Is There A Reason For This Design?

[kmmcrafts]

Hope I can describe in words here.. LOL

The big cross order that I'm working on the design has the bottom of the cross extended.. and then a slot that you cut out in the base for that extension to fit into.. I rarely have ever had these come out to where they'll fit great.. and I'm probably going to just cut off the extended bottom portion and not cut that slot out in the base and glue and counter sink some screws too... but.. then I got to wondering if this would make it easier to ship these.. as they all could be held together with a rubber band ( cross and base matched together this way )  Are this style supposed to be just fit into the slot and sort of press fitted together or glued.. I probably could look at the instructions from the designer, LOL it might explain it.. 

I modify designs to my style all the time and only when I was first starting out with scroll sawing did I make the base and the piece like this.. ever since then I just skip that and make it glued as I stated above..

How do you all do these and do they come out good??

I'll say that my first one I ever did this way the main board warped / cupped slightly .. plus my cutting wasn't very spot on ( still not but better than back in those days ) so I always had to keep sanding and fitting the two together to make them work.. sometimes leaving gaps around the base and the piece because of the poor cutting and warped timber.. 

 

[fredfret]

Maybe the design was made to allow hanging as well as mounted to a base. 

[spirithorse]

I can't answer what the intended designer's reason for the design was but, I think it's much easier than
counter-sinking holes and screwing things together.
I also agree with fredfret's answer that you have a choice of base or hanging the project.

God Bless! Spirithorse

[WayneMahler]

Kevin

If I understand your question you are trying to work with a mortise and tenon joint. I cut these all the time.I do bases that I glue up and used in furniture I built quite a bit. The best way to get a "good" fit is to sneak up on it. The tenon is cut a little over sized and the the mortise is cut a little under-sized. The you sneak up on the proper fit. When starting out with these they can be a bit of a challenge but that goes away with practice and patience. The same applies to scrolling. Just remember that what you on all side are accumulative and can end up being too much removed for a good fit. I normally divided the space to be removed by 1/2 then cut just shy of that. Thus the sneaking up on the cut. Hope this helps. Keep practicing and it will get a lot easier in time.

[Scrappile]

I think the best reason for the "tabs" in a "hole" method is shipping and storage.  For example, I have made 2 different schwibbogens.  One glued together one held together with tabs.  The tabbed one I can take apart and store easily in a thin box.  The glued on, I haven't figured out yet how the heck I will store it!

[kmmcrafts]

So.. I cut a couple of the bases out tonight. got a decent fit on one and the other is slightly loose.. 

Seems kind of weird type of joinery honestly.. since wood breaths.. I could get a nice fit now but after I put a finish on it and it soaks up some oil.. it may not fit.. I like the idea of doing these like this for shipping reasons.. I kinda wondered about doing similar to doing inlay.. or bevel cutting the base so it would go in and wedge somewhat.. then I wouldn't get a loose fit.. but then it probably wont sit down into the base good enough.. I don't mind doing some sanding a little at a time to get a nice fit.. just worried by the time I finish these it's all going to fit differently.. I don't want the customer to get these and have them all loose or so tight they don't go together very well..  

[jollyred]

These are called "tab and slot" joints, and are intended to align the parts for assembly.  They also help reinforce the rather thin joints on shelves, boxes, bowls and baskets.  Plus you can take them apart for shipping and storage.  They have been around for longer than I have and that is a long time.  Like Wayne said, to make them fit you sneak up on the fit.  Small files are a great help.  They were especially useful before modern adhesives came along with better strength than the earlier glues.

[Scrappile]

would it be easier to              ,,   no never mind, I talked myself out of it wasn't,, a good idea;

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

It is just the designers way of making the pattern. I never use the tab and slot system. I always screw the piece to the base. I would do the same with that cross. Now there are times I will increase the bottom of the piece so that there is enough material to screw into. To sit there and try to fit a tab into a slot and then if the slot is slightly large you see the edge of the slot is not a good look. Why would you want to take it apart??  if you ship it in 2 pieces and the wood swells and does not fit you have a problem from the customer. 

One other thing. I never glue my piece to the base for two reasons. One is movement because of different grain direction and if I need to replace the piece because of breakage I can still reuse the base. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

7 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

It is just the designers way of making the pattern. I never use the tab and slot system. I always screw the piece to the base. I would do the same with that cross. Now there are times I will increase the bottom of the piece so that there is enough material to screw into. To sit there and try to fit a tab into a slot and then if the slot is slightly large you see the edge of the slot is not a good look. Why would you want to take it apart??  if you ship it in 2 pieces and the wood swells and does not fit you have a problem from the customer. 

One other thing. I never glue my piece to the base for two reasons. One is movement because of different grain direction and if I need to replace the piece because of breakage I can still reuse the base. 

I tossed and turned on this subject of whether to cut the slot or not.. I got up this morning thinking that I'm not fooling with that slot.. I like the idea of it being a wall hanging and or a shelf sitter.. BUT.. It's advertised as a shelf sitter.. so that's what I'm making it as.. 

You say you don't glue to the base.. and only use screws.. I used to do just screws as well.. that said.. I've had many more problems with using screws than just gluing them.. I've had a couple personal items as well as a couple customers come back with broken items.. What I found ( your case maybe different ) was that with screws you're only holding the piece at two small points where the screws are.. every piece that was damaged was broke off at the screw points.. Drilling a hole in the middle of a 1/2 - 3/4" wood to mount the base to only leaves a small amount of timber on each side of those screw.. In my personal experience if the piece accidentally gets bumped and falls over.. the piece almost always breaks. Especially with the Red Oak with its weak open grain structure.. I had only a few issues out of several hundred.. I asked about this issue on another woodworking site.. It was suggested to stop using screws and just use glue.. or they did say using both is great too because the screws would sort of work as clamping pressure to the two joining pieces.. Since doing the glue ( no screws ) I have yet had any issues with the two different pieces of wood.. Had issues where the piece broke.. but not at the glue joint..

I've been gluing since about 2008-9.. I first learned scrolling in 2006 and wasn't doing much work like I do now.. in that short time I had maybe 5 pieces that broke where the screws were.. from 2008-9 to now.. not one issue with glue only.. Sometime in between the 2006- 08-9 timeline I started using dowel pins and glue.. but had bonding issues with the rods getting enough glue and coming apart..

Maybe I'm using the screw method wrong.. you have way more experience with it than I do.. Not saying you're wrong and I'm right.. just stating my experience..   

[John B]

I often use the Mortice and tenon method of fixing an upright project to a base.
Once the upright has been cut I place the tenon on the base, scribe around it and cut inside the line with the scrollsaw. Sometimes a little tweaking is necessary for a perfect fit.
Alternatively, you could drill screw the pieces together, disassemble them and place the couple of screws in small plastic bag for the recipient to re-assemble.
Hell IKEA does it all the time

 

[meflick]

When my daughter moved to the Atlanta, GA area for school - i finally got my first couple of trips to Ikea in.  (Closest one to me.)  We bought her some of that self assembly stuff.  Good thing she, my son and hubby is good with pictures and putting things together like that!   I'd still be struggling with it and its been over 9 months now.   They are all much more mechanically inclined then I am I'm afraid. My son used to love putting lego projects together when he was little, the bigger the better. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by meflick

[Rolf]

Many of the recent projects I have done for the magazine use mortise and tenon for assembly. Not my favorite method but necessary for certain projects,  like the Japanese inspired shelf in the SSWWC summer issue. What I do is cut the tenons then mark around it where I am putting the mortise. an easy cut with the scroll saw just up to the inside of the lines. If need be I clean up the mortise with a very sharp chisel until I get a slip fit. If I don't get a perfect fit or small gaps in the back I just rub in a bit of sawdust and spray on my finish. 

It is much stronger than screws and less risk of splitting your project.

[jerry1939]

12 hours ago, Scrappile said:

would it be easier to              ,,   no never mind, I talked myself out of it wasn't,, a good idea;

Heck, I have a lot of those.

jerry

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Kevin I have always used screws on my projects and never had a return or breakage that I know of. Any droppage usually means broken pieces other than where they are attached. I have seen this because I have done it and had accidents at a show. Once you start sawing fret holes in a piece you weaken that wood. The idea when using screws is to have enough material to screw into and to use the right screws. Also drill for pilot holes. That piece needs to sit flat on the base. Just can not see how it would break. As I said fret work is not designed to be dropped. Apply pressure when gluing is not easy and you do need to apply some pressure to take out air pockets. You can look at all my projects I have shown and if it has an upright piece it has been screwed in some fashion. You make many small clocks like I do hat have only 2 small areas to glue so what is the difference between glue and screws. Same holding power. Your examples http://www.scrollsawvillage.com/forums/topic/32330-several-new-clocks-made/

 

I had shown all my latest projects back in Dec that I made and everyone has screws in them and they are just as strong if not stronger than any glue. Just look at all thread that have the words projects in them and my name. http://www.scrollsawvillage.com/forums/forum/28-bragging-rights/?page=19 I always finish my projects before I assemble them becuae it is so much easier when flat. If I did that then there is no way to get a good glue bond because the oil would prohibit that. But screwing them no problem with bonding at all and as I said I would stand behind the use of screws in a project if done right any day of the week. Mortise and tenon work is used in woodworking all the time but slots and tabs to me are a waste of time and never used  them. 

One other thing I have noticed as difference from me and you is that I make my bases wider than you on my projects so tipping over is virtually impossible. Plus visual reference in my eye tells me how wide to make them. I have no standard meassurements and most plans are used as suggestions and not as solid need to follow ideas.   

Edited April 4, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[BadBob]

Just a few things that came to mind while reading through these posts.

Gluing end grain to long grain is bad. Wood expands and contracts with the humidity across the grain and very little with the grain. If I build it in Florida and ship it to Arizona the joint is going to fail.

Dowels are not always round. In fact, they usually are not. A 1/2-inch dowel may be larger or smaller then 1/2-inch. You should always measure the dowel and drill the appropriate size hole. A 1/2 inch dowel will be a very tight fit for a 1/2 inch hole. It may not fit at all one the glue is applied. The glue makes it swell.

Screws in end grain is a weak joint and may spit the wood if it is used without the proper size pilot hole. Expansion and contraction of the wood may cause the screw to loosen after a few seasons.

A properly made mortise and tenon joint is probably the strongest wood joint you can make. It has been in use for centuries and was designed to use in cross-grain situations. There are plenty of videos that show test on the strength of wood joints.

If I were going to make something that I wanted to be able to take apart and reassemble I would use a connector bolt. This is what Ikea uses for butt joints in their knock down furniture.