Dust Collection....again

[Rockytime]

1 hour ago, Sycamore67 said:

I built a dust collection system in 2013 for my Hegner and connected to a Festool CT26.  It has  worked very well.

 

 

Thanks for posting. That's a good looking system. I used plastic tie-downs to contain everything as I have lots of them and they are quite sturdy. I used the rear of the saw because I have a little tray on the side that is quite handy. I notice you have two loc-lined on the top. Is one vacuum and the other blowing the sawdust toward the vacuum? That makes sense. Can you post a photo of the right side of your saw?

[Rockytime]

Thanks for posting Paul. Good looking DC. Is that from Home Depot? Seems like someone posted a picture of one like it some time ago. Perhaps it was you. I have a lot of connectors from Woodcraft when I made a DC for my lathe. Bought lots of stuff I didn't need. Never returned it as they are about a 40 minute drive traffic. Decided it was not worth it. Ilso bought crappy plastic gates which I never use. They always stick so it is easier to put an old tennis ball in the lines not in use. Works well and is foolproof.

[Rolf]

If you are using a shop vac you may need to put in a suction bleeder so that it doesn't overheat. Any of you using a shop vac have any input on that?

Ray, Yes the swivel is an ordinary PVC union.  I put a bit of silicon grease on the o-ring and then snugged it up just enough so it wings in and out easily. 

I put in the set screw to prevent the ring from loosening. It doesn't take much, just finger tight on the screw. 

Maybe for Christmas this year I will ask for a camera to make some short videos, any recommendations.?

 

 

[Sycamore67]

I do not understand the need for a bleeder.  With dust collectors, if you constrict it wit a small diameter hose, it draws less amps.  The larger the hose the more cfm it sucks and higher amperage.  If only know if this works for vacuums or not.   Below is a graph of data from my dust collector.  As you make the pipe or hose smaller less air can go thru it and the flow, cfm, goes down as does the current.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Sycamore67

[OCtoolguy]

4 hours ago, Rolf said:

If you are using a shop vac you may need to put in a suction bleeder so that it doesn't overheat. Any of you using a shop vac have any input on that?

Ray, Yes the swivel is an ordinary PVC union.  I put a bit of silicon grease on the o-ring and then snugged it up just enough so it wings in and out easily. 

I put in the set screw to prevent the ring from loosening. It doesn't take much, just finger tight on the screw. 

Maybe for Christmas this year I will ask for a camera to make some short videos, any recommendations.?

 

 

I just use my phone. 

[Rolf]

 

Interesting chart,  I would think that the current would go up as the motor strains to maintain it's designed flow rate. 

This could turn into another entirely different discussion. My thinking is if you restrict the flow on your shop vac you can here it working harder to to maintain its suction. If the motor slows down you don't get the same velocity or flow.

[Sycamore67]

The chart I provided is very common with dust collectors.  The amount of work it is doing is related to the amount of air it is pushing.  When you constrict the flow, you reduce the amount of air being pushed reducing the amount of work and current.

On a dust collector if you remove the filter and open up the inlet, you can risk burning up a motor.

[Rolf]

So you are saying that a free running motor with no restrictions draws more current than one under load. That is a tough nut for me to swallow.  I may have to put an amp meter on my circuit. 

[Sycamore67]

The amount of current or work is related to the amount of air being moved.  

If you constrict the intake of a dust collector, you will move less air and the current will be lower.

If you open up the intake of a dust collector, you move more air and the current will be higher.

This is what my graph shows and what has been shown by a bunch of people who have measured it.

[teachnlearn]

5 hours ago, Sycamore67 said:

The amount of current or work is related to the amount of air being moved.  

If you constrict the intake of a dust collector, you will move less air and the current will be lower.

If you open up the intake of a dust collector, you move more air and the current will be higher.

This is what my graph shows and what has been shown by a bunch of people who have measured it.

Your using the word ' constrict '. Recognize as a hose is restricted the motor runs harder, using more energy or amperage. Put your hand over the hose of a vacuum and listen to the motor, it will be screaming. Its gone from moving air to trying to create so many inches of vacuum. Not designed for that, which is what compressors do in refrigerators.

The way your stating it, it breaks the laws of thermodynamics.

The graph has to have a set group to and show two variables. Same brand vac, same size hose, same wire gauge, no extensions. By looking at the graph and looking at a third variable, ie hose size won't work. The graph shows more amps, more air flow, less amps less air flow. More work, more air flow. Less work, less air flow.

To look at hose size either the x axis or y axis would be labeled with the hose size. What happens when I change one thing x to the other thing y.

How fast do I go, x over a amount of time y. Can't look at this graph, and decide what happens to speed when I change weight.

The graph you pasted shows two things, Amps and CFM. There is no information on the graph for hose size. Just not there. RJF

By the way, a few books have been written on reading graphs and misuse. With politics comparisons are common and graph misuse is very common. A very real problem from either the person creating the graph doing things like this intentionally or not. The readers see graphs and either haze over or take the information as fact when the graph is wrong.

One common trick is exactly the above problem; using a graph that doesn't show what they are trying to prove.RJF

Edited August 8, 2019 by teachnlearn

[Sycamore67]

The last post was quite interesting but not correct.  This data was taken during testing of my dust collector.  I used a test pipe and constricted the flow using an funnel into the end of the pipe.  By moving the funnel in and out, I was able to control the amount of “constriction” and therefore the flow of air.  This is a common methodology for testing a dust collector.  The air flow was obtained using a hot wire anemometer and a digital static pressure gauge.  Flow readings were taken across the pipe in accordance with standard duct measurement procedures and multiple tests were done.  At the same time, for each “constriction”, a current measurement was done with a clamp on meter.  Also, the testing was done with various sized hoses and the data from the two types of tests were identical.  The data that I obtained was very close to that from the mfg.  

It does not matter if I constrict the flow with the funnel test setup or with a hose, I still get the same amps for a given flow, cfm.  

You imply that I did not properly use the graph.  

Please explain exactly which law of thermodynamics you think I am breaking.   While I have used thermodynamics extensively through my career, I have no idea what you are suggesting. 

Please, if you have some data on dust collectors which refutes what I have posted, please show it to the forum.   Have you done similar testing?  

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Sycamore67

[Sycamore67]

While I know that the graph that I showed is correct for my dust collectors, I do not know for certain that it applies to the shop vacuums which have a different type of motor.  I ordered some parts which I will have on Friday and be able to run the tests.  As I mentioned before, I have seen several graphs for different dust collectors which show the same type of variation of amps and flow.  

If people have doubts about my dust collector test results, I have published them on Lumberjocks forum with lots of graphs.  You can read them if you  are interested in my methodology and results here and here.

[Rolf]

Sycamore, Based on your images and the way you measured the current I am convinced that your data is correct. I wonder if the results would be the same if the out flow was restricted i.e. clogged filters. I really enjoy these technical discussions. Thanks 

I look forward to what results you get with a shop vac.

[Rolf]

Sycamore,  Thank you for the testing that you have done. Your use of a clamp on current meter and the line splitter intrigued me. 

So having always wanted a clamp on current meter you gave me the nudge I needed to buy one, and yes I also got the splitter.

They will be a great trouble shooting toll for my shop. 

 

 

[Rolf]

I haven't had much time to play with my new current meter, but I did a quick test yesterday. 

I plugged my Jet Vortex Dust Collector 1.5HP w/Canister Filter DC-1100VX-CK into the splitter. Clamped on the meter.

I have 4 inch PVC ducts longest run about 40 feet with multiple elbows.

Some quick numbers. All intakes closed 5.2A, the closest open 8.2A,  32ft mark open 7A, 

two 4" gates open 8.8A  my end of the run is a 2" opening at a router table  @~ 50 feet 6.1A

So with these results it proves to me what Sycamore was saying is correct! The more air that is available to move raises the current.

Reduced air flow lowers the current. I will play with my Festool  and Shop vac when I get a chance.

[Rockytime]

On 8/5/2019 at 5:07 PM, Sycamore67 said:

I built a dust collection system in 2013 for my Hegner and connected to a Festool CT26.  It has  worked very well.

 

 

Hi Larry, Your dust collection is interesting and your saw is the same as mine. My question is about the loc-line connectors. You have a connector on the hose from the bellows as well as one on the upper vacuum. Did you make the connectors or are they something available from Loc-line? I don't recall off hand the correct spelling for Loc-line.

[Sycamore67]

The connector from the white PVC to the Loc-Line to is a standard pipe thread.  The Loc-Line one comes from them and you can see it either on their website or on Amazon.

The connector on the bellows hose is a barbed connector with threads on the other side and the Loc-Line is similar but smaller than the one in the PVC.

The block of wood with the stuff for the bellows part came from Mike's Workshop but you can make one.  I will take a picture close up later today.

[kmmcrafts]

On 8/16/2019 at 10:04 AM, Rolf said:

I haven't had much time to play with my new current meter, but I did a quick test yesterday. 

I plugged my Jet Vortex Dust Collector 1.5HP w/Canister Filter DC-1100VX-CK into the splitter. Clamped on the meter.

I have 4 inch PVC ducts longest run about 40 feet with multiple elbows.

Some quick numbers. All intakes closed 5.2A, the closest open 8.2A,  32ft mark open 7A, 

two 4" gates open 8.8A  my end of the run is a 2" opening at a router table  @~ 50 feet 6.1A

So with these results it proves to me what Sycamore was saying is correct! The more air that is available to move raises the current.

Reduced air flow lowers the current. I will play with my Festool  and Shop vac when I get a chance.

I'd be very curious about the results on the Festool.. This is on my list to buy so I can hook up all my scroll saws to dust collection... even though I run a fan with filter on the back, and run the filtration box up by the ceiling.. I'm getting quite a mess in the shop still, I'd like to get this all plumbed and also plumb up my bigger HF collector to the other machines table saw, band saw, and cnc.. I only have it hooked to my planer right now..   

[Sycamore67]

The attachment on my Hegner which transitions from the bellows hose to the Loc-Line is shown below.  The wooden block is 1" x 1.5" x 2.5" and made of pine but any wood will do.  One side has a barbed fitting with pipe threads on one end that are just screwed into the wooden block.  The other side of the block with the Loc-Line is also drilled and the part screwed into it.  The Loc-Line is available on Amazon for $8.24 and is part number 40413.  

 

[Sycamore67]

Rather than add on to this thread, I started a new one called "Kerfuffle - Dust Collection - Vacs and Amps"  which details the results of testing the amps of two vacuum cleaners with the hose open and blocked.  And, yes the amps drop when you block the end of the hose.  

[Rolf]

I haven't had much shop time lately as I have been distracted by this project. Building a trailer mover so that I can move my boat into a difficult location behind a tree that has grown to the point where my Jeep will no longer fit. The trailer mover gave me a chance to do lots of TIG welding. Have to say I really enjoyed the mechanical distraction. 

I have a temporary jumper box attached for power, it will use my boat battery when in normal use. That is my other hobby behind it.

[Jim McDonald]

The man sculpts in wood and now metal.  We bow humbly before you!

[JimErn]

Beautiful work, but more importantly, tell me about the car used as a back drop.

[Rolf]

Talk about hijacking a topic Sorry!  The Car is a 1970 TVR Vixen one of approximately 180 in this series to be exported. I have owned it for 48 years. I purchased it when stationed in England, it was a year old. I have done I have done three restorations in all those years. The last body off in 1998. I do all of my own work except this time I had the body painted and the interior done professionally. I also completely rewired the car as the old wiring was failing. The motor is a 1.6 liter Ford (tweaked a bit). Soon to be tweaked some more.

A couple pictures for your amusement. One gives you an idea of size the other was me making sure I still fit in the seat.

 

Regarding scrolling Charles Dearing did a custom pattern of the car  for me years ago I that I still need to cut.

[Sycamore67]

Nice car but I could not get into out.  I buy a car first based on how easy to get into and love my Jeep Grand Cherokee. With all the gizmos especially backup camera.