Rambling

[JimErn]

In the gear head communities, and especially the biker community, there is a dreaded, sometimes contentious, often laughable  subject, "What oil is best?" and I think this one will probably be close to that kind of thing here.

I only have two scroll saws, I have tried this on both, and I can not see a difference at all when I stick the pattern to the wood, or first blue tape it and stick the pattern, or package tape it and stick the pattern.

Urban legend says, the tape lubricates the blade.  Really? melted adhesive becomes a lubricant?  And if that were the case, why doesn't the melted adhesive from just sticking the pattern to the wood also become a lubricant?

And if not the melted adhesive, melted plastic (clear tape) or melted paper/cloth (blue tape) does become a lubricant?

Then urban legend says the clear tape or blue tape is easier to remove.  Not in my experience at all.  Tape is at the most 4" wide which means it has to over lap, those over lap pieces of tape at the minimum have to be peeled off individually.  And since tape tears so easily, I have yet to be able to pull off one 4" wide strip intact, which means more work taking those pieces off.

Then urban legend says, tape prevents burning the wood when cutting.  Even when I was starting this hobby and didn't quite understand when to change the dull blade, I never scorched the wood (no tape by the way).

I stick the pattern to the wood with spray adhesive, cut it, brush on some mineral spirits, wait a minute or so, and the whole pattern lifts off. Then I wipe down the piece with a paper towel wet with mineral spirits and let dry.  And if  could find a way to do it with fewer steps I would.

So I guess my point to this diatribe is, does anyone know of an actual quantitative study showing that the urban legends concerning tape are true?

[kmmcrafts]

I've often wondered the same.. I sometimes cut without any paper attached to the wood at all because sometimes I just draw it on the wood by hand... I've never really noticed anything different.. short of the lines on a white paper are much easier to see than pencil on wood... especially when I'm usually doing this by pencil on my walnut backers I cut.. 

This all said.. I've never really burned the wood since I stopped using my DeWalt which run faster SPM than the EX or the Hawks.. well the new Hawk runs just as fast but..  Another thing.. I find I don't burn the wood when using Pegas blades.. over my old go to blade FD Ultra Reverse... I find the Pegas do turns easier than the FD-UR blades... in part because the FD-UR has that reverse tooth all the way up the blade.. and I think it tends to try to grab the wood out of your hands so it might subconsciously make me cut putting pressure on the side of the blade more so? I'm not sure.. either way.. I'm just glad I found the Pegas blades work better for my type of sawing style.. 

About the easiest burning wood is Cherry ( I believe ).. from what I experience and what I've read on these forums etc too... Cherry is actually what I use most.. short of BB plywood anyway.. 

[Bill WIlson]

Nothing quantitative (where are the MythBusters when you need them?) but I do have a fairly convincing (at least to me) subjective anecdote, from my own personal experience.  I think I may have posted this once or twice before, when the topic came up, so bear with me, if you've heard this before.

Last year I was using scrap pieces, that seem to spontaneously accumulate in my shop, to cut puzzles for Toys for Tots.  I was using mostly 3/4" thick stuff and everything was progressing just fine.  I forget what blade I was using, but when I started in on this one piece of cherry, it started to burn immediately.  I put in a fresh blade and it burned as well.  I tried a few different types and a couple different brands and everything burned.  I had already cut other puzzles out of other pieces of cherry (along with red oak, sycamore, maple, walnut, white oak) with absolutely no problems.  All the burning was confined to this specific piece of wood.

Now I used to faithfully wrap all my stuff in tape, believing the advice I had received from other veteran scrollers in my club, as well as all the posters on the various scrolling forums and even in the scrolling mags.  The recommendation was so pervasive, I didn't question it.  That is until I got tired of all the wrapping and trying to pick the tiny bits off of my fretwork, so I found myself using it less and less, to the point where I wasn't using it at all.  I had become a packing tape skeptic.

Then came that one piece of cherry that defied all attempts to cut with any scroll saw blade I had.  I've been scrolling for 20+ years and I've never run into a problem like this before.  As a last resort and a desperate attempt to salvage this project and this piece of cherry, I wrapped the rest of it with packing tape.  I went back to the first blade I was using and it cut that cherry, like butter, with no more burning.  I was gobsmacked and now, no longer a skeptic.  I can't explain why this particular piece of cherry was so obstinate.  Perhaps it was case hardened or something.  But it doesn't really matter.  The fact remains that I couldn't cut it without burning, no matter what I tried, until I applied tape.  The tape made an incredible difference, so, I'm convinced, there is something to it.

[crupiea]

I do not use tape so count me out, Just a thin coat pf spray glue, let it sit for at least 20 minutes and attach the sheet to the wood. Thats it. 

[loftyhermes]

It's the release agent on the back of the packing tape that acts as the lubricant to prevent burning. Think about it, If they didn't put anything on the back of the tape then you wouldn't be able to unroll it.

[Brianr24]

Since I discovered Contact paper not really looking after I started scrolling. I use nothing else. 

[JimErn]

1 hour ago, Bill WIlson said:

Nothing quantitative (where are the MythBusters when you need them?) but I do have a fairly convincing (at least to me) subjective anecdote, from my own personal experience.  I think I may have posted this once or twice before, when the topic came up, so bear with me, if you've heard this before.

Last year I was using scrap pieces, that seem to spontaneously accumulate in my shop, to cut puzzles for Toys for Tots.  I was using mostly 3/4" thick stuff and everything was progressing just fine.  I forget what blade I was using, but when I started in on this one piece of cherry, it started to burn immediately.  I put in a fresh blade and it burned as well.  I tried a few different types and a couple different brands and everything burned.  I had already cut other puzzles out of other pieces of cherry (along with red oak, sycamore, maple, walnut, white oak) with absolutely no problems.  All the burning was confined to this specific piece of wood.

Now I used to faithfully wrap all my stuff in tape, believing the advice I had received from other veteran scrollers in my club, as well as all the posters on the various scrolling forums and even in the scrolling mags.  The recommendation was so pervasive, I didn't question it.  That is until I got tired of all the wrapping and trying to pick the tiny bits off of my fretwork, so I found myself using it less and less, to the point where I wasn't using it at all.  I had become a packing tape skeptic.

Then came that one piece of cherry that defied all attempts to cut with any scroll saw blade I had.  I've been scrolling for 20+ years and I've never run into a problem like this before.  As a last resort and a desperate attempt to salvage this project and this piece of cherry, I wrapped the rest of it with packing tape.  I went back to the first blade I was using and it cut that cherry, like butter, with no more burning.  I was gobsmacked and now, no longer a skeptic.  I can't explain why this particular piece of cherry was so obstinate.  Perhaps it was case hardened or something.  But it doesn't really matter.  The fact remains that I couldn't cut it without burning, no matter what I tried, until I applied tape.  The tape made an incredible difference, so, I'm convinced, there is something to it.

Now that is an interesting piece of anecdotal evidence.

And yet it made no difference to the other pieces of cherry - very odd, you would think the wood would be consistent.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

The answer above is the correct one and only correct one. It is the release agent that is used on the top side of the tape that is the lubricant and not the glue or adhesive. So that myth is true and false and yes it does make a difference. You may not see it because of your method of cutting along with the woods or materials you cut. The use of proper blade helps there also along with speed of cutting. Woods can burn and there are some that are more prone than others so again that myth is both true and false. Even though you use the same species of wood, within that species you may get a harder grained piece thus making the cut tougher, the turns harder and more burning. So all those list of myths as you call them are both true and false depending who and how you cut. 

[TripleJScroller]

I used to use the blue painter's tape until one day I ran out and decided just to spray glue the pattern directly to the wood.  At this time I realized it was much easier to remove with a bit of mineral spirits and I no longer had a problem with the pattern lifting while I was trying to cut.  Recently I saw everyone talking about the contact paper and decided to try it, and I thought it worked a bit better than the blue tape, but in the end I just like the simplicity of gluing directly to the wood. 

[Bill WIlson]

38 minutes ago, JimErn said:

Now that is an interesting piece of anecdotal evidence.

And yet it made no difference to the other pieces of cherry - very odd, you would think the wood would be consistent.

Yea, I can't explain why one cherry board cut fine without tape and the other one burnt like it was on fire.   Some Cherry characteristics vary from tree to tree.  I know the color and the rate that it changes does.  I don't know if that applies to density or not.  The Janka scale, while perhaps not a precise representation of an entire species, would suggest that most hardwoods reach a certain hardness and don't vary dramatically.  I theorized that perhaps the trouble making piece may have been case hardened, but I have no proof of that.  I think this particular cut off was from a mantle surround project I built 10 years ago.  I don't recall encountering any specific difficulties with that wood that would indicate case hardening, but I have no other ideas.

[JimErn]

@Bill WIlson

I just noticed the link for your club

blazing blades

cherry burning

kismet?

ROFLMAO

[kmmcrafts]

4 hours ago, Bill WIlson said:

Yea, I can't explain why one cherry board cut fine without tape and the other one burnt like it was on fire.   Some Cherry characteristics vary from tree to tree.  I know the color and the rate that it changes does.  I don't know if that applies to density or not.  The Janka scale, while perhaps not a precise representation of an entire species, would suggest that most hardwoods reach a certain hardness and don't vary dramatically.  I theorized that perhaps the trouble making piece may have been case hardened, but I have no proof of that.  I think this particular cut off was from a mantle surround project I built 10 years ago.  I don't recall encountering any specific difficulties with that wood that would indicate case hardening, but I have no other ideas.

You know... now that you mention it.. I had a piece of cherry the same way back a few years.. kinda forgot all about it.. and for me I had cut most of the project but once i started cutting the outline of the piece out once the fretwork was cut near the bottom of the project I couldn't cut it without burning.. even slowed the speed way down etc.. The wood was softer and sort of wet.. almost as if it was somewhat rotted.. for a lack of better words.. 

 

 

[Bill WIlson]

52 minutes ago, JimErn said:

@Bill WIlson

I just noticed the link for your club

blazing blades

cherry burning

kismet?

ROFLMAO

[stoney]

Just my two cents worth.   Along with the lubricating qualities of using tape which reduces friction, which in turn reduces heat, which in my opinion lengthens the life of blades, it also allows for immediate finishing of the project.   As far as removing little bits of tape a heat gun works wonders.   I don't use tape exclusively but it does have its benefits on some projects, especially on very dense hardwoods.  

[tgiro]

I'm going to come from a whole different angle. While attending Judy Gale Roberts' classes, she introduced me to the Xyron machine -- https://www.amazon.com/Xyron-608931028515-624632-Creative-Original/dp/B00X3EZ5VO/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=xyron&qid=1559086197&s=gateway&sr=8-3

These things are normally used by scrapbookers. You feed your pattern through it and it will put  adhesive on the back of the paper. You can get permanent adhesive, which requires mineral spirits to get off, or you can get re-positional adhesive which peels off easily. I found that my blade cuts much smoother through wood with Xyron prepared paper than with other adhesives.

I've been using it since I too Judy's class and have never looked back.

[Rockytime]

Keep on ranting. Interesting things always come about. I like the ruler ap too.

[Rockytime]

1 hour ago, tgiro said:

I'm going to come from a whole different angle. While attending Judy Gale Roberts' classes, she introduced me to the Xyron machine -- https://www.amazon.com/Xyron-608931028515-624632-Creative-Original/dp/B00X3EZ5VO/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=xyron&qid=1559086197&s=gateway&sr=8-3

These things are normally used by scrapbookers. You feed your pattern through it and it will put  adhesive on the back of the paper. You can get permanent adhesive, which requires mineral spirits to get off, or you can get re-positional adhesive which peels off easily. I found that my blade cuts much smoother through wood with Xyron prepared paper than with other adhesives.

I've been using it since I too Judy's class and have never looked back.

That device is worth looking into. Years ago when my art department did mechanical paste ups I had waxing machines.

[jerrye]

17 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

The answer above is the correct one and only correct one. It is the release agent that is used on the top side of the tape that is the lubricant and not the glue or adhesive.

Having once sold packaging materials for a living, I would agree with John's assessment. In order to maximize the amount of release agent, you'd need to source tape with acrylic adhesive as opposed to hot melt, as acrylic is the most aggressive initial tack adhesive used on packaging tape today. A visual clue as to the type of adhesive is the clarity of the tape. Hot melt normally has an amber hue, while acrylic is normally crystal clear. You can also find higher quality, thicker backing material tapes at packaging supply houses, which would lessen or even eliminate the tearing of the backer when removing the tape after cutting.

[MTCowpoke22]

I've tried it a few different ways. I really didn't notice any difference by using packing tape on top of the pattern. Except that it would start to lift after so much had been cut, and it would take the pattern with it.

That said, I am absolutely a believer in painters tape. I used to spray the wood directly and attach my pattern. But I was probably using way too much spray glue, or not waiting for it to dry long enough. Because it was always a fight to get all the glue off of the piece. Multiple applications of mineral spirits were needed and even then I had to usually do some sanding/scrapping to get all of the glue off. If it was fine fretwork, you can imagine how easy it was to break something while simply trying to remove the glue. Since I have gone to the blue painters tape, removing the pattern is a lot faster. The tape doesn't leave any residue when peeled off, and for the most part peels off fairly easily.

I think the thing is to find what works for you. I use tape under my pattern for reasons explained above. You don't, and you have your reasons for not doing it.

[Kepy]

This is an interesting discussion.  I think every one of us has to decide what works best for him.  I personally like the blue painter's tape and I often put the clear tape on top, especially if there are small cuts as often the pattern will lift on those.  I did some the other day as was out of the blue tape so just glued to the wood and wiped down with mineral spirits and the whole pattern lifted off complete with no problem.

[dennis123]

Some time ago I started using contact paper rather than the blue painters tape (it's a lot faster to both apply and remove).  I then affix my pattern to the contact paper with spray adhesive and rarely have any problem with pattern lifting.  A while back (I'm not sure why) applied some clear packing tape on top of the pattern and noticed that fuzzies on the back of a baltic birch project almost disappeared.

Just to check, I tried some test patterns (3) to check this out (bb+contact paper+pattern+clear pkg tape).  In each case I put the clear pkg tape on only half of the test projects and in each case, the half of each test with clear pkg tape had significantly fewer fuzzies on the back side.

Dennis

[Rolf]

I did n ot buy into this tape vs no tape thing either, until I did this cherry clock hand where I ran out of tape part way. I did nothing else to this image.

[Sycamore67]

It is the placebo effect or not.  If you believe, it will cut.