Scrolling With Magnification

[OCtoolguy]

10 hours ago, Scrappile said:

Okay I have the solution, only, you young whipper-snappers will not remember them.  You need one of those magnifying thingies they use to set in front of the old small screen TV sets.  Mount it in front of your saw, reach around it to scroll! 

Both my magnifiers have to be close to the work.  They are a 2.5X and a 1.5X and there is not much difference in focal length that I can tell.  I do know that the one with the LED is too bright now that I have had cataract surgery.  I may have to experiment with some different bulbs for it.

a

Close one eye. That will cut the brightness in half.

 

[teachnlearn]

2 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

Close one eye. That will cut the brightness in half.

 

I'm not sure of what creates the led light. If its a plugin lamp a led dimmer plugin could be built. IF ITS a box/ assembly I would have to tear it apart. RJF

[lawson56]

On 4/21/2019 at 6:00 PM, octoolguy said:

When you get it, try to clamp it to something other than your saw. Eliminate all the vibration.

 

I have,I tried a seprate piece of wood, screwed at several places on my table,as it turned out the clamp wasn't strong enough to hold on very well.

[kmmcrafts]

I mount my light on a separate bench that doesn't touch the saw or stand at all... except my Hawks, LOL they have that hole in the accessory arm so I use it.. LOL but then.. that shaking doesn't seem to bother me or the bulbs so.. no need to make a mount separate from the saw.

[Rolf]

I have mine mounted on the top of my Hawk absolutely no vibration.

Teachlearn, If you worked in an electronics environment you may appreciate this

I managed and worked in a semiconductor processing lab for 35 years along with a bunch of other hats. I did  a lot of wire boding Manual and automated. Many hours looking through microscopes and every other form of magnification. Each of the squares is 63 mm x 63 mm (2.48in) The assembly took 9 years from concept to completion~1.5 miles of bonding wire  .001 inch in diameter the longest being less than 1/4 inch. So magnification was my world. 

For the curious this was a detector was used in a High energy physics experiment called STAR

It was nice having high power microscopes, especially Monday mornings when I removed my weekend splinters. 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Mine too is mounted on my Hawks and there is no vibration at all. 

[OCtoolguy]

2 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Mine too is mounted on my Hawks and there is no vibration at all. 

I will have to give it a try on mine. I haven't purchased a light for my Hawk yet.

 

[teachnlearn]

5 hours ago, Rolf said:

I have mine mounted on the top of my Hawk absolutely no vibration.

Teachlearn, If you worked in an electronics environment you may appreciate this

I managed and worked in a semiconductor processing lab for 35 years along with a bunch of other hats. I did  a lot of wire boding Manual and automated. Many hours looking through microscopes and every other form of magnification. Each of the squares is 63 mm x 63 mm (2.48in) The assembly took 9 years from concept to completion~1.5 miles of bonding wire  .001 inch in diameter the longest being less than 1/4 inch. So magnification was my world. 

For the curious this was a detector was used in a High energy physics experiment called STAR

It was nice having high power microscopes, especially Monday mornings when I removed my weekend splinters. 

Love it! Maybe we can find a cheap electron microscope to use for scroll sawing. With a 9 year project, your cut out to do the really detailed complex patterns. RJF

[Rockytime]

My only regret about the magnifiers is not having Rolf's formula. That caused me to google diopter and find just what I needed to know. If taking diopter, magnification X and focal length into consideration I would have known exactly what to purchase. Cheaper than experimenting.

 

 

 

 

[lawson56]

On 4/21/2019 at 5:53 PM, Rockytime said:

I use these. I love them and they work well. However I still need to be to close to the table. I'm hoping to be able to sit back and scroll. These are the ones I use. In fact I have four pair. I love them for a lot of things.

Those are nice.I wish mine were like that.Cool.

[Rob]

I have a 3 dioptre LED magnifier which works well for me.   @Rockytime here is an online dioptre to focal length converter you might find useful:

http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/diopterToFocalLengthConverter.html

Rob

[Rockytime]

3 hours ago, Rob said:

I have a 3 dioptre LED magnifier which works well for me.   @Rockytime here is an online dioptre to focal length converter you might find useful:

http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/diopterToFocalLengthConverter.html

Rob

Lots of info out there. I should have done due diligence before jumping into something I was not familiar about.

[teachnlearn]

5 hours ago, Rob said:

I have a 3 dioptre LED magnifier which works well for me.   @Rockytime here is an online dioptre to focal length converter you might find useful:

http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/diopterToFocalLengthConverter.html

Rob

Marked the site. The whole problem with any general post of who uses what magnifier is everybody's own eyesight. I finally had to use a software magnifier on my computer screen this year. I use a 3x for reading and a 7x to examine the cracks and solder joints on circuit boards. Scroll sawing would be different magnifiers for a simple pattern or complex pattern with fine lines. A 20-year-old wouldn't use anything and everyone will be higher, lower or maybe the same as mine.  Astigmatism and other eye conditions are all going to be variables. There are racks of glasses at Walmart and others and simple trials will help to get a 'power' which may have to be converted. One thing, by cheap, cheap test glasses, eyepieces, then upgrade to the nice spring magnifying light/ headpiece of your choice rather than chase expensive mags that have to be shipped back and battle refunds. RJF

[teachnlearn]

On 4/22/2019 at 9:30 AM, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Still do not know what mine is. Not written on it anywhere. I do use reading glasses all the time when in the shop so I use them in conjunction with the magnifier and sit very comfortable scrolling away. Being retired and under no deadlines I scroll when I want. If I get tired I am done for the day. Still in pen mode so no scrolling till about June and will start the saws up again. Have to love retired life.

Just was at the eye doctor last week. Was having some pain in right eye. He put me through all the tests and boy there is surely alot of them had more eye drops put in my eye than I ever used. Have 25/20 vision. No cataracts and no glaucoma. Do need reading glasses but says I can use drugstore version for now. Attributes pain to allergies. I am trying to zero in on what it could be Have not been in the shop for 3 weeks now so know it is not anything from there. Maybe food or weather related. Some days nothing and some days bad. 

Consider the lighting in the shop and your home, computer. Frequency of light and type of light has a lot to do with eyestrain. My wife suffers from light triggered migraines. We live in a place with blackout curtains. For years I could see the flicker of fluorescent light. Haven't used one in years and used the old bulbs with dimmers. The light intensity can be a problem too.  I did a lot of study at one time for my wife, cause she suffered from migraines teaching school. Consulting a 'Lighting Engineer' he gave me a brand of fluorescent bulbs to replace everyone in the room at our cost. At least she didn't have migraines in the classroom.  Science has studied the effects of blue light on computer screens. I looked at this years and years ago and science has advanced. At least I found there is such a thing as 'lighting engineers' that do it for a living. Type of lights, freq. intensity 'LUEMS',  are all figured on this, some optical and eye MDS may know this field also. It's vast, but I believe it may be one solution that has an answer. My wife and I are semi-retired living in a dark room so I stopped the research for now. RJF

[teachnlearn]

On 4/23/2019 at 3:34 AM, lawson56 said:

I have,I tried a seprate piece of wood, screwed at several places on my table,as it turned out the clamp wasn't strong enough to hold on very well.

Our kitchen counter doesn't have much of a lip. I use C clamps with a little padding to clamp a custom wooden box to the counter. The lower part clamps the counter, the top 'shelf' is used to attach kichen accessories, meat cutter, pasta roller..... the metal c clamps are rock solid and then I can clamp other things that use less quality clamps. Simple screw up, glue up box with enough room for the c clamps to get into the lower shelf and the gadgets clamp to the top. The box sits ON the counter. The same thing can be used around the shop. RJF

[scrollntole]

Hi ... several months ago I asked Steve Good about this and he suggested a lamp / magnifier from Harbor Freight. I bought it and have been satisfied with it...

Vin

[OCtoolguy]

2 hours ago, scrollntole said:

Hi ... several months ago I asked Steve Good about this and he suggested a lamp / magnifier from Harbor Freight. I bought it and have been satisfied with it...

Vin

That's what I use. I did upgrade the bulb though to an LED. 

[Sycamore67]

I tried a HF magnifier light but my eyes did not like it.  I found that it had more distortion and smaller area in focus than my Ottlite.

[kmmcrafts]

I have three magnifier lights.. two are the same but one came with the used Hawk I bought.. I have no idea what brand or power the one is that came with my old Hawk.. But i think it's seems about the same power as the others I have.. This is the lights I bought.. 

https://www.menards.com/main/lighting-ceiling-fans/indoor-lighting/lamps/desk-lamps/patriot-lighting-reg-apollo-45-h-black-1-light-magnifier-desk-lamp/tb1306b/p-1444438446926-c-1531402259058.htm?tid=-4421764401651314458&ipos=1

 

Anyway.. the lens on the two I bought don't seem nearly as high quality.. I can see much better with the one that came with the Hawk.. though as I said.. I'm pretty sure they are the same power.. just the quality of lens is better on one over the others.. 

I see some really high priced magnifiers.. and have to wonder how good they are.. I wouldn't say a Harbor Freight unit is probably any different than the one I have.. but some of those higher priced units might be a much better quality lens.. I'd like to have some better lenses like the older one like I have with the unknown brand that came with the Hawk.. I'd be quite mad if I paid good money for one and it was no different than the cheapos I have.. The new ones all seem to be LED.. and that part isn't a big deal for me as I like a light that I can change a bulb in... many of the newer ones you just throw away and buy a new one.. while LED's are supposed to last a long time.. I've had LED's burn out way faster than they claim too.. so I'm not looking for a expensive magnifier that needs replaced every 2,3-6 years... If I were to pay nearly $200 for a LED magnifier light.. It better have either a replacement bulb or a 10 year warranty, LOL

Anyone have those expensive high end lights?  I'd like to hear some feedback.. Wish there was a place to look at them in person.. because.. I'd be sold on a higher end light provided it was built to a high end standard.. Just because it's expensive doesn't always mean it's a quality piece.. 

[meflick]

12 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

. . . Anyone have those expensive high end lights?  I'd like to hear some feedback. . . . . I'd be sold on a higher end light provided it was built to a high end standard.. Just because it's expensive doesn't always mean it's a quality piece.. 

I have two of what many would consider to be "expensive" high end magnifying lights.  I bought them from Judy Gale Roberts after having used them in her classroom studio.  You can find them on her site here: https://intarsia.com/collections/hardware/products/new-led-daylight-slimline-magnifying-lamp  It comes with 2 different diopter lenses that are 5" wide.  It has little to no distortion even at the edges of the lenses.

I have been using mine for about 3 years now.  I couldn't scroll without it. I need the light and the magnification.  As I noted, it comes with two different lenses (1.75X and 2.25X) that you can swap in or out.  I would say they are indeed high quality with little distortion.  After buying the first one at Judy's, I decided I needed a second one for the second saw I had.  Instead of buying another one from Judy and since this was a saw that was not my "main" saw, I thought I would save a little money and buy a cheaper one.  I think I tried two.  Neither of them were nearly the quality of the one bought from Judy's shop.  The lenses were not the same quality and had a lot more distortion with them especially around the edges, and there were "shadows" that I don't get with the one I bought at Judy's.  As a result, I got rid of those and got a 2nd one from Judy and haven't looked back.  Well worth the expense in my opinion, especially if you use your saws as much as you do Kevin. MFRP is around $260.  Judy's price is $152.10 and notes its $20 shipping (but also notes that shipping can vary - she usually only charges actual shipping cost.)  This is in part due to how heavy it is (the lenses are very heavy) and the box is not small. It has a spring arm that clamps on.  Mine are both clamped on my saws and I don't get any vibration that moves it.

When I bought the second one, I decided to look around and see if I could find it cheaper then I could at Judy's site. I looked at Amazon and the Manufacturer's site and both were more then at Judy's site.  I just checked both again.  On Amazon, there are 3 listings.  2 are much higher and then there is one listing slightly cheaper then Judy's and list it with free shipping ($149.95 and free shipping so perhaps a savings of about $2 on the light and the shipping cost.)  I know if anything was wrong - Judy would attempt to make it right though. The Amazon listings I found are here: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Daylight+Slimline+LED+Magnifying+Lamp&rh=p_89%3ADaylight&dc&qid=1556194395&rnid=2528832011&ref=sr_nr_p_89_1

It is $255 on the Manufacturer's site and appears to show free shipping from there: https://daylightcompany.com/slimline-led-magnifying-lamp-daylight-25030.html.html

I will also note that I did not have to pay shipping for the ones I bought from Judy because I live about 40 minutes away from her shop.  The first one I bought while I was in an Intarsia class there and brought it home.  The second one, I also bought when I went back for a second class.  Because I live local, I didn't have to worry about shipping it home or getting it home if I had flown in for a class.  I do know that if they every went out, I would quickly be seeking the same quality light as quickly as possible.

I know several others who have taken her classes have also purchased the light after using them in her classes.  I know that @NC Scroller Scott also bought one when I bought mine as we were in the same class.

 

[Sycamore67]

I have a Ottlite which came with two lens.

I bought it at JoAnns Fabrics and they always have coupons for up to 40% off.

For my eyes, it works very well with a wide field of view.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

If you have an arts store nearby they probably have them. They use them on drafting tables and that is where you will find the better ones. Or use that word for a search. 

[NC Scroller]

I strongly recommend you try before you buy.  I originally bought one that was well rated through AMAZON.  Could not use it.  Things were blurry and gave me an instant headache.  Even had my wife and neighbor tried it with the same results.  Returned it which is no simple process where I live.  I used the one that Judy Gale Roberts sells after taking a class.  It works great. Worth every penny.

[teachnlearn]

Lens for microscopes, telescopes, and magnifiers are all about the quality and the price will go up fast. For the high powered massive telescopes. The lens and mirrors can be ground and polished for years which carries a heavy price. Some amateurs that use a microscope and especially telescopes go into an added 'hobby of designing and making their own lens and mirrors to escape the high lens cost. The manufactures reputation is going the be a big factor. My use and interest in magnification were from my electronic engineering days, and a little nowadays with old eyes. I was involved in automation or the more common word of robotics.  Cameras that inspected food, or meds, or parts were very high quality and had a high price from industrial supplies. I relied on engineers in our company and their engineers to get the right camera, cable camera, lens, autofocus, auto zoom the right lighting. Once these specs were worked out, we designed from there.  Again there is a whole field of design around the lens of type, magnification, resolution, compound, simple, use of mirrors. I posted before, double check and find the magnification or range of magnification for yourself, then search our reputable manufacturers and distributors to buy from. There are always the fake, counterfeit manufacturers and suppliers to sell a knockoff. How high the quality and how high the lens is always going to be on how well a person sees. Even with script eyeglasses you now have a compound magnifier that will have its own properties of how far the first lens is from the scrollsaw and you are from the magnifier. Then fire sawdust is going to vary the image. Something that was offered in industrial camera designs of coating and varied continuous cleaning to keep the image crisp for the project. RJF

Edited April 25, 2019 by teachnlearn

[teachnlearn]

3 hours ago, NC Scroller said:

I strongly recommend you try before you buy.  I originally bought one that was well rated through AMAZON.  Could not use it.  Things were blurry and gave me an instant headache.  Even had my wife and neighbor tried it with the same results.  Returned it which is no simple process where I live.  I used the one that Judy Gale Roberts sells after taking a class.  It works great. Worth every penny.

Type of lights, ie old blub, CFL, led, fluorescent,  softness or freq of light, direction and the surfaces it bounces off of can give people headaches. I get headaches from strong fluorescent and either stay out of the room using them or turn them off and use a different source light. In our near future, we hope to move into a house and I've played with shop designs. The shop lights have fluorescent and bright led, which I would test one before buying a bunch to light a whole shop. The design I see have groups of lights overhead, and very bright. Kind of going outside in the bright sun all day and working. Some grab sunglasses. Grab a few table lights around the home that you use and don't get headaches and light the scrollsaw without the mag light. Get a pack of assorted colored construction 'a lot sold in kids crafts', paper and tape some on the scroll table. See if a color knocks out a glare. Just offering solutions that might work, no one will work for any persons work style or eyesight. RJF