Fraiming Failures

[Rockytime]

I have been trying to make frames from rough cedar fence stakes as I like the rustic appearance on wildlife and animal cuttings. To begin with the fence stakes are not uniform in thickness as a regular piece of lumber is. I can't plane one side as I have no planer and have no room to put and use one. I made a sled for my table saw which I am convinced is accurate. Everything is aligned with the blade and carefully checked with machinists squares and oversize drafting triangles. Next I use the Craftsman corner clamps. I have had these over 50 years and never doubted their accuracy. Today I checked then for square. Over 3 inches they seem to be off .020 to .025 inches. I did not have my feelers in the shop but comparing it to a micrometer I believe it to be close.I wonder if anyone else uses these clamps and what else do others use? I'm frustrated.

[OCtoolguy]

14 minutes ago, Rockytime said:

I have been trying to make frames from rough cedar fence stakes as I like the rustic appearance on wildlife and animal cuttings. To begin with the fence stakes are not uniform in thickness as a regular piece of lumber is. I can't plane one side as I have no planer and have no room to put and use one. I made a sled for my table saw which I am convinced is accurate. Everything is aligned with the blade and carefully checked with machinists squares and oversize drafting triangles. Next I use the Craftsman corner clamps. I have had these over 50 years and never doubted their accuracy. Today I checked then for square. Over 3 inches they seem to be off .020 to .025 inches. I did not have my feelers in the shop but comparing it to a micrometer I believe it to be close.I wonder if anyone else uses these clamps and what else do others use? I'm frustrated.

Rockler makes some corner clamping fixtures that would probably be better and easier to work with. Or, you can make a fixture that you could clamp to. I never did trust the pair of those that I had and they were much newer and cheesier made than the ones you have. 

[Sycamore67]

To get corners right you need two things.  Opposite sides must be the same length and angles 45 degrees.  I cut mine with a sled on my table saw and then use a shooting plane to get exact.

[Rockytime]

37 minutes ago, Sycamore67 said:

To get corners right you need two things.  Opposite sides must be the same length and angles 45 degrees.  I cut mine with a sled on my table saw and then use a shooting plane to get exact.

What is a shooting plane?? I use a sled also. 

[Sycamore67]

I made a wooden jig to hold pieces at a 45 degree angle and the use a plane to shave material off the angle piece to get it exactly right.  If you are not into hand tool woodworking, using a plane to shoot a board probably does not make sense.

[Rockytime]

I understand. You are correct as I do not use or have access to hand tools. Thanks for the explanation.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I use band clamps when making frames or segmented pieces. They will flex to whatever angle you have. Examples because there are so many Harbor Freight fans here and love their stuff. https://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-x-15-ft-ratcheting-band-clamp-66220.html If making small frames I use rubber bands. 

As mentioned the two opposing pieces always must be the same length. The angle needs to be 45 degrees. Now you can run into problems if your saw has runout in the arbor. You angle may not be a true 45 degree. 

The use of stop blocks can insure exact lengths or another method is to cut both sides at the same time. Hot glue the piece together or securely tape them together and cut once. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[Rockytime]

Thanks JT. My blade runs perfectly true on the arbor as tested with a Dial Indicator. Harbor Fright is just 10 minutes from me. At less than $7 and even cheaper with a 20% coupon. Might even get a free flashlight  or tape measure of which I have quite a few!

[dgman]

1 hour ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

I use band clamps when making frames or segmented pieces. They will flex to whatever angle you have. Examples because there are so many Harbor Freight fans here and love their stuff. https://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-x-15-ft-ratcheting-band-clamp-66220.html If making small frames I use rubber bands. 

As mentioned the two opposing pieces always must be the same length. The angle needs to be 45 degrees. Now you can run into problems if your saw has runout in the arbor. You angle may not be a true 45 degree. 

The use of stop blocks can insure exact lengths or another method is to cut both sides at the same time. Hot glue the piece together or securely tape them together and cut once. 

I do just as JT, except I use an even cheaper bandclamp. I’ve had them for years so I don’t know what brand they are, but I think they might be a Pony Clamps brand. But the ones JT shows will do the job. As everyone has said, the two most important factors are a perfect 45 degree joint and identical length sides.  

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

2 hours ago, Rockytime said:

Thanks JT. My blade runs perfectly true on the arbor as tested with a Dial Indicator. Harbor Fright is just 10 minutes from me. At less than $7 and even cheaper with a 20% coupon. Might even get a free flashlight  or tape measure of which I have quite a few!

That is good. If you have all the elements listed then no reason you should not get great joints on your frames. One tool I bought many years ago was a lion trimmer. https://www.amazon.com/Rockler-Miter-Trimmer/dp/B07RJ1N5C4/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=Lion+Trimmer&qid=1560055032&s=gateway&sr=8-4 With this tool you can sweeten a joint very easily. I have been using it on all my moldings in the house because not all corners are true 45 degrees. I can dial in anything I want. 

Talk about cheap band clamps, one I have used many many times is a string and a dowel. wrap string around the frame and twist a dowel to tighten the joints. Then just measure diagonals for exactness. Works great too. 

[Roberta Moreton]

Silly question, is your square, square?

[Bill WIlson]

Band clamps for frames are great.  I've used them before.  Sometimes they can be a little awkward, but they work well.

I have something a little different that I like to use.  It's a Pony brand, 4-Corner Framing Clamp.  I paid $17.00 for it, but that was about 10-12 years ago.  It uses 4 pcs of 1/4" all thread stock, four plastic, right angle corner blocks and four nuts that tighten against the corner blocks to draw everything together.  The thing I like about it is that I can put it together, open it up slightly larger than the frame, then glue up the picture frame parts and assemble it inside the clamp.  Then I just start gradually tightening the 4 corner nuts, aligning the miter joints as I go, making sure everything is tight & flush.  Depending on the thickness of the frame stock, I can shoot a couple pin nails in the corners, while the clamp is in place, to help hold everything together.  I've bought extra lengths of 1/4" all thread and coupler nuts at Lowes, to enlarge it.  It does a good job for me.

 

https://ponyjorgensen.com/products/framing-corner-clamps/

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

29 minutes ago, Roberta Moreton said:

Silly question, is your square, square?

That is a machinist square so they are pretty accurate but I always like to use metal draftsman angles. They are dead on.  The one thing that can not get overlooked when making frames and using angles such as 45 degrees, they must be accurate enough that when dry fitted they are good to go. If you try to force close an angle it will always always always open up No matter what fastening system you use. You also try to make the frame from the same material for all sides and preferably from the same board. wood will move and the expand and shrink rate can vary from species to species.   

[Roberta Moreton]

I do understand that but checking only takes a minute. 

[crupiea]

Framing is the one thing that drives me nuts.  well, not the one thing but a major thing. 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

7 hours ago, Roberta Moreton said:

I do understand that but checking only takes a minute. 

He would have to answer that one for you. 

Here is one way to check a square is square. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=how+to+check+a+square+to+see+if+it+is+square+and+true&docid=607995805536421235&mid=963BA2024FEB3CAD83AF963BA2024FEB3CAD83AF&view=detail&FORM=VIREHT

 

The same basic principle is used to check a level to see if it is reading accurate level. The flip method. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[oldhudson]

Here's another approach to clamping picture frames. I've cobbled together these little corner brackets I made. (These brackets can size them to the type of work you do. Note the bottom surface has 80 grit sandpaper attached with double sided carpet tape, it keeps them from sliding.) I clamp these to the sides of the frame and then use a third clamp to pull the corner together. I put a small piece of wax paper under the joint so any squeeze out doesn't get on the bench. I just clamp 2 corners at a time, it gives me time to get the fit right. 

Those corner clamps you're using and just cast stuff, I wouldn't ever expect them to be accurate. Someone gave me a set years ago and I've only used them a couple time in 40 years.

[OCtoolguy]

I haven't had the need to make frames yet but this is a very interesting topic. Following along for future reference.

 

[John B]

A very simple frame clamping system that wont cost more than a few bob.
When the frame is cut, lay all the pieces in their correct positions. Tie a piece of string around the outside of the frame. Once the frame is glued up, replace the string, place 2 small blocks of wood between the string and the frame , in the middle of each side. Now as you slide the pieces of wood towards the corners the string will tighten and you have a simple clamping system.

 

[Rockytime]

I have successfully gotten my HF band clamps to work. Now what glue shall  li use that is slow to cure? It takes a bit of time fiddling to get everything square and tight. I can't have the glue set before I'm finished. 

[OCtoolguy]

47 minutes ago, Rockytime said:

I have successfully gotten my HF band clamps to work. Now what glue shall  li use that is slow to cure? It takes a bit of time fiddling to get everything square and tight. I can't have the glue set before I'm finished. 

Well, at your advanced age, you will need something veeeeeeeery slow to cure. LOL.

 

[Rockytime]

That's EXACTLY what I'm looking for!

[Rockytime]

I have Tite Bond lll, Gorilla Wood glue, Aileen's Tacky, 30 minute epoxy. All seem to dry quickly except for the epoxy. Guess I could try it u less someone in the Village can suggest something better. Thanks 

[dgman]

Les, I use Aleen’s tacky glue. First, I set up the band clamp so it just snug with the frame. Then I loosen the band clamp just enough to remove one side. I apply glue to both ends of the piece then put it back in the band clamp. Then, remove the opposite frame piece and apply glue the each end. Then replace it into the band clamp, then tighten the clamp. As you are tightening the clamp, make sure everything is aligned. It should only take a few seconds to apply glue to four ends. 

Because I make the frame for each project, I’m not worried about making it any particular standard size. The project gets glued into the frame, so I don’t nail the frame together. The four glued corners and the project glued to the frame make it very strong. 

I make the frame sides wide enough to cut a screw hole slot on the router table to the upper rail. That way I don’t have to use wire and eye screws to mount the picture to the wall.

Here is one I just finished up

Edited June 12, 2019 by dgman

[Sycamore67]

Dgman....very nice looking frames.  Can you share how you are cutting the mitered corners.