Help needed finding a scroll saw to cut metal with.

[Patrice Lemée]

Hi, my name is Patrice Lemée and I am a metal sculptor.

After seeing a clock maker use a scroll saw to cut some rather thick brass I figured I would take a look at them. I am looking to cut metals with it , mostly copper, brass, bronze etc in the 20 gauge or less range. Most of the time more in the 24-26 gauge range.

The thing is the model saw he uses in in Australia so I am searching for something a little closer to home. I am located in Quebec, Canada. What I found locally (Home depot) are the cheap entry level saws but pretty sure that this is a waste of money, for my particular application anyway.

Then we move to something like the classic Dewalt DW788 at around 700$ (plus 15% tax over here...oh joy) and then the Excalibur at around 1000$+tx.

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/general-international-16-inch-tilting-head-scroll-saw/1001122929

My questions are:

1) How well would either of these work for my application.

2) Are there better options?

As a side note, anything higher in price that I have to order from the US will boost the price around 1000$ if you factor in money exchange, shipping, duties, etc... The perfect saw for me would be this:

https://www.knewconcepts.com/Precision-power-saw.php

But like I said that would be at least 3500$CAN and is way above my current budget.

Any help you guys (or gals) could provide would be greatly appreciated.

PS: Here is my latest sculpture in case some of you are wondering what I do.

[scrollingforsanity]

What a gorgeous piece of work. I wish I was that talented. I know the Excalibur and the Seyco will cut metal as when talking to Ray at Seyco he said he guys cutting metal on his saws. I don't know much about the Canadian exchange and shipping. Possibly find a nice used one on craigslist and have it shipped to you. Good luck and I hope you find a saw.  

[Scrappile]

That is a real piece of art!... Welcome to the Village.  I hope you will stick with us and keep showing your work.

 I think if you could find a good used Hegner or a new one if it is in your budget would work fine.  The Seyco, King, Excalibur type saws will do it.  We have a Coin Cutter here, he may have better insight one the better saws for metal cutting.  @hotshot, you around... got some input.

[loftyhermes]

Almost any scroll saw will cut metal with the right blades.

[Patrice Lemée]

43 minutes ago, scrollingforsanity said:

I know the Excalibur and the Seyco will cut metal ... I don't know much about the Canadian exchange and shipping. Possibly find a nice used one on craigslist and have it shipped to you.

I can buy an Excalibur (by General Internationnal) locally for about 1100$CAN. I looked at the used market but the only saws I find are the entry level ones. I'd love an older model like many of my machines are. (lathe from the 60s, surface grinder fron the 60-70s...) Love them.

29 minutes ago, Scrappile said:

I hope you will stick with us and keep showing your work.

 I think if you could find a good used Hegner or a new one if it is in your budget would work fine.  The Seyco, King, Excalibur type saws will do it.  We have a Coin Cutter here, he may have better insight one the better saws for metal cutting.  @hotshot, you around... got some input.

The Hegner is the model the chap in Australia was using. I did find a website selling some in Canada. It would cost around 2400$Can

I am curious about what the price difference gets me. Plus I am getting close to the price of the Knew Concept saw also.

14 minutes ago, loftyhermes said:

Almost any scroll saw will cut metal with the right blades.

I need one that will take jeweler's blades I imagine. That not every saw will do, well not without snapping them right off the start.

Thanks for the warm welcome guys, the compliments and info. I'll definitely stick around and show my work if you guys want. Maybe I can even contribute some. I consider myself a hack at most things but still know a thing or two.

 

 

[meflick]

25 minutes ago, loftyhermes said:

Almost any scroll saw will cut metal with the right blades.

That's what I thought - it was really what blades you are using as to what you can cut.  @hotshot Randy cuts a lot of coins as Paul noted so I would think he would provide good insight.  I think there are some Canadian distributors for the new Pegas saw too.  @Denny Knappen is not in Canada, but he is a distributor for the Pegas saw and he may be able to give insight on what the saw can do with metal and whether you need to order from a Canadian distributor to get best price or if you can order from him as I think they may be drop shipped anyway but I have never been clear on that for sure.

Your sculpture is beautiful.

Edited December 6, 2019 by meflick

[kmmcrafts]

Beautiful work!!! and welcome to the Village..

 

I believe Randy uses the Excalibur 16" saw.. I'd stay away from the "NEW" excalibur 21" saw.. and go with a King if you're going to go with that type saw.. Reason being is the NEW excalibur (EX-21 model) is now a China made saw and they have some pretty bad reviews.. I have one as well and had a fair amount of problems with it for only light use that I've used it for.. The King brand is the same as the "OLD" higher quality EX-21 Excalibur.. 

I personally do not like the idea of cutting metals on a saw of the DeWalt and Excalibur type.. because the bearings in the link arms near the blade are just a needle bearing with a sleeve in it.. so sealed type bearings.. seems like the fine metal shavings would wreak havoc to those bearings... and the little bit of grease used in those bearings would also like to trap and hold that metal in to those bearings too.. With cutting wood like most do with these saws.. the wood dust will not hurt the bearings but it will dry up the grease, LOL  but.. they are a great saw.. and I suppose if you was to keep those bearings cleaned out good and re- grease often... the saw will probably perform well for many years..

I also think the Hegner saw might be a better choice.. as far as the saw quality and built to last.. no bearing right up front to have the metal shavings dropping into etc... BUT... I do think these saws are quite finicky with them real small jewelers blades... and i think this is why Randy uses the Excalibur saw.. Hawk saws are also great and they do offer a wet pump to keep the blade cool specifically for cutting metals and ceramic tiles etc... However I don't think that would be an option for you in Canada.. and they are also very finicky with them small blades...

[shiney b]

your hummingbird is GORGEOUS! i for one would love to see more of your art!

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I can not answer any of the Canada questions but I can say Any saw and I mean any saw can cut metals. Weather bearings is a problem that one I do not believe is true because the saw would also be suspect to saw dust. My opinion. . Set a vac up to collect fine shavings then. With metal you do not get the fine air born dust as you do with woods. The use of jewelers blades and speed is what controls. You will also find that a saw that does not have an inherent aggressive cutting mechanism works well too.  I would think any of the Dewalt style saws would be great for that because they have a more perpendicular blade movement. I cut brass and other metals all the time. Now I have and cut them always on an RBI saw. The company that took over selling RBI saws has taken it to the dumps in my opinion and getting parts and saws take forever. But with that said I have a ton of hours on mine and have 2 of them 220vs and 226vs. I have recently bought some of Mike's Flying Dutchman metal blades and so called jewelers blades but have not tested them yet. I have been buying mine here and like the Antelope blades.

https://www.ishor.com/jeweler-bench-tools/jeweler-39-s-saws-and-blades

By the way your work looks great. need to show us more.

here is a project I have done a few times and the brass overlays were all cut using the the blades mentioned and on the RBI. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[Denny Knappen]

Welcome to the forum from TN.  Your art is beautiful.  Looks like you got some really good advise.  I have the DeWalt 788, Excalibur EX21, and now the new Pegas.  I still use all three.   As stated all saws will cut metal.  I sell the Pegas but not to Canada.  Whatever saw you get, a some point in time you may consider the Pegas Blade Clamp Holders.  They really improved my EX21.

[Scrappile]

Just a point, Hergner (Advanced Machinery) also sell a cooler tank and setup for the Hegner (Around $130, which seens pretty expensive to me for a plastic tank and some tubing, but it does say Hegner on the side of the tank I think.  That has to up the price somewhat).  As for the Jewelry blades or tiny medal blades, I do not know.  I have not add a problem with the small blades I use, but when you get down to the tiny ones,, I can't say.

[meflick]

2 hours ago, Denny Knappen said:

Welcome to the forum from TN.  Your art is beautiful.  Looks like you got some really good advise.  I have the DeWalt 788, Excalibur EX21, and now the new Pegas.  I still use all three.   As stated all saws will cut metal.  I sell the Pegas but not to Canada.  Whatever saw you get, a some point in time you may consider the Pegas Blade Clamp Holders.  They really improved my EX21.

Thanks Denny, I suspected that you didn't sell the Pegas into Canada but wanted to make sure. There are some Canadian distributors for it.  Bear Woods comes to mind you can find them here: https://www.bearwood.com/scroll-saw-blades.html  Not sure if others are not.

[hotshot]

My take:  Top arms on Hegner and Hawk are both driven on the downstroke by the blade itself, so using very fine Jeweler blades is a huge problem.  You can crank down the speed to minimize the "jerk" on the blades, and one cutter I know of cuts with the Hawk and does this very thing, but in my opinion, those slow speeds are incredibly frustrating.

Depending on what you are cutting, you can most likely get by with the larger non-Jeweler blades, which would be a lot more Hawk/Hegner friendly.

A note about Jeweler blades on the Hegner, if you go this direction, this requires special small Hegner clamps for the bottom, available from Advanced.

I've done most of my cutting on the old Green Ex-21, and Added the King 16" as my travel saw.  I've also owned the Dewalt and it is very well suited for Jeweler blades also.  I have many many hours on Ex-21, and have zero failures other than the clamp stripping from over tightening.  I've now upgraded to Pegas.

If it were me personally, for this specific type of work, I would stick to the DeWalt/Pegas/King/Seyco/etc type saws.

--------Randy

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by hotshot

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I will disagree with Randy on the Hawk and Hegner being a huge problem as he puts it, at least I had not found it to be.  I have both saws and have had no problem cutting metals on my RBI. I have cut brass as shown, copper which can be a bear and aluminum with absolutely no problem. Have not tried cutting with the hegner. Have also used the Dewalt and that too cut well. I had mentioned this before that on the type #1 saws they had a flaw of the aggressiveness of cutting due to the table not set up properly to the blade. I had to jury rig the table to make the cuts more parallel. I have shown photos of how I did this here too. Not sure if that situation was ever addressed with the newer ones or if anyone really checks to see on their saws or if it even bothers others. On the RBI saw you need to make sure you are in the non aggressive slot when setting that bottom clamp. From what I read on the new ones there is a way to take that aggressiveness out by sliding the bottom clamp in and out. Setting up your saw is always important to get optimum use out of it.  

Edited December 7, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Have to say I have never seen or heard of that Knew Concept precision saw. That is strictly a jewelers saw from what I see. But it is a different looking saw for sure. Thanks for the link. Learned something.  

[dgman]

If I were in your business, I certainly would go with an appropriate saw for the task. Going with a saw that is not designed for your needs will surely disappoint you. You may have to save up for the right saw.

[Sycamore67]

This is an interesting discussion.  One thing to consider is the material that you are cutting.  From what I have seen on forums Hotshot does a lot of coin cutting and his observations are great for cutting coins.  I would think it is a different case cutting thin brass,  copper and aluminum.  JT's  observations seem to apply to these thinner softer materials.  

[Rockytime]

Years ago at a woodworking show long before I knew what a scroll saw was I watched a Hegner rep cross out a dime leaving the outside ring and maintaining the inside figure. I just happened to see this orange machine and wondered what it was. The rep asked if I would like to see a demo and I said yes. Most amazing thing and he never even nipped his fingers. He said the saw was the best in the world because it was the only saw in which the blade went perfectly straight up and down. He was a great salesman and I was a terrific pauper. The word Hegner stuck in my mind. It was many years later that I began thinking scroll saw. I realize now there are other very good scroll saws but that demo never left my mind. I have no idea what this information is good for!

[Patrice Lemée]

Wow a big thanks guys , lots of info to process.

From the little I got with a quick read most saws will work. It's not that I don't want to save for a Knew Concept saw but I do have a lot more tools on my Wishlist so if I can do the job with a 1000$ tool instead of a 3500$ one, that's funds I can spend elsewhere. (Next thing I would like is a rolling mill and that I could get with the money difference) 

So I am checked around and found a distributor near me for King Canada. I'll be calling Monday to get a price on the 16" and see if I can learn where it was manufactured. I hope in the US but I thought everything came from China especially since these all look very much alike (king, pegas, excalibur, etc...). If this saw is good enough for what Hotshot does there is a good chance it will do. (I will buy the pegas clamps for it)

Only question I have is that if I find the country of manufacture and that the king 21 is made in the same place, is there a mechanical advantage with the larger saw beside the larger table/throat? 

Anyway I'll read some more all your advice to understand it a bit better. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Oh and thanks for the good words about my work. I'll make a proper introduction post this weekend where I'll share some more.

[teachnlearn]

These folks have great experience with scroll sawing and a lot of topics here have a wood variation. I would check machinist, jewelry and sculpture forums and ask around. You have a very special field and great talent. Probably a lot of the scroll saws will do a project with a metal blade. Before you sink your money into any equipment, check with folks in your field and fields close to it like areas of metal working. They may very well be using the same scroll saws that wood scrollers' use, and I think there maybe a few on the board that cut other then wood. Once variation is cutting money.

One running thread with every craftsman, hobbyist and professional, they ALL have their favorite brands, techniques and experiences with different equipment. Amazon has one through five stars for the same product.  When I looked up various keywords on sculpture, jewelry, scroll saw,  I found many college art departments listing sculpture work shops. Check out your area or online for colleges with sculpture programs. Find the professors that teach it and call, email, go talk to them. I spent years in college and professors always had open door office hours to talk to anyone that walked in. If you go, bring a piece of your work. They will have all kinds of info for you and probably help you walk through what works and what doesn't. Richard Friese

https://art.ku.edu/sculpture-facilities-and-equipment

Edited December 7, 2019 by teachnlearn

[kmmcrafts]

5 hours ago, hotshot said:

My take:  Top arms on Hegner and Hawk are both driven on the downstroke by the blade itself, so using very fine Jeweler blades is a huge problem.  You can crank down the speed to minimize the "jerk" on the blades, and one cutter I know of cuts with the Hawk and does this very thing, but in my opinion, those slow speeds are incredibly frustrating.

Depending on what you are cutting, you can most likely get by with the larger non-Jeweler blades, which would be a lot more Hawk/Hegner friendly.

A note about Jeweler blades on the Hegner, if you go this direction, this requires special small Hegner clamps for the bottom, available from Advanced.

I've done most of my cutting on the old Green Ex-21, and Added the King 16" as my travel saw.  I've also owned the Dewalt and it is very well suited for Jeweler blades also.  I have many many hours on Ex-21, and have zero failures other than the clamp stripping from over tightening.  I've now upgraded to Pegas.

If it were me personally, for this specific type of work, I would stick to the DeWalt/Pegas/King/Seyco/etc type saws.

--------Randy

 

Randy, Since I now have one of those newer BM series Hawks.. I have to ask if you've ever used a older version Hawk? Something I noticed right off the bat with my new BM series is the saw motor runs full speed right off the bat.. and this is about the only dislike I have with my new saw which I've gotten used to now....  I could see this being an issue with the smaller blades.. I rarely use a blade smaller than a #3.. but do go to 2/0's with spirals.. Anyway.. the older RBI models that I have... they  have a "soft start" and I like that feature better... The features of the new saw ( for me ) out weigh the one dislike that I have with it.. I've run 100 hours on the hour meter I installed on it.. But I've not run it for a couple months.. No reason other than giving it a break and racking up the hours on the other saws.. My Excalibur will be 100 hours tomorrow as well.. and nearing that with the other two saws.. LOL.. 

Anyway, I just wanted to bring up that point with the new saw vrs the older with the soft start.. I know you had the newer BM series.. but wasn't sure if you felt the same way with the older saws if you've used them at all?  

[Terry Jay]

The Excalibur and DW788 were clones.  They share a lot of parts, had the same designer, and operate on the same principles.  Either would work for your purpose, and there should be used ones from time to time.   I have both, as well as Hawk saws.  A Type I 788 is a great saw, the Type is listed on the motor.  The EX used to be Purple when it was built in Canada by General.  The Green ones were marketed by Seyco.  I like the EX 21 best, as the arm raises easily to clear the stack for the next cut.  The tension adjustment on the 788 is a better method, as it is a sliding ramp rather than fixed.

The EX and 788 can be top fed for interior cuts, most other saws are bottom feeders.  In my opinion, top feeding is far better.  

As for blade clamps, I have found the clamps on the EX and 788 are fine, provided.... do not over  tighten,  and put the active clamp screw in the bottom clamp on the left and the passive one on the right.  The act of tightening will keep the blade back in the holder.  A bit of down pressure on the upper arm will increase the tension.

One thing on blades.  Consider wiping the ends with a solvent for residual oil ( you will notice they do not rust) and lightly rough the surface with sandpaper for a firm seating in the clamps.  

Used 788 saws  are usually about $350 US on the used market.

Good luck on your search.

[loftyhermes]

8 hours ago, hotshot said:

My take:  Top arms on Hegner and Hawk are both driven on the downstroke by the blade itself, so using very fine Jeweler blades is a huge problem.  You can crank down the speed to minimize the "jerk" on the blades, and one cutter I know of cuts with the Hawk and does this very thing, but in my opinion, those slow speeds are incredibly frustrating.

--------Randy

It's all about tension with fine blades. My old Deltas (40-560 and 40-540) have a solid metal link bar at the back of the arms that keep them in position and will drive the arms whether a blade is fitted or not, (the quickset clamps make a hell of a racket when doing this) so they should be able to take jewellers blades without any problem. The smallest blade I have used is 2/0 but I'm sure that these saws will handle jewellery blades without any problem as long as the tension is set correctly.

 

[hotshot]

11 hours ago, kmmcrafts said:

........Something I noticed right off the bat with my new BM series is the saw motor runs full speed right off the bat.. ....

My BM did not start out full on.  If I had the speed set on slow, it would start slow.  As a matter of fact, it had the ability to run the slowest of any saw I've ever run. Not sure how practical those speeds are, but I thought it was cool that it could do it.

When I'm talking about small blades, I'm not talking about 2/0 regular blades.  For metal thicknesses of coins, I don't run above "2/0 Jewelers" and on high detail typically 3/0 to 6/0.  On Amazon, buy you a pack of "Pike 3/0 Jewelers blades" or smaller, then give those a shot on the very slowest speed.  Then start cranking it up . . . . you will see what I mean.  Same thing for Hegner.  You should be able to get a gross of these on Amazon for about $19.  By the way, Pike is the Pegas line of Jeweler Blades.

But that said, again, I have to emphasize that unless you are cutting very detailed items like coins, there are a whole range of metal blades that are not in the "Jeweler Class" that will handle the Hegner and Hawk a lot better.

Using a shorter Arm Hawk would also lessen the stress on the blades.  If you have a shorter arm version, you might see how that fares.

Edited December 7, 2019 by hotshot

[hotshot]

12 hours ago, Patrice Lemée said:

Only question I have is that if I find the country of manufacture and that the king 21 is made in the same place, is there a mechanical advantage with the larger saw beside the larger table/throat? 

There is one very practical advantage of the 21" that has nothing to do with capacity.  Because of the longer arm of the 21, there is a little more flex, and a little less tension, at least that is what I have experienced on mine.  So when I started using the 16", as soon as I tightened, the blades would snap from too much tension.  It's not a huge problem to fix, but it takes a little different method to load.  Here is a video I did some time back that demonstrates the issue, and how to resolve on the 16" models.