Dead Excelsior Scroll Saw

[William O Young]

My expensive and seldom used Excelsior scroll  saw will not start . I have not used it for about a year but it has always been in a warm heated shop.  I have bypassed the foot switch in case that was it but it wasn't . Before I start pulling it apart to check switch etc , I thought I would ask here fist if anyone else had this happen to their excelsior and what they found to be the cause . 

[OCtoolguy]

Try turning the motor's armature with a screwdriver through the end of the motor. If it sat that long, it might just have stopped on a "dead" spot. The linkage in this type of saw will sometimes stop in a neutral position that requires moving it from "high center". Good luck. I doubt that it is anything serious.

[dgman]

Welcome to the Village William! The first thing to check is to see if your electric circuit is live. Plug in something that you know works. If it is live, then check to see if the fuse is blown. Good luck!

[William O Young]

Of course I have tried all the usual things like blowing it out with compressed air and flipping on and off repeatedly and of course the receptacle it is plugged into is live . I have also turned the motor over several times with a screwdriver But I do not know if that saw has a fuse or not . No mention of it in the manual . So it looks like a defective motor on a saw  that has less than 20 hours on it. We all know how ridiculous high cost motors are on any tools .  I am an advanced scroller having made Dome  clock and Roman Cathedral and  over 100 clocks of various sizers. Have worn out both a Delta and DeWalt in the past . This saw was "supposed" to be a good one. 

I was able to get the switch out this morning and bypass it .So it is not the switch and most likely the motor if there is no fuse . 

That saw is $720.00 in US funds and  $972.00 in Canadian funds where I live. Have not checked yet but I bet a new motor would cost way over half the price of the saw if it compares with other types of motor powered tools . 

[dgman]

Hey William, I don’t know if I can help anymore with your saw, but I just wanted to say it’s good to hear from you again. I know you used to be active on other forums and you just faded away. I hope you can sort your saw problems out and visit us more often. 
For SSV members, William is a very accomplished scroller and turner that a lot of us looked up to for a long time!

[OCtoolguy]

According to the parts breakdown on the Excalibur, there is a small 3.5 amp fuse but I don't see where it it located. It appears to be inside of the saw near the line cord plug in. I couldn't find a similar breakdown for the Excelsior.

[William O Young]

8 minutes ago, dgman said:

Hey William, I don’t know if I can help anymore with your saw, but I just wanted to say it’s good to hear from you again. I know you used to be active on other forums and you just faded away. I hope you can sort your saw problems out and visit us more often. 
For SSV members, William is a very accomplished scroller and turner that a lot of us looked up to for a long time!

Got it  by process of elimination down to being pretty sure it will be the motor if there is no fuse in that saw. Checked out Seyco site as parts supplier. They show picture of the motor but no price. I expect the motor would be VERY expensive . Does anyone here know of a supplier of parts that shows actual price of motor ?

I have been doing mostly turning of advanced  segmented , laminated and dizzy/vortex bowls in recent years  That is why that saw has less than 20 hours on it from brand new .

I am getting thoroughly  discouraged with the quality of power tools being flogged on the market with high prices from China .Every time I turn around there is a major part to buy .  I just replaced  a $265.00 part on my Jet Drum sander a couple weeks  ago .Woodworking has become a hobby for the wealthy and is why I will be selling out the entire contents of my shop first of the year.

I just sold my 2 3/4 HP seldom used Bosch router and Bosch router table as a start a couple days ago . Of course I can't sell this scroll saw that isn't working and any way I go about it , it will cost me a LOT  of money just to get rid of it . Probably more than I paid for it if I have to replace the motor. Either that or sell it cheap for parts . 

[teachnlearn]

https://forum.scrollsawer.com/forum/scroll-saw/tools-and-blades/42671-excalibur-21-repair

General forum above.

Call or email the Seyco. Having designed and help trouble shoot electronic equipment for my profession I never had a problem with any call to help out. Calls are valuable to the people making the equipment as much as yourself. If something is happening, it helps to be contacted and look into whats going on to correct a problem and redesign on the next model. Your problem multiples is a mgrs. quality control headache and their reputation suffers if it gets around there are defects. RJF

 

https://www.seyco.com/

Edited November 30, 2019 by teachnlearn

[William O Young]

17 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

According to the parts breakdown on the Excalibur, there is a small 3.5 amp fuse but I don't see where it it located. It appears to be inside of the saw near the line cord plug in. I couldn't find a similar breakdown for the Excelsior.

Thanks Ray , I have now gone over the parts list in the manual  for the third time and it does indeed show a fuse as #38 in the list but the exploded  parts diagram shows no mention of where they are hiding it.  Just shows it out all by itself on the page . I will search again and sure hope I can find where they are hiding that fuse .I hope  I don't have to tear the saw apart to find it soldered onto  the printed circuit board which is where I suspect it might be .

If I can just get it working I will get rid of it as fast as I can while it is working . 

[teachnlearn]

A few manufactures buy plugs that have a insert in between the plug in blades, If the fuse is there, pry out the insert, will show the fuse. Very common for Xmas lights, very few machines have this, but its easy to check. May ave to follow wire and tear everything apart. Or just call Seyco and ask. Its silly to pay shipping each way to replace a fuse. RJF

[OCtoolguy]

2 minutes ago, William O Young said:

Thanks Ray , I have now gone over the parts list in the manual  for the third time and it does indeed show a fuse as #38 in the list but the exploded  parts diagram shows no mention of where they are hiding it.  Just shows it out all by itself on the page . I will search again and sure hope I can find where they are hiding that fuse .I hope  I don't have to tear the saw apart to find it soldered onto  the printed circuit board which is where I suspect it might be .

If I can just get it working I will get rid of it as fast as I can while it is working . 

If it means anything to you at all, I bought a used EX21 that was a 2010 built saw. I love it and would not part with it. I hope you can get yours fixed even if it's to sell it. But, with that said, no matter what the item is, there are bound to be lemons. Don't let this experience ruin your thinking on the original EX saws. Try to find one of them or maybe invest in the new Pegas saw. So far, there has been zero talk of any problems with them. Please keep us updated on what you find wrong. Those of us who have similar saws would like to be kept in the loop as to their frailties. 

 

[JimErn]

The fuse in the parts diagram listing says, EX21-A38, meaning it is only on the Ex-21.  You did not say if your saw was a 16, or 21

I would also look at parts 31&32, that appears to be the speed control.  If it is open, no current will pass and the motor could not run

[kmmcrafts]

I'm doubting its the motor.. Very very few complaints on these motors.. My guess IF it has a fuse it's that OR the speed control.. which I believe is part of the circuit board.. I've seen plenty of people over the years having to replace that speed control..  

[OCtoolguy]

10 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I'm doubting its the motor.. Very very few complaints on these motors.. My guess IF it has a fuse it's that OR the speed control.. which I believe is part of the circuit board.. I've seen plenty of people over the years having to replace that speed control..  

Kevin, are you referring to the rheostat that sets your speed or the actual controller?

 

[William O Young]

9 minutes ago, JimErn said:

The fuse in the parts diagram listing says, EX21-A38, meaning it is only on the Ex-21.  You did not say if your saw was a 16, or 21

I would also look at parts 31&32, that appears to be the speed control.  If it is open, no current will pass and the motor could not run

It is a XL-16 saw. Fuse No 38 , part #2400160380. My background in early years  as a certified  radio and TV   technician with my own radio/TV sales and service shop   and showroom  means dealing with replacing a fuse either in clips or soldered to a circuit board is something I could easily deal with  but only after finding the fuse .Where they have hidden it in this saw is a mystery to me but I can  only suspect it being right on the circuit board. Looks like a beast of a job to pull that saw apart to look for the fuse just in case that "might" be the problem instead of a dead motor.  Not wasting any  more time on it now .The items I wanted to cut out on a commission basis  for next week have now been cancelled . I will pull it all apart in the new year to see if I can get it working  at a minimum cost in order sell it . This thing is nothing but  glorified DeWalt and I wore one of those out  in 3 years  and replaced it with a commercial quality P-20 Wish I had never sold that saw.I feel sure the person that got it is still using it .

At the back left side  at the bottom there is  a plastic plug with a screwdriver slot to remove it. I took that out and it shows a small part of the circuit board inside there. No fuse showing and no useable parts on the board.Why they have the plug and a view of the board is beyond me because nothing could be repaired through that hole . 

 

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[Scrappile]

Take the screws out of the back and the part with the circuit board and electronics can be pulled down and out.  At, least it can if is it the same as an Excalibur.  I took one out once, if I can figure it out......well....

[William O Young]

14 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I'm doubting its the motor.. Very very few complaints on these motors.. My guess IF it has a fuse it's that OR the speed control.. which I believe is part of the circuit board.. I've seen plenty of people over the years having to replace that speed control..  

And so have I seen many people change the circuit boards on DeWalts .I was one of them along with all the knocking noise adjustments and bad switch's and other issues to keep my Dewalt working before I sold it for 100 bucks. It would not surprise me one bit if the Excellsior has the very same circuit board as the DeWalt . 

[kmmcrafts]

5 minutes ago, William O Young said:

And so have I seen many people change the circuit boards on DeWalts .I was one of them along with all the knocking noise adjustments and bad switch's and other issues to keep my Dewalt working before I sold it for 100 bucks. It would not surprise me one bit if the Excellsior has the very same circuit board as the DeWalt . 

I agree.. probably are the same one.. I've rebuilt a my DeWalt and my Excalibur.. I've had a lot of people over the years trying to tell me the EX type saws have sealed bearings.. The one I have doesn't.. exact same bearing as the DeWalt.. Sleeves are different but the bearings are the same thing.. same numbers on the bearings.. same manufacture..  Not sure how they last any longer than a DW does.. but many claim they do.. Maybe the older EX saws did have.. Mine is the newer China made one.. I've had a lot of problems with that saw..

I'll always be keeping my RBI Hawks around..

There are a lot of those old P-20's out there still running good.. You should have hung on to the one you had.. Back when those were the hot saw to have is back when I first started sawing.. Was saving money selling my crafts trying to get one of those P-20's.. The last one on the showroom floor of my local tool shop sold before I could get my hands on it.. They was sure one heck of a solid machine..  

[kmmcrafts]

26 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

Kevin, are you referring to the rheostat that sets your speed or the actual controller?

 

The rheostat... I think is what they end up having to change.. whatever it is.. it's on the circuit board.. as Ray sells you a whole new board.. It's a different set up than my Hawk.. I replaced a $4 rheostat in the one saw I have... not because it was bad... but because I broke it when doing something else to the saw... Hawk wanted $150 for a whole new controller box.. I ordered a new rheostat and my son soldered it on for me...  

[OCtoolguy]

2 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

The rheostat... I think is what they end up having to change.. whatever it is.. it's on the circuit board.. as Ray sells you a whole new board.. It's a different set up than my Hawk.. I replaced a $4 rheostat in the one saw I have... not because it was bad... but because I broke it when doing something else to the saw... Hawk wanted $150 for a whole new controller box.. I ordered a new rheostat and my son soldered it on for me...  

Well, the actual rheostat is on the arm by the off/on switch is why I asked. If it's something wrong on the board, that would be the expensive part.

[William O Young]

9 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

 

There are a lot of those old P-20's out there still running good.. You should have hung on to the one you had.. Back when those were the hot saw to have is back when I first started sawing.. Was saving money selling my crafts trying to get one of those P-20's.. The last one on the showroom floor of my local tool shop sold before I could get my hands on it.. They was sure one heck of a solid machine..  

I totally agree .I sure am kicking myself for selling that saw just because I no longer  had room for it in my 10 x 10 shop when I was getting heavier into turning and buying specialty tools for that . They were built like a tank and made to last through generations .I put 20 times the hours on my P-20 than I did on the DeWalt that it replaced  and it was working like the day I bought it when I sold it.  Too bad they discontinued making it but the real reason they did was that they didn't want to cheapen it down and farm it out to Chinese quality  cutters  like so many other  manufacturers did that are now riding on their previous good name alone . 

[teachnlearn]

With your background shouldn't be a problem to trace the voltage from the plug though to the motor with a volt meter. I'm not familiar with the Excaliber if it stays 120 v or coverts to DC for a control circuit. With the board out should see the parts like a transformer, could check the before and after speed control or what I would call a variable resistor, ie rheostat. Should show voltage to the variable resistor and varied out after. Right up to the motor. If you have nothing left in your shop from the repair days they sell cheap portable volt meters to use. Trick will be getting the parts, though it seem some here have bought parts somewhere. RJF

[tgiro]

Hey Bill - welcome back!

The expert of the world on Excalibur saws of that vintage is Ray Seymore.  Don't bother with the SeyCo website. -call them and ask to talk with Ray. He will probably be able to tell you exactly what you need in a very short time. He doesn't sell them any more, but they do support them.

Give Ray a call - he's good folks.

[rash_powder]

I honestly can't see the motor failing.  The brushes may have worn too much, but they still run with the left over nubs; it just wrecks the commutator.  Unless you have an A/C motor, then check the start/run cap or centrifugal switch.

I would look to the control board myself, or that fuse if you can find it.  

My job is a telecom/electronics tech.  In the few years that I have been doing that, I have seen a lot of equipment that was running die on a power cycle.  Being a motor is essentially just a coil of wire it would be the least likely to fail.  

[William O Young]

1 hour ago, rash_powder said:

I honestly can't see the motor failing.  The brushes may have worn too much, but they still run with the left over nubs; it just wrecks the commutator.  Unless you have an A/C motor, then check the start/run cap or centrifugal switch.

I would look to the control board myself, or that fuse if you can find it.  

My job is a telecom/electronics tech.  In the few years that I have been doing that, I have seen a lot of equipment that was running die on a power cycle.  Being a motor is essentially just a coil of wire it would be the least likely to fail.  

I am quite positive it would not be the brushes. That saw has between 20 and 25 hours of use since brand new out of the box.

When I mentioned I was a certified TV technician way back , I meant way back in the 50 and 60s when it was all vacuum tubes .All the techs subscribed to schematic diagrams that came out on every  month  by mail  on the various make and models .Now that it is all solid state it is usually just a case of replacing boards rather than hand wiring in the defective components that used to be mostly resistors , capacitors and diodes  if the tubes still tested good on tube teters . Circuit tracing my saw without a schematic diagram  and with just my volt/ohm meter would be difficult to do without knowing exactly what voltage should be at various locations and where it switched from AC input  to DC on that DC motor .  and no oscilloscope now to check waveforms like back then . Whenever I do get around to pulling the back end apart  to take the circuit board out . . if I can not find an open fuse to replace then it is pretty well a case of ordering a new board because it would be too hard to find the defective part on it unless a case of visibly burnt .

Then , getting a new board is no guarantee of a fix and of course electronic boards are not returnable . 

Pardon me if there are some typos in my message. I just got back from the hospital in the closest city  (250 km round trip) getting my monthly injections in both eyes .It's no picnic but it sure beats the alternative  . . .lol . . . I am typing  with dark sunglasses on because the monitor is too bright for dilated eyes even though the freezing is almost all out by now. 

BTW . . . if anyone here can find the price of both the board and the motor for that saw could you please  post it here .They will be the same for the three different models with the only difference being the size of the table and the length of the top and bottom arms. . . . .I have not found anything on line yet and someone from the states checking it out would save me the price of long distance calls from Canada .

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by William O Young