Famous People & Copy Rights?

[kmmcrafts]

I see a lot of patterns of actors, singers, bands etc.. Not sure what the laws on these patterns are if one was to make and sell the pieces.. I used to see a lot of these portraits on Etsy.. but over the years I see many sellers of these type of designs disappear.. Used to be a person that was cutting portraits of bands and even just the bands name in the shape of a guitar.. and have seen etsy take them down because of copy write.. It seems the copywite owners do a sweep ever so often on etsy and most of these type of things gets taken down.. even if it's just the bands name etc..

While in the scroll saw community lot of folks talk about it being art etc etc.. and maybe you can sell it as art.. But if you use the bands name or famous persons name on etsy it'll get taken down sooner or later.. They claim it's making money off the person if you're using the bands name or famous persons name etc.. It's piggy backing off their fame..

Years ago I did some portraits.. one was Tim Mcgraw and another was Taylor Swift.. I wasn't selling on etsy at that time but was on another venue and the people on this venue mentioned that it was a copy write violation to sell those said portraits.. They claimed that even using the names of people to describe a item was sort of copy write because you're using the name to grab attention of others off the famous name.. 

This stuff might not be a copy write violation for selling at a craft show because you do not have to use words to describe the item and a craft show isn't seen world wide either.. This sis something that online sellers need to watch as more and more online shops opening up every day. Just something to think about.. How do you describe a portrait of Taylor Swift without saying her name so people can find i and know what / who it is, LOL Or how do you describe in words a guitar pick shape that says Beatles on it without using their name etc... This is why I do not sell this type of thing.. I have a Harley jigsaw puzzle ( pattern from Iggy ) that I described as a Harley jigsaw puzzle when I first put it up on etsy either last year or the year before.. anyway only a month later or so it was taken down.. If you go look now.. it just says motorcycle puzzle.. I had it taken down because I used the word Harley..

Those of you selling online might want to reconsider not only some of the things you sell but how you describe what you're selling too... because just using the words will get you.. 

[crupiea]

Good info.

I cut my chops in the tatoo world so I have a bit different thinking about it. 

People will give someone a tattoo of star wars or Disney or whatever sacred cows their might be but have you ever heard of someone ordering them to scrape it off of their arm?  of course not. 

Now If I were to advertise taylor Swift, Disney and NFL tattoos , then that might get some attention.  

I feel that as long as that we are respecting the original artists and businesses they represent ten we should be ok. thats the way i conduct myself anyway.  

How many of us have a John Wayne image?  You dont see his kids coming after us but you also dont see us proclaiming we are the greatest outlet for John Wayne stuff either. 

Just think how search engine algorithms work and math it back. 


 

[kmmcrafts]

8 hours ago, crupiea said:

Good info.

I cut my chops in the tatoo world so I have a bit different thinking about it. 

People will give someone a tattoo of star wars or Disney or whatever sacred cows their might be but have you ever heard of someone ordering them to scrape it off of their arm?  of course not. 

Now If I were to advertise taylor Swift, Disney and NFL tattoos , then that might get some attention.  

I feel that as long as that we are respecting the original artists and businesses they represent ten we should be ok. thats the way i conduct myself anyway.  

How many of us have a John Wayne image?  You dont see his kids coming after us but you also dont see us proclaiming we are the greatest outlet for John Wayne stuff either. 

Just think how search engine algorithms work and math it back. 


 

This is why I bring this up.. If it's not seen then they don't know.. BUT.. How do you sell the stuff online if it's not seen... LOL How do you describe a John Wayne portrait you cut without saying John Wayne wood cutting.. Sure you can leave out that it's John Wayne.. but then who's going to find it or see it.. What's the point of putting it online if you can't describe it for what it is? I don't make this stuff.. But I see people making and selling stuff like this and using the fame of the persons name  so it gets found.. Etsy will take it down... not only will they take it down.. IF they take down 3 or more items they'll shut your shop off.. lock it and you cannot reopen one with your name or your internet providers web address..  

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I think if brought to a court of law they would lose (Etsy) There is so much grey area when it comes to copyright laws that I believe what they are doing is creating a blanket statement and trying to avoid controversy. Without going into all the legal aspects of this because I am not a lawyer but this has come up many times before. You are making a likeness of a famous person. You are making a realistic likeness but not an exact likeness. You are using a third party interpretation of that famous person from a pattern you bought. (now you have the pattern makers legal rights to contend with too) First Amendment rights are always brought up in these cases because of Paparazzi following and taking photos of stars all the time and using them. As far as selling and what to call it I say use words like scrollsawn likeness of famous people or famous bands but do not use their names in the ads. 

[Jim McDonald]

A lot time, famous people will assign management of their image and name to a management company and they are the one pursuing the copyright infringements.

Marilyn Monroe has been dead for than 50 years, yet the management company still licenses her images.  Many others are the same way.

You may be right that no one in going to make you get a tattoo removed--but they could.

I had someone years ago ask me to make some Indianapolis Colts stuff and rather than possibly get involved, I politely refused--invoking copyright protection. I've had some of my photographs used without permission before, so I am a bit touchy about the subject.  Not that I would not have given permission, but they were reprinted without attribution or compensation.

[RangerJay]

At least in my very humble opinion there is a massive chasm here between the "hobby" and the "business" ...

The "hobby" can get away with a lot ..... making one or a very limited number of pieces for an annual craft show is one thing ....

The "business: is another thing entirely ..... advertising pieces for sale .... or copying the images of others to order ..... that have everything to do with furthering your business put you in very dicey territory - you are copying an image to further your own ends ..... period ..... and playing with the image to approximate - but not duplicate - an original likeness does not make it "right" .....

Nope - I am definitely not a lawyer ..... just have a sense of my own values about right and wrong ..... and not saying I got it right .....

Thanks,

 

Jay

[kmmcrafts]

45 minutes ago, RangerJay said:

At least in my very humble opinion there is a massive chasm here between the "hobby" and the "business" ...

The "hobby" can get away with a lot ..... making one or a very limited number of pieces for an annual craft show is one thing ....

The "business: is another thing entirely ..... advertising pieces for sale .... or copying the images of others to order ..... that have everything to do with furthering your business put you in very dicey territory - you are copying an image to further your own ends ..... period ..... and playing with the image to approximate - but not duplicate - an original likeness does not make it "right" .....

Nope - I am definitely not a lawyer ..... just have a sense of my own values about right and wrong ..... and not saying I got it right .....

Thanks,

 

Jay

Even the Hobbyist just getting rid of their pieces not intending to make $$ can find trouble in this stuff... In my mind I think it's more about where / who you're showing..  At a craft show maybe only a few thousand people see the work.. even only 10,000 - 20,000.. But online.. is well.. worldwide.. and for someone to find a John Wayne portrait is a matter of a few clicks on the mouse and wallah.. BUSTED... I try to stay away from making these type things.. that said though.. i do describe my car clocks for what they are.. and that there I suppose could be infringing.. But to get real technical about it all.. there isn't much out there that isn't trademarked or copywritten.. Many many sayings phases etc are copywritten.. fonts, images etc etc etc.. where does one draw the line at? You can have a copywitten free image but use the wrong wording to describe the item and get busted solely on the description rather than the image itself... I see this stuff on a forum designed for Etsy sellers.. people all the time posting they got something taken down.. mainly because they put a search engine tag that said Hello Kitty or any other trademarked name etc.. even though the item was just a cat image with the text bubble saying hello.. They was allowed to relist their item once they took out the tag.. The real issue here is.. after 3 strikes.. Etsy can shut down your shop.. Amazon handmade.. they don't play games.. They'll shut you down on the first offence.. 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I know this opens up the whole copyright infringement thing and as far as I can tell there are no lawyers here that deal with this stuff or if there are I wish they would step forward. But what about the pattern makers making these patterns for sale. They are a business selling the pattern. If Etsy wants to go this route and other stores they can shut down the entire thing because a lawsuit for everything made and sold on their site can be a violation. Now if they go by words used that initself is a violation of free speech thus they can be sued. This is the way I see it. Glad I am not in the business any more. Trademark a name can be the wording used for removal I guess. What a mess. Have fun you all on Etsy and Ebay and Amazon. The rates keep raising and the rules keep getting tighter. 

 

Kevin did you know the use of the words US Army, Navy ,Marines and other branches of service are copyrighted also??? Emblems used can be copyright infringement also. That will be next on those sites. You are in violation unless you have permission from each branch. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

14 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Kevin did you know the use of the words US Army, Navy ,Marines and other branches of service are copyrighted also??? Emblems used can be copyright infringement also. That will be next on those sites. You are in violation unless you have permission from each branch. 

Yes I knew that..

Also to clarify it's not etsy doing the sweeps... etsy cannot judge whether the item is or isn't copywritten.. nor do they know if you have legal permission to sell those said items.. It's companies that the copywrite holders hire to seek and destroy.. Etsy as a company probably likes this good selling stuff because each sale they get a % of the selling price.. You can report suspected infringing items.. but they rarely do anything about it.. but they do have to comply with the companies and the copywrite holders and take down the listings in question.. They send the shop owner a message with info and emails of the people to contact in case you feel they wrongfully took your listing down.. once the company or the copywright holder gives etsy the green light ( if your'e really not infringing ) they will let you put the listing back up..

When it comes down to getting picky with everything.. as you said. they might as well shut down etsy as a whole.. LOL..

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Way over my head and pay grade so good luck to all selling on line. 

[ekud1946]

5 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Way over my head and pay grade so good luck to all selling on line. 

Thank you John T.

Duke

[Travis]

Portraits of celebrities & athletes have their likeness protected.  They're basically a business themselves.  Marilyn Monroe is a great example.  Dale Earnhardt Jr. is another.  If nothing else, the photo the pattern is based on is copyrighted by the photographer.  As craftsmen, we don't have a right to their likeness.  Now it is a tossup as to whether you'll get in trouble or not.  There are agencies that just scour for stuff like this.  They make their money on settlements (rarely going to court), and they split it with the rights owner.  It's also important for the rights owner to police their IP, otherwise it can slip into the public domain and lose their copyright or trademark.

I think for the vast majority of portraits, it's unlikely that they'll say anything.  But there are a few that we try to avoid on SSV.  Dale Earnhardt Jr by his car or in his jumpsuit is asking for trouble.  Licensed characters from movies or comics, album art, or even certain music personalities might be a problem.  Sports teams are notoriously bad.  That is why SSV has our copyright policies as we do.  I don't think I'd be held liable for something someone else posts on the forum, but they can certainly make my life miserable.  Remember, you don't need to win a court case...you just need to run your opponent out of money and the will to fight.

 

But you're right, you can't mention Tim McGraw if you have a portrait for sale, which also means nobody going to find your product.  There's a pretty well known portrait designer, who does amazingly beautiful work of celebrities and licensed characters.  You'll also notice how the order sheet isn't a normal text document or on website...instead it is an image with a thumbnail photo of the pattern code next to it.  The reason for this is webcrawler bots can't read them, and unlikely to be seen by the agencies trolling for violations.  Luckily for him, he's well known and makes most of his sales through private channels.  He's what you mean when you say "I know a guy." 

 

 

 

 

[kmmcrafts]

Right Travis.. This is why I say.. even if your item isn't necessarily a copyright image.. using a trademarked name such as Tim McGraw or other star or famous person in your title or description according to etsy's terms of use.. they have the right to remove the item and also if you have three or more of them or get three warnings.. they have the right to shut down you're shop.. and block you from etsy all together as a seller or buyer. They will shut you down and also shut down and block anyone with the same IP address... At least etsy gives you 3 chances.. eBay and Amazon will do it on the 1st offence.. 

Lot's of people on these venues breaking those TOU laws and copyright laws every day.. it's only a matter of time as to when they find it... and shut down these shops.. I've only mentioned this post mainly because I know there are etsy sellers here on this site.. also know some have materiel or wording that is questionable.. I'm not a person that will directly contact them and say something primarily it's really non of my business.. But I will post a discussion about it hoping that some see my postings and think about the things they sell and the wording they use... 

While on this topic.. selling on a venue like etsy that gives you a warning is a blessing.. because basically what happens is they just remove your infringing listing and you have the option to contact the copyright holder for further info on it etc.. But if you sell on your own website and get a message from the copyright folks you get to deal with them personally...  imagine that wouldn't be very fun at all.. and probably costly too.. 

[ekud1946]

9 hours ago, Travis said:

Portraits of celebrities & athletes have their likeness protected.  They're basically a business themselves.  Marilyn Monroe is a great example.  Dale Earnhardt Jr. is another.  If nothing else, the photo the pattern is based on is copyrighted by the photographer.  As craftsmen, we don't have a right to their likeness.  Now it is a tossup as to whether you'll get in trouble or not.  There are agencies that just scour for stuff like this.  They make their money on settlements (rarely going to court), and they split it with the rights owner.  It's also important for the rights owner to police their IP, otherwise it can slip into the public domain and lose their copyright or trademark.

I think for the vast majority of portraits, it's unlikely that they'll say anything.  But there are a few that we try to avoid on SSV.  Dale Earnhardt Jr by his car or in his jumpsuit is asking for trouble.  Licensed characters from movies or comics, album art, or even certain music personalities might be a problem.  Sports teams are notoriously bad.  That is why SSV has our copyright policies as we do.  I don't think I'd be held liable for something someone else posts on the forum, but they can certainly make my life miserable.  Remember, you don't need to win a court case...you just need to run your opponent out of money and the will to fight.

 

But you're right, you can't mention Tim McGraw if you have a portrait for sale, which also means nobody going to find your product.  There's a pretty well known portrait designer, who does amazingly beautiful work of celebrities and licensed characters.  You'll also notice how the order sheet isn't a normal text document or on website...instead it is an image with a thumbnail photo of the pattern code next to it.  The reason for this is webcrawler bots can't read them, and unlikely to be seen by the agencies trolling for violations.  Luckily for him, he's well known and makes most of his sales through private channels.  He's what you mean when you say "I know a guy." 

 

 

 

 

Kevin, Do you have to have permission to use chevy, ford.,dodge, and etc. on your clocks?

Duke

Edited June 15, 2019 by ekud1946

[Sycamore67]

That is an interesting question about auto images.  I found this concerning General Motors and their website.  

Quote

Copyright 2019 General Motors. All Rights Reserved. All text, images, graphics, animation, videos, music and other materials on this website are subject to the copyright and other intellectual property rights of GM. These materials may not be reproduced, distributed, modified or reposted to other websites without the express written permission of GM

 

[kmmcrafts]

4 hours ago, ekud1946 said:

Kevin, Do you have to have permission to use chevy, ford.,dodge, and etc. on your clocks?

Duke

Yes

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, Sycamore67 said:

That is an interesting question about auto images.  I found this concerning General Motors and their website.  

 

Yes I've mentioned this before.. and most people through my questions out the window.. As I've said.. there is a big difference selling your items at the local craft shows as opposed to selling online.. 

[Sycamore67]

I think it would be interesting to folks about how you secured permission.

[kmmcrafts]

48 minutes ago, Sycamore67 said:

I think it would be interesting to folks about how you secured permission.

Was hoping one of you all would tell me   But since nobody spoke up here is a start..

http://copyright.universityofcalifornia.edu/use/obtaining-permission.html

I believe most of the things we make and sell would fall under the Fair Use but I'm looking into it a little more now that I have my CNC just about ready to run production 

I somewhat have permission from Ford and GM.. but it's in a round about way.. and is only because I am friends with some of the High up white collars that work at both.. They've gave me permission.. I had a Ford clock taken down and once I mentioned the permission from ***** I was cleared.. That said though.. I intend to go through this process outside of these people I know sort of deal.. Because it's not a written statement etc.. or the "real" way to go about it.. 

If nothing else.. I'll be fazing out my car themed clocks so I'm not in wonderland.. wondering if it's really legal.. if I really have permission from these white collar workers I know etc etc.. 

For what it's worth I'll say I've had my 3 strikes on etsy but they never shut my shop down.. maybe because my 3 was spread out over 5-7 years.. My first was because I used the work Cummins in describing a truck clock.. My second was because I used the word Navy to describe the sign I have.. but then some how that one got cleared without me ever contacting them.. I was told it was wrongfully cleared.. I wasn't arguing with then.. then my 3dr was about 10 months ago for a Mustang clock.. which was cleared because of my round about permission.. LOL..

 

As I said previously... I merely brought this topic up more of a heads up for some of the others online sellers to think about.. I know I have questionable things up.. and maybe the others do as well.. I'm working to either A) looking into legal permission for my items OR B) fazing out those items as they sell I won't be putting them back up..      

 

[Scrappile]

The one that gets me is the military emblems.  And I know there is some truth to it.  Several years ago I asked a vendor of scroll saw patterns why they didn't sell a pattern for the Marine Corps.  They "claimed" they use to but received a "Cease and Desist" notice because it was copy righted.  Not so sure I believe this.  How can the Marine Corps or any such entity copy right something that is owned by the people?  And if they can, where is my share of the loot, I'm a Marine???  And if the Gov collects money for something like that, it would be a tax,,,,, wouldn't it?

Edited June 15, 2019 by Scrappile

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I can tell you for sure military products are copyrighted. As I said in jest but it is basically true, everything sold on those sites is copyrighted in one way or other and they could easily shut down the entire site if pursued by these so called henchmen. And kevin hate to say this but Craft shows are not exempt either. Seen it,  been there . The bigger the show the better chance of corporations having spotters out. Sports teams especially college and pro are a huge problem.  I agree wholeheartedly with Paul on the military thing. We the people are the military. Disney, Harley are always at shows. In the pen turning world we make what is called watch blank pens. What we do is take old watches and cast the parts in clear resin to make a unique pen. Where people get in trouble and I fight this all the time and just hate this premise of it has the trademark on it. We take old Disney watches or old Rolex watches and tear them apart and cast these watch blanks. You bought the watch for what it was and when it broke you turned it into something else instead of being wasteful and throwing it away. It no longer functions as a watch. Those people never made an original pen from the parts as described but they still come after people because it has their trademark on it. Like I said copyright laws are so grey and what I described has been fought in court and people have won their case but fighting big corporations gets pricey and you have to ask yourself is it worth it. To muddy the waters even more. A pattern maker makes a pattern and use a Military branch symbol or name and has the right to do so and sells his pattern, does the buyer have the right to make and sell that finished product?? No one seems to be able to answer that with a definite. These conversations have been kicked around on sites for years and taking nothing away from what Travis said is not all black and white. He is trying to protect himself and the site and understood. But get 2 lawyers in a room and you have 50 different responses. It is probably more of these selling sites are coming on line and you see more rules being put in place as you describe. So to simply shut down everything we do will never happen. Do what you do until you get told otherwise and if so get it in writing. Selling on line is and always has been a problem. Depends on the size of the fish is what will determine weather these henchmen go after you. 

Another point, in your link you posted look at "fair use" explanation and #4 in particular. How do you interpret that??  That is what I mean about grey area. How do we impact their sales??  In no way shape or form does what we do have an impact on what these companies do or profits they make and yet here they are  trying to knock off the little guy. A war that can not be solved anytime soon as long as there are lawyers in this world. You always ask yourself though what if the shoe was on the other foot?? Good luck all.   

Edited June 15, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

I can tell you for sure military products are copyrighted. As I said in jest but it is basically true, everything sold on those sites is copyrighted in one way or other and they could easily shut down the entire site if pursued by these so called henchmen. And kevin hate to say this but Craft shows are not exempt either. Seen it,  been there . The bigger the show the better chance of corporations having spotters out. Sports teams especially college and pro are a huge problem.  I agree wholeheartedly with Paul on the military thing. We the people are the military. Disney, Harley are always at shows. In the pen turning world we make what is called watch blank pens. What we do is take old watches and cast the parts in clear resin to make a unique pen. Where people get in trouble and I fight this all the time and just hate this premise of it has the trademark on it. We take old Disney watches or old Rolex watches and tear them apart and cast these watch blanks. You bought the watch for what it was and when it broke you turned it into something else instead of being wasteful and throwing it away. It no longer functions as a watch. Those people never made an original pen from the parts as described but they still come after people because it has their trademark on it. Like I said copyright laws are so grey and what I described has been fought in court and people have won their case but fighting big corporations gets pricey and you have to ask yourself is it worth it. To muddy the waters even more. A pattern maker makes a pattern and use a Military branch symbol or name and has the right to do so and sells his pattern, does the buyer have the right to make and sell that finished product?? No one seems to be able to answer that with a definite. These conversations have been kicked around on sites for years and taking nothing away from what Travis said is not all black and white. He is trying to protect himself and the site and understood. But get 2 lawyers in a room and you have 50 different responses. It is probably more of these selling sites are coming on line and you see more rules being put in place as you describe. So to simply shut down everything we do will never happen. Do what you do until you get told otherwise and if so get it in writing. Selling on line is and always has been a problem. Depends on the size of the fish is what will determine weather these henchmen go after you. 

Another point, in your link you posted look at "fair use" explanation and #4 in particular. How do you interpret that??  That is what I mean about grey area. How do we impact their sales??  In no way shape or form does what we do have an impact on what these companies do or profits they make and yet here they are  trying to knock off the little guy. A war that can not be solved anytime soon as long as there are lawyers in this world. You always ask yourself though what if the shoe was on the other foot?? Good luck all.   

Always been my understanding and from what I have seen of disclaimers on CNC pattern files is.. what many of them say is they are licensed to sell but you need to contact the copyright holder to get your license to sell.. 

As you state JT.. Most of the etsy site could be enough to shut etsy down.. I think most all of us that make project have infringed on some copyrights in some way shape or form.. Some sayings and words are copyright.. such as Faith Hope Love.. It's really hard to know what is and isn't.. I'd be most worried about sports and Disney themed stuff.. Most car stuff isn't bothered either but as I've said.. I maybe just fazing those items out.. or run them till I'm told not too..