First Run On The New Hawk

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

20 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

I was told by a very astute person many years ago to NEVER TRY TO TURN A HOBBY INTO A BUSINESS! You'll ruin both.

 

What are you talking about?? Every business starts as a hobby. 

I took scrolling and made it into a business at one time. I doubt that astute person. Have another discussion with them. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[OCtoolguy]

18 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

What are you talking about?? Every business starts as a hobby. 

I took scrolling and made it into a business at one time. I doubt that astute person. Have another discussion with them. 

I disagree with you this time JT. I have known many folks who have tried to turn a hobby into a business and before long they hated what they were doing. A gunsmith friend comes to mind. He loved doing it for a hobby in his garage but as soon as he hung out his shingle, the whole world changed. All of a sudden he had the heavy shackles of the government looking down at him. Not much fun when you have to all of a sudden file necessary paperwork. And to be expected to do it over and over again. Well that just ain't right. Remember, I live in "The People's Republic of California".

 

[kmmcrafts]

I see both sides of the spectrum on the hobby / business topic.. I've been on both sides of that coin few times..

I love taking an old crappy looking car and restore it.. done many cars in my days.. turned it into a business for a few years and the work involved took the fun out of it.. The EPA and all the regulations in place for paint fumes and exhaust filtration systems regulations for excess paints disposal and fees etc.. turn the work into a nightmare.. Many shops around that do "low key " activities that skip a lot of the real legal way of doing business.. I'm not one to do wrong things and look the other way... just not how I was raised or who I am.. I shut down the business after about  years of headache.. not worth it.. to me anyway.. was good money though..

Doing my scroll work as a hobby and turning it into business isn't going to get me rich in money... but I'm much more happy running this gig than any other business's I've started and run.. this stuff has very low overhead.. no real expensive equipment really needed.. There is something to be said to be your own boss and work your own schedule.. But the real deal for me is happiness.. I can't have the flexible schedule and make the money I make doing something I enjoy at any "Job "... All "Jobs " are almost always a headache.. in some way shape or form. The business side also has headaches.. But I'm in control of how bad that headache is.. It's not always smiles and happy times.. but 95% of it is.. and I've never had a job that was anywhere near made me 95% happy all the time..    

[OCtoolguy]

36 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I see both sides of the spectrum on the hobby / business topic.. I've been on both sides of that coin few times..

I love taking an old crappy looking car and restore it.. done many cars in my days.. turned it into a business for a few years and the work involved took the fun out of it.. The EPA and all the regulations in place for paint fumes and exhaust filtration systems regulations for excess paints disposal and fees etc.. turn the work into a nightmare.. Many shops around that do "low key " activities that skip a lot of the real legal way of doing business.. I'm not one to do wrong things and look the other way... just not how I was raised or who I am.. I shut down the business after about  years of headache.. not worth it.. to me anyway.. was good money though..

Doing my scroll work as a hobby and turning it into business isn't going to get me rich in money... but I'm much more happy running this gig than any other business's I've started and run.. this stuff has very low overhead.. no real expensive equipment really needed.. There is something to be said to be your own boss and work your own schedule.. But the real deal for me is happiness.. I can't have the flexible schedule and make the money I make doing something I enjoy at any "Job "... All "Jobs " are almost always a headache.. in some way shape or form. The business side also has headaches.. But I'm in control of how bad that headache is.. It's not always smiles and happy times.. but 95% of it is.. and I've never had a job that was anywhere near made me 95% happy all the time..    

Kevin, I think the difference is in whether your "business" has to bring in enough to pay your bills and support itself. If you are lucky enough to have a primary income from another source, then the "hobby/business" has the breathing room to let you be flexible in operating it. Somehow, I think if you HAD to depend on what your "hobby/business" generates in order to live, it would all of a sudden become a "hobby/business/nightmare". What you are doing is the only way I would ever consider doing it. If I can sell some of the stuff I love making, then that's fine. I have a way to offset the expense of my hobby. But to have to make enough every month to pay for all of our bills? Well that would soon be no fun. Especially if the weather was against me. I'm a very "mild weather" person.

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

9 hours ago, octoolguy said:

I disagree with you this time JT. I have known many folks who have tried to turn a hobby into a business and before long they hated what they were doing. A gunsmith friend comes to mind. He loved doing it for a hobby in his garage but as soon as he hung out his shingle, the whole world changed. All of a sudden he had the heavy shackles of the government looking down at him. Not much fun when you have to all of a sudden file necessary paperwork. And to be expected to do it over and over again. Well that just ain't right. Remember, I live in "The People's Republic of California".

 

Ray you can disagree and I will disagree with you and my reason is you did not want it to be a business nor did your friends If you want to take your hobby to the next level of a business then you do what it takes to get it there. Half hearted attempts will get you 0. They made a half hearted attempt plain and simple. Did not want to do the work and blame government and anything else. How did Gates get started. How many businesses started out of a basement or a garage because they were driven. This hobby is not self sustaining enough to become a full time business. There is not enough customers to make it a business. Yes people like Kevin can make some money doing it but it is not sustainable. Those customers coming back over and over far and few between.  He is constantly looking for new customers. I use him as an example because he is the only one here who has made an attempt at a business and that said he is a one man business. I stand by my thought every business was at one time someone's hobby. 

When I said I did scrolling and had a business it was similar to what Kevin is doing now but I knew and could see over the years the decline for the work we do. Not even close today what it was 10, 15 or 20 years ago. I had a good job that I did like to go to every day but did enough scrolling on the side that I was forced to call it a business. yes it was work and yes the gov. had their hands in the till but that is life. I got out because as I said it was not sustainable and if someone says it is they are kidding themselves. yes you can make a few dollars if you push yourself. It will not fall in your lap. 

[OCtoolguy]

2 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Ray you can disagree and I will disagree with you and my reason is you did not want it to be a business nor did your friends If you want to take your hobby to the next level of a business then you do what it takes to get it there. Half hearted attempts will get you 0. They made a half hearted attempt plain and simple. Did not want to do the work and blame government and anything else. How did Gates get started. How many businesses started out of a basement or a garage because they were driven. This hobby is not self sustaining enough to become a full time business. There is not enough customers to make it a business. Yes people like Kevin can make some money doing it but it is not sustainable. Those customers coming back over and over far and few between.  He is constantly looking for new customers. I use him as an example because he is the only one here who has made an attempt at a business and that said he is a one man business. I stand by my thought every business was at one time someone's hobby. 

When I said I did scrolling and had a business it was similar to what Kevin is doing now but I knew and could see over the years the decline for the work we do. Not even close today what it was 10, 15 or 20 years ago. I had a good job that I did like to go to every day but did enough scrolling on the side that I was forced to call it a business. yes it was work and yes the gov. had their hands in the till but that is life. I got out because as I said it was not sustainable and if someone says it is they are kidding themselves. yes you can make a few dollars if you push yourself. It will not fall in your lap. 

We must agree to disagree. Ain't life grand?

 

[ScollSaw Slasher]

I hate to get into this with the bullets flying but I never did duck an opinion. When Gates etc were mentioned, nothing like the personal computer existed. IBM, Xerox and the other big boys were locked into mainframes. So the time was ripe for new ways for personal computing besides the abacus, slide rule,pencil etc etc. Now scrolling is another matter. It's been around for thousands of years with only the machinery to create improving. Now I really enjoy seeing the creations that other scrollers show off in these pages, and am amazed at their technical and artistic abilities. But I probably wouldn't pay anyone for them since if it was that great, I'd try to do it myself. So I have to hand out kudos to Kevin for making it a viable business that he's happy with.

Now is it sustainable or turns in to drudgery, we'll find out in a few years. I'm pulling for you Kevin but I have found in my different attempts to make a buck, it all of a sudden gets old. But that's my nature I guess. Whether any career started out as a hobby (which I don't think many do) or just the need to put bread on the table by striking out on one's own, the pitfalls and problems are still the same. If we take a look at a mega corp like Apple and it didn't come up with the I Pad, I phone, I music., it would be a minuscule player ( if it even existed today) in the world of computers. So innovation is something that one somehow needs for a product that's been around for so many years. Enough of my rambling.

Blake

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 hour ago, ScollSaw Slasher said:

I hate to get into this with the bullets flying but I never did duck an opinion. When Gates etc were mentioned, nothing like the personal computer existed. IBM, Xerox and the other big boys were locked into mainframes. So the time was ripe for new ways for personal computing besides the abacus, slide rule,pencil etc etc. Now scrolling is another matter. It's been around for thousands of years with only the machinery to create improving. Now I really enjoy seeing the creations that other scrollers show off in these pages, and am amazed at their technical and artistic abilities. But I probably wouldn't pay anyone for them since if it was that great, I'd try to do it myself. So I have to hand out kudos to Kevin for making it a viable business that he's happy with.

Now is it sustainable or turns in to drudgery, we'll find out in a few years. I'm pulling for you Kevin but I have found in my different attempts to make a buck, it all of a sudden gets old. But that's my nature I guess. Whether any career started out as a hobby (which I don't think many do) or just the need to put bread on the table by striking out on one's own, the pitfalls and problems are still the same. If we take a look at a mega corp like Apple and it didn't come up with the I Pad, I phone, I music., it would be a minuscule player ( if it even existed today) in the world of computers. So innovation is something that one somehow needs for a product that's been around for so many years. Enough of my rambling.

Blake

No fighting or fireworks, just a discussion.  It is a discussion that sidetracked the original post which many times does. Others can disagree with me and that is fine. That is what the world is full of opinions. I have to disagree with your take too Blake in that we are or at least I was talking about hobbies and businesses. Gates had a hobby of tinkering with the electronic world and it went from there. Why because he put forth the effort. I bet he ran into a whole lot of problems. A career is different  which can grow from that business yes. You mention innovation, that can come from various sources such as a hobby, a career, or from a business. Innovation can grow a business but the root of it started with someone tinkering as a hobby. I go back to your opening statement about scrolling. yes it has been around many years but look at the businesses that grew from it. Pattern making continues to grow with different designs and people starting business based off that. But businesses like that need to expand and grow to be sustainable or else it goes by the waste side and becomes stale. Kevin needs to constantly change his product line or else he becomes stale and left behind. this requires work effort. Not many people are willing to make these commitments and thus the business fails. Another example is inventors. that is their hobby and it leads to things we eventually see. Maybe the word hobby is being misused. But I will bet every business started with someone tinkering in a shop somewhere. 

[ScollSaw Slasher]

Viva the tinkerers! Let us hope the new Hawk cuts thousands of projects for Kevin.

[OCtoolguy]

My last offering on the subject....it would be interesting to know how many hobbies that became businesses are/were successful and also remained "fun" and not "drudgery".

 

[kmmcrafts]

1 minute ago, octoolguy said:

My last offering on the subject....it would be interesting to know how many hobbies that became businesses are/were successful and also remained "fun" and not "drudgery".

 

According to a study I read a year or so ago... about 1% succeed at it.. I've failed 3 other business's.. due to the fact the actual "Process" wasn't fun..after going at it from a business standpoint.. I don't feel that way I my venture that I'm on now... YET anyway..

Some of you guys might find some interest in a person named Gary Vee He's on youtube and most other social sites.. FB Instagram twitter etc etc... I find his perspective of things very much in line of how I think of things.. and not many folks view finance, income, and happiness the same way I do.. I've said it before.. that there are people that can live a comfortable life on $30,000 a year.. and there are others that cannot live a life on 200,000 a year.. some of that is because they are chasing happiness and trying to keep up with the Jones.. LOL Get a minute and look for this Gary Vees video.. I'll warn you though.. He talks a bit like a sailor ( language ) if you're offended easily or have young ones around that shouldn't hear that.. If you're on FB look for him there too.. all his content is the same themed.. but different takes of the same subject across the different social sites.. so youtube might have longer videos than some of the other sites that he just does short clips..  

I've kinda kept my mouth / keyboard shut on this topic this time.. I disagree with many of the opinions posted here.. but it's real interesting to see others perspective on the subject.. I'd like to see more replies of others opinions. hopefully un-heated discussion... 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Ray I know 3 people who have started pen turning as a hobby and converted into a business and in fact 2 have developed a brand name and are seen at all large pen shows right there with the Mont Blancs of the world. Charge over $2000 for a single pen. That comes with name recognition. You are not getting that with scrolling fret work. Nobody said and for sure not me, that every business attempt was successful. The point I said was every business started as a hobby.

Maybe I am not making my point clear so I will back off. But Ray ask yourself this how many business are started another way and how many businesses are failed because of some reason and list the reasons in your head. I never said that everyone is cut out to be a business man. It takes drive and sometimes luck. Kevin is right about income and being able to live comfortably on it. Many factors come into play when a family is in the mix. Place you live is also a factor. Ray to me you are think scrolling and that is it. There is no way you could know what hobbies turned into business because hobbies take in so many different activities and not just scrolling. Of course you have to like doing what you are doing to take it to the next level. Have no other way to put it but every business started as a hobby somewhere down the road. I am done. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

Long video here but here is one that is pretty informational about business / money etc.. 

 

[Woodmaster1]

I love woodworking as a hobby and have been ask several times to start selling  my stuff. I live comfortably on my social security and pension so I don't need the headache. Why ruin a good thing I enjoy going to the shop everyday and spending time making something or just messing around. I have no pressure to crank things out except to get the kitchen cabinets done. My wife thinks four years is too long. I tell her 3 1/2 years planning three months making them. I have 3 doors and 9 drawers to go.

[John B]

1 hour ago, Woodmaster1 said:

I love woodworking as a hobby and have been ask several times to start selling  my stuff. I live comfortably on my social security and pension so I don't need the headache. Why ruin a good thing I enjoy going to the shop everyday and spending time making something or just messing around. I have no pressure to crank things out except to get the kitchen cabinets done. My wife thinks four years is too long. I tell her 3 1/2 years planning three months making them. I have 3 doors and 9 drawers to go.

That's warp speed. 

[kmmcrafts]

I do constantly look for  "New" customers as only about 5% are return customers.. that said.. I think any business is constantly looking for new customers.. You can surely tell who is in it for business and who isn't when you look through websites.. well that statement is wrong.. as some don't know how to do it as a business.. 

My wife has a co-worker who's husband does etsy.. makes rustic looking signs and coat racks etc.. business was booming for them at first and he quit his decent paying day job to do etsy full time.. Now their shop is dead.. and he has had to pick up a part time job.. His issue IMO.. is they never did any advertising.. they never did anything to build a following.. they just list and the buyers came... What many people don't know about etsy is..  Etsy gives "NEW" shop owners a boost in searches to get them off their feet.. so naturally a new seller is going to get some boosted page views for the first year.. but as a seller you should be trying to build a customer base to "your shop" . build back links.. The links in my signature here... every time I post a message or reply.. that is a back link.. The more of those you get throughout the internet the better boosted your website gets... especially when someone clicks on those back links.. Some of the way googles search works to put a site near the top ( first pages of search results ) is popularity.. If people are using links to a page from another site that boost your page in search.. so basically.. every time I post here it's as if I'm building popularity to my web page ... This is why they say to do Blogs..social media, and pins on pintrest etc.. building backlinks and followers etc..   

Anyway.. this co-workers husbands etsy site has fizzled out.. I told my wife to tell them to raise their prices 15% and take that money to advertise.. I've never seen a retail ( that's what etsy seller are if they are selling ) store whether online or brick and mortar not advertise.. yet small online business's such as artist and crafters are cheap and don't want to pay for advertisements.. You have a choice to ether pay for ads.. or sit at your computer all day and build back links and post on social sites all day long trying to get attention or to be seen by new people... Or you can do both paid ads and work the social pages etc. too.. if you have time for that.. Either way you must not just list and sell if you want to survive... I do paid ads in multipal places.. from right on etsys promoted listings to instagram and facebook ads.. Just one example.. I paid in one of these places $420 but sales directly from the ads resulted in $3200 in sales.. so basically I spent $420 so I could make $2780.. A lot of "new" seller will run a daily ad budget of $1 run it for a week and no sales so they say they aren't doing that again.. as it was a rip off.. Some times my ads might not get any result in a sale for a whole month.. but over the coarse of the year there are results.. people aren't patient enough to see results.. many don't know how to do business..

Brick and mortar stores pay big money to print fliers advertise on the radio and tv etc.. what makes a person selling crafts think they can succeed without taking a portion of their sales and pouring it back into placing ads is beyond me.. If you don't do it.. your sales are going to be about as good as a local craft show that doesn't advertise well.. Its like opening a brick and mortar store and never put a sign out saying what you are or sell, LOL people drive by and wonder what that building is.. LOL  

I honestly think people are wrong when saying that one cannot make a living at scroll sawing or crafts.. I think they just don't have the mindset of how selling crafts works in an ever changing world.. Not picking on anyone here and saying you don't know how to sell.. but the way many people buy these days is not the same as they did 10, 20, 30 years ago... where is everyone's attention at these days?? The buyers are out there still.. but where they are at has changed..and still changing..and will always be changing.. faster changing than ever before as technology grows... so one in the business needs to constantly roll with those changes or sales will be dropped and go out of business..   

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by kmmcrafts

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Kevin all good points and advertising is always a key factor. You see it it at craft shows as well. A show needs to be promoted not only by the people putting the show on but also it helps when vendors themselves promote their appearances. I use to make up cards for where my next show was and left them on the table along with my business card. Putting ads on storefront windows was always a good source of advertising along with the newspaper ads. Some methods of advertising is so simple and free and yes some it does cost money. But the old adage you need to spend money to make money rings through. 

But one thing is yes a hobby can become a business if you are willing to put the time and effort into it. You do need the business side of knowledge to go along with the skill set. But this is why people hire others to do that end. I agree with Ray when he said that many times people try to make their hobby into a business and get burned out and that is one of the reasons. Because they have no experience setting up a business and doing the leg work to get it started and it burns before it is established. You did not start out making the money you are now and I bet you questioned yourself about another failed business attempt when you first started. But you stuck with it and being you have some background in business you are making it work. It is not for everyone and many times a family comes into play. You probably have a unique setup where you do not have to feed a family, pay all the bills and a mortgage and provide for college educations and things like that. Because if you did a small business as yours will not get it done. When people say they have a business they more than likely have other incomes or other factors such as kids are on their own and house is paid for and other things. But to take a small hobby such as scrollsawing and knitting and pen turning and make a full time living at it for a long time is probably impossible unless you have other income. Just the way of the world today. 

If you had your business set up 25, 30 years ago and there were the etsy and ebay and power of the net around you would easily tripled what you make now even at the money value back then. Those things were not around. It was the craft shows leading the way. Easier to do than today with all the competition from the web. So yes you have to advertise even more so today to stay ahead of your competition. 

So make a living at selling crafts as you say can be done but far and few in between. I believe my statement above with family being a key. I too know a husband and wife who gave up their employment to give scrolling a chance at a business and this was at the height of the craft movement and they did well but they were constantly working at it day in and day out. They had to move out of Nj and went to Pennsylvania where things were somewhat cheaper to live but kept the business going. No kids so that helped but could not sustain it as the market and economy started going south. The cry for crafts is not there as it once was. I wish you continued success in this endeavor of yours and hope it stays rewarding for you.

[Rolf]

So How is the New Hawk Cutting?

[OCtoolguy]

1 hour ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Kevin all good points and advertising is always a key factor. You see it it at craft shows as well. A show needs to be promoted not only by the people putting the show on but also it helps when vendors themselves promote their appearances. I use to make up cards for where my next show was and left them on the table along with my business card. Putting ads on storefront windows was always a good source of advertising along with the newspaper ads. Some methods of advertising is so simple and free and yes some it does cost money. But the old adage you need to spend money to make money rings through. 

But one thing is yes a hobby can become a business if you are willing to put the time and effort into it. You do need the business side of knowledge to go along with the skill set. But this is why people hire others to do that end. I agree with Ray when he said that many times people try to make their hobby into a business and get burned out and that is one of the reasons. Because they have no experience setting up a business and doing the leg work to get it started and it burns before it is established. You did not start out making the money you are now and I bet you questioned yourself about another failed business attempt when you first started. But you stuck with it and being you have some background in business you are making it work. It is not for everyone and many times a family comes into play. You probably have a unique setup where you do not have to feed a family, pay all the bills and a mortgage and provide for college educations and things like that. Because if you did a small business as yours will not get it done. When people say they have a business they more than likely have other incomes or other factors such as kids are on their own and house is paid for and other things. But to take a small hobby such as scrollsawing and knitting and pen turning and make a full time living at it for a long time is probably impossible unless you have other income. Just the way of the world today. 

If you had your business set up 25, 30 years ago and there were the etsy and ebay and power of the net around you would easily tripled what you make now even at the money value back then. Those things were not around. It was the craft shows leading the way. Easier to do than today with all the competition from the web. So yes you have to advertise even more so today to stay ahead of your competition. 

So make a living at selling crafts as you say can be done but far and few in between. I believe my statement above with family being a key. I too know a husband and wife who gave up their employment to give scrolling a chance at a business and this was at the height of the craft movement and they did well but they were constantly working at it day in and day out. They had to move out of Nj and went to Pennsylvania where things were somewhat cheaper to live but kept the business going. No kids so that helped but could not sustain it as the market and economy started going south. The cry for crafts is not there as it once was. I wish you continued success in this endeavor of yours and hope it stays rewarding for you.

JT, one thing I want to reply to. You mentioned my name so I took notice. When I made that statement, I wasn't referring to folks who tried to make a hobby into a business and failed due to the lack of business. I was referring to the folks who are too successful right off and find that they now don't have the time to do the things they enjoyed in the hobby because they are mired under the work that people want to be done. So, they become overwhelmed and are no longer "enjoying" what they do. I know that what few projects I have completed so far have been fun and enjoyable. But, if I wanted to try something else but couldn't because I had to finish up a dozen of that original project, the fun and enjoyment would go away very fast. I do see what you and Kevin are talking about and that is not what I meant by "failure".

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

44 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

JT, one thing I want to reply to. You mentioned my name so I took notice. When I made that statement, I wasn't referring to folks who tried to make a hobby into a business and failed due to the lack of business. I was referring to the folks who are too successful right off and find that they now don't have the time to do the things they enjoyed in the hobby because they are mired under the work that people want to be done. So, they become overwhelmed and are no longer "enjoying" what they do. I know that what few projects I have completed so far have been fun and enjoyable. But, if I wanted to try something else but couldn't because I had to finish up a dozen of that original project, the fun and enjoyment would go away very fast. I do see what you and Kevin are talking about and that is not what I meant by "failure".

 

I guess what I am trying to say and did it with way too many words is, we sometimes use the word business to mean something else. There are 2 types of business. One that you make a living from and support a family with all the essentials and then there is the side business and that is where the hobby/ business falls in. When you Ray and others say they could not take a hobby and make it into a business is just not true. It is done all the time and this is my point. I have a business. My hobby is a business. It is a side business. When you collect taxes and deal with the government you are now a business. Not everyone can take it to the level where it is self sustaining. People that try may lose interest because it becomes more like a job and it takes the enjoyment out of it. They tried to grow their business but failed for various reasons that I had mentioned before. My point again is those same people wanted to make their hobby/business into a make a living business they would find the way if they were driven. Just human nature. But if they have other means than excuses are easy to make up such as government interference and so on. I can not explain myself any more and will just have to excuse myself from this conversation.  

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, Rolf said:

So How is the New Hawk Cutting?

I've got 5 hours on the clock on the new Hawk.. it's cutting quite nicely.. BUT.. I have some more tuning and tweaking I want to do with it.. and this large order came up for those 10 crosses then slammed with 5 clock orders and several ornaments went out the door too.. so I ended up doing most of my cutting split up between the two saws that are tuned and ready to make dust.. Most of my 5 hours cutting was good on that new saw.. then I tried to make a adjustment to it.. and got it all messed up with some bad vibration in the speed range I wanted to cut.. so put the new Hawk on hold until I get a little more "play time" ..

[OCtoolguy]

4 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

I guess what I am trying to say and did it with way too many words is, we sometimes use the word business to mean something else. There are 2 types of business. One that you make a living from and support a family with all the essentials and then there is the side business and that is where the hobby/ business falls in. When you Ray and others say they could not take a hobby and make it into a business is just not true. It is done all the time and this is my point. I have a business. My hobby is a business. It is a side business. When you collect taxes and deal with the government you are now a business. Not everyone can take it to the level where it is self sustaining. People that try may lose interest because it becomes more like a job and it takes the enjoyment out of it. They tried to grow their business but failed for various reasons that I had mentioned before. My point again is those same people wanted to make their hobby/business into a make a living business they would find the way if they were driven. Just human nature. But if they have other means than excuses are easy to make up such as government interference and so on. I can not explain myself any more and will just have to excuse myself from this conversation.  

I see a "dead horse" laying in the road. And a guy beating it.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

3 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I've got 5 hours on the clock on the new Hawk.. it's cutting quite nicely.. BUT.. I have some more tuning and tweaking I want to do with it.. and this large order came up for those 10 crosses then slammed with 5 clock orders and several ornaments went out the door too.. so I ended up doing most of my cutting split up between the two saws that are tuned and ready to make dust.. Most of my 5 hours cutting was good on that new saw.. then I tried to make a adjustment to it.. and got it all messed up with some bad vibration in the speed range I wanted to cut.. so put the new Hawk on hold until I get a little more "play time" ..

Kevin what kind of tweaking can you do on this saw beside moving the lower clamp to get a more aggressive cutting action?? What did you do that caused more vibration?? Interesting.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 minute ago, octoolguy said:

I see a "dead horse" laying in the road. And a guy beating it.

I guess so.

Edited April 9, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[OCtoolguy]

5 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I've got 5 hours on the clock on the new Hawk.. it's cutting quite nicely.. BUT.. I have some more tuning and tweaking I want to do with it.. and this large order came up for those 10 crosses then slammed with 5 clock orders and several ornaments went out the door too.. so I ended up doing most of my cutting split up between the two saws that are tuned and ready to make dust.. Most of my 5 hours cutting was good on that new saw.. then I tried to make a adjustment to it.. and got it all messed up with some bad vibration in the speed range I wanted to cut.. so put the new Hawk on hold until I get a little more "play time" ..

Kevin, I'd be interested in knowing what "adjustments" and "tuning" you are doing. If you don't mind going over them, maybe some of us would benefit.