A question regarding "Aggressive" cutting!

[OCtoolguy]

I have read here and other places about "aggressiveness". I understand what the meaning is when it refers to how the saw cuts. The angle of the saw blade etc. But, what I don't understand is the term when it is referring to the blade itself. I see where many folks use FD blades because they say that the Pegas MGT blades are too aggressive. Can somebody explain exactly what that means. I've been using nothing but the Pegas blades and when I tried to use a FD blade, I found that it was uncontrollable because of the drift. I'd sure appreciate a good explanation of what folks are talking about.

 

[fredfret]

Think about the difference in say a #1 blade and a #7. The 7 is more aggressive than the 1 now wh as t if that 1 cut like the 7. Obviously exaggeration to make a point but that is how I think of blade aggressiveness.

[Scrappile]

To me the more teeth per inch and the depth of the teeth or the teeth gullet affect it aggressiveness.  The Pegas blades I have used and do use have less teeth per inch and bigger teeth so they cut more aggressively.  Just like on handsaw and even table saws. I could be wrong, there are one or two things I still don't know..... well unless I have had a few glasses of wine.... then I get smarter and smarter....

[OCtoolguy]

I have never paid too much attention to all the numbers that go along with all the different blades. I know that some blades are thinner than other of the same size and tpt. Maybe that's the difference. I'll have to start reading all the fine print I guess. I just know that FD blades, for me, have way too much drift and I don't want to have to steer a blade in order to follow the pattern lines.

 

[kmmcrafts]

I agree with those above..

But my take on what those others mean when they use the term is.. The blade is so sharp it cuts too fast for them.. I may be wrong on that but by the way some of them talk about the two blades.. that's what I gather in my tiny brain..

For what it's worth.. I used FD UR blades for 12 years..r more... When I tried the Pegas MG blade.. it cut so much easier.. that I didn't need to push the wood so hard so to speak.. which is how I like to cut.. why I run my saws about full speed.. I find that getting the cutting at a pace where I'm not pushing the wood through then those sharp corners and tight turns happen much easier.. 

When I take a FD blade and put it in my saw.. I instantly feel like I have to shove the wood through much harder.. Not sure I make sense but to me a new FD blade cuts like a dull Pegas blade, LOL  

Many people will say that they run the saw speed slow because it cuts too fast when running the saw faster..When this is said.. my first thought is they push the wood harder than I do.. and maybe harder than they should.. pushing the wood too hard into the blade makes the blade flex.. and they may not be getting accurate cuts.. I watch videos of others cutting.. when they get to the edge of the wood and the blade is about to cut through... with some of these videos you can really see that blade flex.. especially when they cut through that edge and out of the piece.. I don't try to criticize them so i never say much about this.. but they aren't letting the blade do the cutting.. If you're flexing the blade while cutting you're pushing too hard... want to cut faster? turn the saw up.. switch to a different blade so you don't push the blade too hard... everyone has a different style and speed.. and that's just how it is.. but pushing too hard you need to make a change.. with either saw speed or blades configuration.. 

The blade speed doesn't determine how fast / slow you cut.. the person behind the saw does... by how hard they feed the wood... I personally like the speed fast.. and just sort of glide the wood lightly following the lines.. a real smooth waxed table does wonders too.. My tables are slick enough that with those back legs higher than the front to get that tilt.. the board will slide off if I let go of it.. this prevents me from piling the table up with clutter on saws I'm not using for that day,  

 

[JimErn]

 I never really paid attention to the aggressive adjective before and when I did I always related it to the blade movement.  I think if you can feel the difference in blade aggressiveness based on teeth and kerf, you have much more experience and sense of touch than I have.

Interesting thought though.  And I agree with you on the pegas blades.  I used FDUR for a couple of years and after trying the pegas MG blades hate going back to FD.  Speed, the aggressiveness of the blade action, nothing helped with controlling the smaller FD blades, so not true for the pegas MG.

I run my EX at about 3/4 or 7/8ths speed, I do that cause I hate sanding and if I feed the piece at a slow rate, the saw has a chance to cut off more of the fuzzy remnants from cutting, or at least it seems so to me.  I can't remember who here mentioned that saw speed and feed speed were separate in some discussion, a light bulb went off so to speak, an aha moment, and all of a sudden I had more control that before.

[ike]

On my Delta or Wewalt ;I run at speed #6. Slower than that I have to push my wood too hard and above that it is too aggresive ( Wants to cut ) I do a lot oi fret work and at the high speeds it is a lot harder to make my sharp turns and I go outside the lines. that is what I call aggresive .I have tried both FD and Pegas blades and always go back to Olson match blades They are less aggressive . (My openion) ddI have been useing them for the last 40 years. I guess  I am old school.

 

IKE

 

[stoney]

Aggressive in reference to a scroll saw blade to me means it removes the kerf faster than another brand or type.  What causes one brand or type of blade to remove material faster or more efficiently is determined by it's design.  As a general rule a blade with fewer teeth and more set is going to cut more aggressively.   I really like Pegas MG blades but probably would not have when I first started scrolling.   I would not recommend any quite aggressive blade to those just getting started for the obvious reasons.  Just like a beginning driver should not be expected to be able to control a powerful race car.         

[Old Joe]

I used FD for my first few years, tried Pegas and wasn’t crazy about them in the beginning, especially on the micro sizes. They seemed to get away from me on very close cuts somehow. I also felt that they dulled quicker than FDs, but now I think it was something about that batch. Then I got very adjusted to the MG #3 and never looked back. That is my primary blade now. I very rarely use anything larger. I am pushing myself to use, and get used to, spiral blades. I am quickly gaining confidence in using the Pegas 2/0 in 1/4” Baltic Birch or fine portraits. I never really adjusted to using FD spirals, but I think that was more on me than the blades. 
 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Old Joe

[jerrye]

I went MG pretty much out of the gate, and haven't had any issues with control. I have found that I can cut well with MG by using a size smaller than generally recommended.

About to order some Pegas spirals. Will have to see how long it takes to get used to those.

I think most who call blades such as MG "aggressive" are describing how fast and easy a blade cuts. Seems to me that this is exactly what you would want in a blade, but, then again, I'm weird anyways...

[OCtoolguy]

Thanks to all for your thoughts. I mostly agree with what you all have said. I started out using FD and Olsen because they were available. I have tried the very expensive PS Woods too. When I bought my EX, the previous owner had purchased a whole bunch of them so I got to try them without the expenditure. I can't say they are anything special. When Iggy posted about his finding the Pegas blades and how he loved them, I decided to give them a try. The rest is history. I have a whole bunch of blades that will more than likely never get used unless I just happen to run out of my favorite Pegas blades, the #5 MGT. My projects so far have been limited though so I might change my thinking if I ever get into doing fretwork. Right now, it's baskets, bowls, and boxes for me. 

 

[Sycamore67]

Before I make any comments, I want to mention that I cut mainly thicker woods 3/4" to 1-1/2" .  So my observations apply to that on my Hegner Saw.

What you cut and the saw you cut with are all part of the equation for how different blades cut.

I find that the MGT blades are aggressive for me.  They seem to want to cut on their own.  They are great for cutting thicker material as are the PS Woods Super Sharps. I know that many people use the FD ultra reverse blades but they do not work for me  in the thicker woods.  The teeth are not big enough to clear the saw dust efficiently.

I use mainly FD Polar blades and do not notice the drift that some describe.  I do not even think about drift but just concentrate on following the line.

I also will slow my saw down at times when I am cutting detail in thicker woods.  I recently cut some of the compound reindeer that were just over 1/2" tall and ran my saw very slowly to get the cuts done properly.  I just do not have the control on such small things with high saw speed.  

I pay attention to the blade number especially when cutting puzzles.  If I am cutting a Judy Peterson puzzle from 3/4" wood, I will use a FD Polar #5.  This gives me a clean cut with the right amount of kerf so the pieces fit together nicely.  A #3 blade results in tight puzzle pieces and a #7 loose pieces.  I also find the higher the blade number the more difficult to cut tight turns well.  The other thing is that the type of wood also makes a difference in how the pieces fit.  Maple gives very clean cuts and the pieces slide easily.  A puzzle cut with the same blade from poplar or a softer wood may be tighter.

But, everyone has their own style, type of work and type of wood and one needs to experiment to find what works best for them.

 

 

[danny]

Gotta put my 2 cents in here.  No long story.  Have Experimented with All blades mentioned above plus others.

Using BB wood 1/4 or stacking up to 1/2" I Always rely on FDUR#1....  Cuts Faster and Cleaner than say #3-or #5.

Anyway I am a Flying Dutchman type of person.  Danny  :+}

[OCtoolguy]

1 hour ago, Sycamore67 said:

Before I make any comments, I want to mention that I cut mainly thicker woods 3/4" to 1-1/2" .  So my observations apply to that on my Hegner Saw.

What you cut and the saw you cut with are all part of the equation for how different blades cut.

I find that the MGT blades are aggressive for me.  They seem to want to cut on their own.  They are great for cutting thicker material as are the PS Woods Super Sharps. I know that many people use the FD ultra reverse blades but they do not work for me  in the thicker woods.  The teeth are not big enough to clear the saw dust efficiently.

I use mainly FD Polar blades and do not notice the drift that some describe.  I do not even think about drift but just concentrate on following the line.

I also will slow my saw down at times when I am cutting detail in thicker woods.  I recently cut some of the compound reindeer that were just over 1/2" tall and ran my saw very slowly to get the cuts done properly.  I just do not have the control on such small things with high saw speed.  

I pay attention to the blade number especially when cutting puzzles.  If I am cutting a Judy Peterson puzzle from 3/4" wood, I will use a FD Polar #5.  This gives me a clean cut with the right amount of kerf so the pieces fit together nicely.  A #3 blade results in tight puzzle pieces and a #7 loose pieces.  I also find the higher the blade number the more difficult to cut tight turns well.  The other thing is that the type of wood also makes a difference in how the pieces fit.  Maple gives very clean cuts and the pieces slide easily.  A puzzle cut with the same blade from poplar or a softer wood may be tighter.

But, everyone has their own style, type of work and type of wood and one needs to experiment to find what works best for them.

 

 

I'm beginning to understand how the tpi and the blade thickness are just about as important as the blade size. I guess it all has to work together. So far, all I've been interested in is what cuts the best. I do understand the ability of the kerf to dispel the sawdust and that becomes important when doing the compound cutting that I have been doing. So far, my major work has been in 3/4" x 1 1/2" mahogany. I find that I can get two of the pieces that I am doing out of one blade. It becomes pretty obvious when it's time to change blades. Just for the heck of it today, I tried a FD-UR #7 to see how it worked but I didn't get even one of the long wide cuts done and had to change back to my preferred Pegas #5 MGT. There just doesn't seem to be anything that works better for me. Here's a pic of what I'm cutting. I need 20 of these to make the table centerpiece that I'm working on.

[rjweb]

Ray, that is some fine cutting, looking forward to see the finished project, RJ 

[Rockytime]

Ray, looks like you have been busy doing what looks like will be a beautiful project!

[kmmcrafts]

Beautiful cutting Ray!! That is going to be a beautiful piece when you get it done.. I hope you'll show the finished piece..

The number 5 blades used to be my go to blade.. but I'm finding that I like the way a number 3 cuts.. but it really does depend on what saw I'm cutting on and also obviously the material I'm cutting 

[OCtoolguy]

Well, you've seen the votive holders that I have made. 4 of them so far. This is going to be very similar but 10 inches in diameter instead of 5. They each have 8 panels. This will require 20 of them. I'm still working out the math for the base and the top. I had an engineer helping me with drawings but his work picked up and he has been very busy. I'll soldier on though. I'm anxious to finish it so I can get on to other things.

[RabidAlien]

#3 is my go-to blade since I upgraded from a 3" pin-ended saw.  My first "real" blade was a Pegas MG, and I LOVE how those cut.  I sit straight in front of the project and when I hit a straight line I know exactly where the blade is going to go...straight down that line.  I recently ordered two packs of 0/2, 1,3,5,7 blades (12 ea) of Flying Dutchman MG blades, and the first blade out of the pack took off at an angle.  I tossed it.  Second one did the same.  I modified where I was sitting in relation to the project and kept cutting, and tossed that blade at the first sign of slowing down, but the third one behaved the same way.  So I chalked it up to a quirk of the brand.  It still cuts, still follows a straight line if I'm paying attention. 

 

 

Two other observations, the Pegas teeth seem to be deeper, or maybe its in how the teeth are laid out, but the Pegas seems to be more "aggressive" in that it doesn't take as much effort to feed the project into the teeth.  I could leave the piece sitting with no forward pressure on it and the Pegas would still seem to nibble a bit.  The FD blades just kick back and grab a cuppa coffee, waiting for me to start hand-feeding again.  Not good or bad, either way, just an observation.

Also, I've noticed that while both Pegas and FD make MG blades, Pegas uses the bottom 1/5th or so of the blade for all of the reverse teeth.  FD flips every other tooth around.  This might account for the "aggression" in the blade cutting, but it also means that when I wear out an FD blade, I can flip it over in the holders and continue cutting with the "upper" half of the blade that would otherwise never get used.

 

Personally, I'm probably going back to Pegas blades when I blow through all the FD blades in a year or so.  Unless, of course, by that time I'm used to how the FD cuts and dislike how "aggressive" the Pegas blades are...

[Sycamore67]

It would be great for people to tell what saw they are using any the kind of projects or thickness and type of wood.  It would help me to understand the issues they describe.

[RabidAlien]

I'm using a Wen 3906mumblemumble (don't quote me on the model number).  I've used FD and Pegas blades on everything from 3/16 ply to 2" lumber, and at all speeds.  My assessment above still stands, the FD blades still want to pull to the side, its just easier to "correct" (and use the blade to shave) the line with thinner wood.  Faster speed, though, tends to make the FD's drift faster.

[teachnlearn]

When we were 'hurt' we looked for something for extra money and found sharpening can be done sitting down in a chair or in a wheelchair. Since we lived in an apartment I did it mobile and will probably start the company again after our move.I've seen aggressive cutting applied to reciprocating saws, which not only have a up and down motion, but also have a forward motion. Applying aggressive to a blade 'to me' seems vague since blades have thickness, number of teeth and angle of teeth, reverse teeth and the pitch or angle out. When term like aggressive is applied, it seems to be more sales pitch or description. If you expanded this term to other cutting tools, you'll end up with aggressive circular plywood blades, aggressive chain saws, aggressive blades for grinders and aggressive grinding wheels that are more often called course, medium fine or grit.

Cutting action is going to be based on the speed of the machine, the number of teeth per inch the material being cut and the pressure applied to push the material through. Take the right scroll blade and cut 1/16th veneer, cuts like butter and fast too. Now take the right metal blade and cut a 1/2 inch steel bar. Does that then make the veneer blade more aggressive cause it cuts faster?

This seems similar from the sharpening field for sharpening a second 'micro-bevel' in contrast to aggressive.  One group wrote micro-bevel should be used on everything cause of this great advantage of making it 'sharper' and faster to sharpen next time. Fine, I'll sharpen a $10.00 walmart chefs knife and put a micro-bevel on it and sharpen a $400.00 chefs knife and put a micro-bevel on that. Both knives could be called 'SHARPER' for a week, but the guy with walmart knife is going to be back that next week cause the metal is soft and the edge is gone.

Both aggressive and sharp have more factors and companies will use the vagueness of these words to advertise. Remember the knife that stays sharp after sawing a hammer head? Then it cuts a tomato. I want to know how many hammer heads it can cut, cause then I can keep a knife in the shop and not buy the machinery. RJF