Small Shop Heating

[kmmcrafts]

Was talking to a local woodworker that said the safest way to heat a dusty shop is to put in a electric hot water heater and plum it to a radiator with a small pump.. Just thought the idea was interesting.. Not sure how efficient it would be but might be an idea for those with a smaller work shop.. I don't think it'd work too well for my larger shop.. 

[JimErn]

I lived with radiators a lot of years, learned to hate them, seems no matter how hot the water is it just does not do much more than heat the immediate, and I mean immediate area.  Even with tin foil on the wall behind it that was little help.

But, a friend did that with several radiators (the old copper kind) daisy chained around his garage, that worked fairly well.  Your mentioning radiator reminded me of his his set up.

[OzarkSawdust]

3 hours ago, JimErn said:

I lived with radiators a lot of years, learned to hate them, seems no matter how hot the water is it just does not do much more than heat the immediate, and I mean immediate area.  Even with tin foil on the wall behind it that was little help.

But, a friend did that with several radiators (the old copper kind) daisy chained around his garage, that worked fairly well.  Your mentioning radiator reminded me of his his set up.

I bought an old house in NE years ago. It had hot water heat...in the winter the only way to really get warmed up was to sit on a radiator! A year or two later it was ripped put and replaced with a new gas forced air heater...much better!

[CharleyL]

Don't go this way if you live where temperatures can fall below freezing or your water in the system will need anti freeze added to it in case it's off when the temperatures do fall this low. The idea of heating directly or indirectly from electric power is an expensive way to heat too, unless a heat pump (reversible air conditioner) can be used. My shop has a 24K BTU window style heat pump mounted high and through the North wall of my shop. It keeps my shop above freezing and around 70 degrees whenever I'm working in there, but I live in North Carolina where heat pumps work quite efficiently, and not in the Great White North. No part of a heat pump system ever gets hot enough to ignite paper or wood, so it's very safe. With a good pleated air filter, it makes a good shop air cleaner too.

When I lived in NY State, my shop was heated by an oil fired hot air furnace in a separate room from the shop, and I filtered the air going through it with good pleated filters.

Charley

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by CharleyL

[Wilson142]

Having lived in Minnesota for nearly 50 yrs of my life, I lived in many places heated with boilers and hot water radiators. I don't remember freezing to death and got a chuckle about needing to top off my antifreeze, even though 20-30 below temps were common. I went to several schools that were radiator heated. Once again, never froze if I wasn't seated next to the rad. Not a fan of hot water heat mostly due to the lack of vents, so adding air conditioning was a problem, but a properly maintained hot water system is different then what some have said here. Many people painted the radiators which reduced the efficiency and they can be insightly.  I don't know if a hot water heater would work anywhere as well as an actual boiler.

[RangerJay]

If you live in an area with genuine "cold" in winter then you want to make sure your heating source can circulate to the entire shop - nothing worse than working on a cold concrete floor that never warms up in the middle of winter. In both my shops I've used a ceiling mount furnace - wouldn't use anything else.  First shop was propane - expensive - shop I'm in now is natural gas - no where near as much to operate.

[kmmcrafts]

My cars heat with hot water.. I'm not usually froze unless they haven't warmed up to temp yet.. I think what the fellow I talked with was using obviously a homemade set up with hot water heater and a couple car radiators.. with car electric fans that normally cool the engine.. These fans can be hooked up to a thermostat much like the car has.. when the car gets hot.. they kick on to cool the car engine.  Remember I did say " small shop "  This wouldn't work for a shop like mine that is 24 x 32.. but a small shed 12 x 10 or something I could see this working quite well to heat.. after all.. the small heater core in a car is only about 1/4 the size of a large radiator that cools the engine.. and they heat up large vans just fine..

For those living in the south where it doesn't get below freezing.. you could pipe out some lines and put them on your roof.. let the sun pre-heat the hot water for the water heater so it's not as costly to heat the water.. 

As for freezing temps.. just leave the pump on.. moving water does't freeze nearly as easy as standing water does.. This is why they say to leave a small drip of water running in extreme cold temps to help prevent your pipes from freezing.. 

[JimErn]

when the car gets hot.. they kick on to cool the car engine.

Technically, since I just got back from PT and am feeling onery, the water gets hot, and the fan cools the water in the radiator, the thermostat measures the water temperature.

[Jim McDonald]

Actually, the thermostat opens and closes at certain temperatures to keep the water at a certain temperature and a thermal switch controls the fans.

The thermostat is actually a "dumb" valve.

[kmmcrafts]

Right, but the thermostat on the hot water heater will keep the water warm.. so then the thermal switch could control the fans to a temp.. but.. you'd need a thermal switch that you could set the temp on.. a car runs at around 180 - 210 ish degrees.. a hot water heater "legal " limit is I believe 120.. for a home.. I know some people who run theirs at 130-140.. but it's not recommended..  

[JimErn]

1 hour ago, Jim McDonald said:

Actually, the thermostat opens and closes at certain temperatures to keep the water at a certain temperature and a thermal switch controls the fans.

The thermostat is actually a "dumb" valve.

Yeppers, I messed that one up.

The thermostat is a value, and the measurement of water temp I was referring to, typically opens around 180*F, allows the cooler radiator water to mix with the engine water.  The temp gauge is usually about midway on the block (front to back) and runs the gauge on the dash.

 

Mea culpa, one day I will get the brain and the fingers to work together well. 

[JimErn]

I figure if you plumbed a water heater through a pump, and had circulating how water in the lines and some car radiators, you don't need the fans.  You could turn the pump on and off with a simple on the wall thermostat like in the house.  With water circulating it is being cooled, when not circulating the hot water heater thermostat would stop heating the water and hold it ready just like it does now.

[CharleyL]

13 hours ago, Wilson142 said:

Having lived in Minnesota for nearly 50 yrs of my life, I lived in many places heated with boilers and hot water radiators. I don't remember freezing to death and got a chuckle about needing to top off my antifreeze, even though 20-30 below temps were common. I went to several schools that were radiator heated. Once again, never froze if I wasn't seated next to the rad. Not a fan of hot water heat mostly due to the lack of vents, so adding air conditioning was a problem, but a properly maintained hot water system is different then what some have said here. Many people painted the radiators which reduced the efficiency and they can be insightly.  I don't know if a hot water heater would work anywhere as well as an actual boiler.

 

I meant that for people who have separate shops and aren't there every day to make certain that the heat is still on and the temperature inside is still above freezing. Hot water systems break up pretty badly if left non-running in below freezing Weather. A neighbor of mine where I once lived in NY State had a second heat system for heating his sidewalks and driveway. So he didn't have to run it all the time, he put anti-freeze in the circulating water. Every time it snowed or got icy, he would fire up this system and keep the ice and snow from sticking to his sidewalks and driveway. I'm certain that it cost him a lot to have ice and snow free walks, but he could go away on vacation and not worry about the system freezing up while he was gone. Today, someone like this would also have it controlled by his cell phone, so he could turn it on while he was away on vacation.

Charley

[Woodmaster1]

Great suggestions, but for me the best and cheapest method to heat my shop was a natural gas bigmaxx furnace. It was easy to install and my son in law ran the gas for a case of beverage. The apartment above the shop is electric heat and it cost more to heat than the shop. I am glad the apartment is only used by relatives, or my older kids when they visit. I am going to covert it gas next year.

[Wilson142]

9 hours ago, CharleyL said:

 

I meant that for people who have separate shops and aren't there every day to make certain that the heat is still on and the temperature inside is still above freezing. Hot water systems break up pretty badly if left non-running in below freezing Weather. A neighbor of mine where I once lived in NY State had a second heat system for heating his sidewalks and driveway. So he didn't have to run it all the time, he put anti-freeze in the circulating water. Every time it snowed or got icy, he would fire up this system and keep the ice and snow from sticking to his sidewalks and driveway. I'm certain that it cost him a lot to have ice and snow free walks, but he could go away on vacation and not worry about the system freezing up while he was gone. Today, someone like this would also have it controlled by his cell phone, so he could turn it on while he was away on vacation.

Charley

When I left my lake cabin after a weekend of ice fishing, I simply turned the water off and drained the system. Took about the same amount of time as it took to load the car. I agree, turning the heat off without draining can be a disaster.

[kmmcrafts]

39 minutes ago, Woodmaster1 said:

Great suggestions, but for me the best and cheapest method to heat my shop was a natural gas bigmaxx furnace. It was easy to install and my son in law ran the gas for a case of beverage. The apartment above the shop is electric heat and it cost more to heat than the shop. I am glad the apartment is only used by relatives, or my older kids when they visit. I am going to covert it gas next year.

Natural gas is the way to go for cheaper heating options.. I can't get it though.. so it's electric or LP for me.. I eventually want to get that bigmaxx furnace.. But the price of the furnace and the install piping etc etc.. is a bit out of my price at the moment.. being tired of doing this in the cold with no heat at all for the past 10 years.. I opted to this heater https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/heaters/electric-garage-heaters/dyna-glo-5-000-watt-240-volt-electric-garage-heater/eg5000dgc/p-1562567355750-c-6328.htm?tid=-5823164050771698380&ipos=5

Already had the wire and breaker to hook it up.. Intend to make a temporary wall to only heat a small portion of the shop.. also don't intend to keep the shop at T-shirt  temps.. I can deal with 35F - 40.. I've read a lot of reviews on these heaters and many loved them also many claim that it heated their bigger than mine shop great.. I will see once I get it hooked up.. hopeful it'll do the trick a couple years.. at least until my daughter is done with college and I can keep my money instead of giving it to the college, LOL 

[spirithorse]

While on the discussion of heat, I thought maybe these little snippets may help some people for 
just a GENERAL idea of what is actually needed.

GAS HEAT

How many BTUs Do I Need?
As a rule of thumb, you need between 40 to 45 BTUs to heat one square foot of your home. If your home is 2,000 square feet in size, you need a heating system that generates between 80,000 and 90,000 BTUs.

ELECTRIC HEAT

How to pick the right wattage to heat your room 
cadetheat.com/blog/right-wattage-heater
 If you’re using a Cadet heater for a little extra warmth in a room that’s already heated by a some other form of heat, you can use less wattage. In other words, a 1,500-watt heater will be great for a 250-square-foot room with central heat. If that same room had no other source of heat, you’d need a 2,000-watt heater.

I have also heard it said many times that there just seems to be that little intangible between Gas heat and Electric heat
where people insist that a room heated to 72 degrees by gas just seems warmer and cozier than a room heated to the same 72 degrees by electric heat.

Please, don't shoot the messenger! Just passing on some tid bits.

God Bless! Spirithorse

[kmmcrafts]

39 minutes ago, spirithorse said:

While on the discussion of heat, I thought maybe these little snippets may help some people for 
just a GENERAL idea of what is actually needed.

GAS HEAT

How many BTUs Do I Need?
As a rule of thumb, you need between 40 to 45 BTUs to heat one square foot of your home. If your home is 2,000 square feet in size, you need a heating system that generates between 80,000 and 90,000 BTUs.

ELECTRIC HEAT

How to pick the right wattage to heat your room 
cadetheat.com/blog/right-wattage-heater
 If you’re using a Cadet heater for a little extra warmth in a room that’s already heated by a some other form of heat, you can use less wattage. In other words, a 1,500-watt heater will be great for a 250-square-foot room with central heat. If that same room had no other source of heat, you’d need a 2,000-watt heater.

I have also heard it said many times that there just seems to be that little intangible between Gas heat and Electric heat
where people insist that a room heated to 72 degrees by gas just seems warmer and cozier than a room heated to the same 72 degrees by electric heat.

Please, don't shoot the messenger! Just passing on some tid bits.

God Bless! Spirithorse

Thanks for the information.. I've seen this before somewhere in doing my research. I've also found contradicting info.. then you have the people that claim that a 3000 watt heater heats their 30 x 40 shop to T-shirt degrees.. makes it more confusing than ever to figure out what you really need... I also wonder how they calculate these findings.. Heating a shop to 70F vrs heating it to a 40 -50F might make the difference in what you need for a heater? Then you have efficiency.. a 3000 watt heater might run 3 times longer to maintain the heat.. while a 5000 watt heater uses more power.. it may heat up so much faster that it actually runs less time and less energy to do it.. I bought that heater I link to above for the simple reason I don't intend to heat the whole 24 x 32 shop.. I may not need the 5000 watt.. and it runs on 3 different levels so I may only need the 3000 watt ( low setting ) 

Electric heat power consumption into $$ is figured by the watt of heater.. ie 5000 watt x 24 hours divided by 1000 x cost per kilowatt.. 5000 x 24 =120,000 divided by 1000 =  120 x $0.20 = $24 NOW that is the cost if it runs continuous for the 24 hour period..  

[teachnlearn]

Heating calculation is done by a heating calculation booklet called J calculation, which is now in software. It takes into account what the walls are made of, how thick, how much insulation, how many windows, what type, e glass, 2 pane, wood, vinyl, location lat, longat. sun exposure, cubic footage of each room, how many rooms, size stove in kitchen, how many bedrooms, IE people give off heat. This can be purchased online, fill out about 3 to 4 pages of infor and its plugged into software. The calculations of heat load are sent back and many calculate the size of ducts for each room. I did some intern work at GE and use to do the paper booklet, since no one wanted to do the math and reference charts. RJF

https://www.loadcalc.net/

Software sample RJF

https://www.elitesoft.com/web/hvacr/elite_rhvacw_info.html

Edited November 24, 2019 by teachnlearn

[OCtoolguy]

Or, worse case scenerio, you could move to So Cal. Even when it gets "cold" here, I just turn on my little electric heater and set it come off and on as needed. The downside is, there are already 30 million folks here ahead of you. LOL.

 

[OzarkSawdust]

On 11/23/2019 at 7:51 AM, kmmcrafts said:

Natural gas is the way to go for cheaper heating options.. I can't get it though.. so it's electric or LP for me.. I eventually want to get that bigmaxx furnace.. But the price of the furnace and the install piping etc etc.. is a bit out of my price at the moment.. being tired of doing this in the cold with no heat at all for the past 10 years.. I opted to this heater https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/heaters/electric-garage-heaters/dyna-glo-5-000-watt-240-volt-electric-garage-heater/eg5000dgc/p-1562567355750-c-6328.htm?tid=-5823164050771698380&ipos=5

Already had the wire and breaker to hook it up.. Intend to make a temporary wall to only heat a small portion of the shop.. also don't intend to keep the shop at T-shirt  temps.. I can deal with 35F - 40.. I've read a lot of reviews on these heaters and many loved them also many claim that it heated their bigger than mine shop great.. I will see once I get it hooked up.. hopeful it'll do the trick a couple years.. at least until my daughter is done with college and I can keep my money instead of giving it to the college, LOL 

I've got one of those in my shop, but it's a different brand name...same heater. An electrician friend had it in a part of his shop for a couple of months till his big heater came in. It was just sitting on a shelf so I got a real good deal on it. Las fall I had my shop spray foamed! Now I work in an Igloo cooler...lol. A guy in KS was doing a motel remodel and had some extra spray foam liquid...use it or throw it away. So I git that job done at a real good price also. That combo does a decent job...when I need more heat I fire up a big patio heater for a few min...then shut it off. 

When we replaced the cheap crappy gas fireplace, that was in the house when we bought it, I had the guys put in a T and cap it for future use. Next summer I'll run a pipe from there out the corner of the house into the shop (about 10-15 ft.) and I'll be looking for a gas furnace. With any luck a friend with a plumb./ht./ac company can find a good deal on something.    

[OzarkSawdust]

28 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

Or, worse case scenerio, you could move to So Cal. Even when it gets "cold" here, I just turn on my little electric heater and set it come off and on as needed. The downside is, there are already 30 million folks here ahead of you. LOL.

 

Till they turn off the electricity.....

[kmmcrafts]

We are going to be remodeling after the busy holidays.. and part of that is a a new heat / ac system for the house.. the old one has only been used one full season and very little other than that once season.. but it is from 1994.. I've contemplated putting it up in my loft and running vents down into the shop on each side instead of buying the Bigmaxx heater I wanted..   

[OCtoolguy]

1 hour ago, OzarkSawdust said:

Till they turn off the electricity.....

Never happen by the beach.

[Rockytime]

6 degrees early this AM but the a nice balmy 13 degrees later in the morning. Went out to the shop to check the the temperature. Temperature held at 52 degrees. Even so I did no scrolling as there was too much to to get ready for tomorrow. Happy Thanksgiving to all my friends here!