beat the rebar into a pretzel and the drum and vise will be stable. Again large weight and little vibration. Basic example with extreme figures to demonstrate the principle. Rick RJF

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, teachnlearn said:

Just replied on introduction sound transmission. Vibration is transmitted straight through metal easily. The vibration is a factor of "sound strength", the mass of the substance it's going through and isolation. "Build tolerances and balance" are qualities of any machine which lows the strength of the vibration. When a machine has isolation, such as large rubber .groments at the motor, rubber grommets at all moving parts and rubber feet, this would be "isolation" , US submarines have pipes and decking all strapped with isolation bumpers to isolate the sound. The "mass" or what we call weight is a factor. You mention a stand, which you are adding weight.  Construction glue a vibrating cell phone to a large heavy table and see if that baby has the same vibration. It's the additional weight, which is why we are so frustrated with the "junk plastic' We get for so many shop tools. Buy a 15,000 dollar lathe and see what the weight of that beast will be.  When you cut the wood on this lathe the weight will keep it rock solid in place, no vibration.

Mount a vise on a folding table and clamp rebar in it and hammer it over. Now "an auto garage did this", take a 55-gallon drum fill it with concrete and mount the vise to the concrete. Now you can beat the rebar into a pretzel and the drum and vise will be stable. Again large weight and little vibration. Basic example with extreme figures to demonstrate the principle. Rick RJF

I've never added any weight to any of my saws.. nor have I had the need to.. Now that said.. I did at one time years ago add some carpet padding between the saw and stand on a Dremel 1800 saw I had.. helped a lot..on that old saw.. but my Dewalt, Excalibur and both my Hawks just needed the legs planted firmly to the floor.. by loosening the bolts of the stand and letting things settle to the floor where they are parked.. this is greatly important.. and even just moving the saw slightly can sometimes pick up some vibration simply because its not parked where it was adjusted at / to.. My new shop has a real smooth and level concrete floor.. this isn't quite as much an issue in the new shop.. old shop had concrete floor as well but was one of those DYI jobs that shows when you're setting up things on it like this.. to look at it.. it looks good and flat.. but it's not..lol  

[teachnlearn]

One of my backgrounds is electronic engineering which I dealt with very small electronic components. After being in that field for years my college study of physics, mechanics, fluid dynamics is not as keen, though I try to keep a basic grasp. My field was automation so I would pull the books on the specifics. I'm writing on the fly so I could be off. When you mentioned a "stand" I assumed, "ups", that it was a solid triangle base stand used in shop machines. I'm disabled now and the brain still spins, so I approach problems and look for solutions. Your scroll saw may very well be constructed well and need little.

I've got a Craftsman contractors model that is heavy, but their design has an arm that rattles away. Horrible noise, but little vibration on the table. Had just posted a note in the introduction on handling scroll saw noise in an apartment and might have had some sound theories still rattling in my brain.  I quoted yours to give an example of weight, hopefully not to offend but to continue an example. Designing our vibration and sound is a constant problem while the cost people cheapen the materials.

My apologies if my post somehow came across as accusing.  RJF

[kmmcrafts]

I didn't take any offense to your reply.. I was just merely stating that I've never needed to add weight to any of my saws.. and I would guess that a lot of people wouldn't need to either IF they set up their saw and level it to the spot where the saw will be parked at..  The DeWalt is the only saw I have that has a three legged stand.. others are four legged.. 

[teachnlearn]

Haven't had a new machine since my purchase in 1975. My wife has the checkbook and its very tough to convince her. Until this scroll saw dies, I only get to look. RJF

[Old Joe]

On 3/3/2019 at 8:32 PM, jollyred said:

My DeWalt 788 has never had much of a vibration problem, but it has even less now.  I broke down last month and took it apart and lubed all the bearings.  Took me some time, but that's just me.  However, it now runs even smoother than it did before.

I did the same thing a couple of months ago. I used synthetic grease. I also switched to Pegas blade clamps. The overall difference was dramatic. It was like I had a much finer piece of equipment.If I had known how much improvement the synthetic grease made I would’ve done it long ago. Dewalt picked a weird thing to cut corners on with the factory grease used.