Is RBI Hawk still in business?

[kmmcrafts]

Something to remember with these saws.. is.. they rarely need parts.. how many blade holders you think they sell or would need to sell a year... it's a simple part.. but it's also a 20 year old saw... How many other scroll saw companies you suppose that still offer parts for a 20 year old saw? They've had at least 2 new models of these saws since the Ultra style saws was made.. The blade holders are different on these newer saws.. 

When I ordered blade holders for my 1993 saw they took forever and I was complaining about it on either here or another site and someone mentioned to me about how it was the old round clamps.. and they make them as ordered because they rarely sell those clamps anymore.. the cost of materials and machining time, not to mention shelf space for the day someone needs a clamp that maybe every 5 years someone will order one.. isn't cost effective to have sitting around.. 

Now this is still not right to have to wait it out so long I suppose.. but on the other hand.. I'm just thankful they still support parts these old saws.. Only other saw brand I've seen support parts for older saws is Hegner.. Excalibur no longer sells parts for the older style saws.. Heck delta doesn't support a 5 year old saws parts.. yet they somehow warranty them for 5 years LOL ...  

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

12 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

Something to remember with these saws.. is.. they rarely need parts.. how many blade holders you think they sell or would need to sell a year... it's a simple part.. but it's also a 20 year old saw... How many other scroll saw companies you suppose that still offer parts for a 20 year old saw? They've had at least 2 new models of these saws since the Ultra style saws was made.. The blade holders are different on these newer saws.. 

When I ordered blade holders for my 1993 saw they took forever and I was complaining about it on either here or another site and someone mentioned to me about how it was the old round clamps.. and they make them as ordered because they rarely sell those clamps anymore.. the cost of materials and machining time, not to mention shelf space for the day someone needs a clamp that maybe every 5 years someone will order one.. isn't cost effective to have sitting around.. 

Now this is still not right to have to wait it out so long I suppose.. but on the other hand.. I'm just thankful they still support parts these old saws.. Only other saw brand I've seen support parts for older saws is Hegner.. Excalibur no longer sells parts for the older style saws.. Heck delta doesn't support a 5 year old saws parts.. yet they somehow warranty them for 5 years LOL ...  

Are you kidding Kevin?????????????????? Get real man. Kevin THEY TOOK OVER THE BUSINESS.  HOW MUCH ROOM DOES IT TAKE TO HOLD BLADE HOLDERS. So what it is a 20 year old saw. Just throw a $1200 saw away because they do not stock parts. Small items KEVIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hope you never need parts from them with that new saw of yours. Busy, how many $1200 saws do you think they are selling with so many $500 saws on the market these days. If they can not handle the business then get out and let it be taken over by someone who can or just let it completely dry up. Then we all will know the situation. But to draw from your account and not produce simple parts is not cool and yes I am pissed. You spin it anyway you want you won't convince me. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

Not saying it's right.. but it is for real.. You show me another brand of scroll saw that still supports the parts for a 20+ year old saw... Hawk and Hegner do.. Hawk makes their parts as ordered for these older saws.. ( But I agree.. It shouldn't take 3 months.. maybe a couple weeks.. then again.. be thankful they still make the parts at all.. maybe they should just say.. we no longer make those instead of making one wait a few months.. much easier to not support these older saw parts like the others do..  )  Hegner never really changed much so parts for old saws are the same thing so still stocked.. 

I had a Delta SS350.. was only 5 years old and the blade clamps was obsolete.. as well as the power on / off switch..  

A ryobi that was only 1 year old that the power switch was NLA.. 

A Dremel that the rear rod between the arms broke 1.5 years old NLA..

so as I said.. 

Hard to say how many saws they sell... Last year they told me my saw was #57th  that was ordered at Christmas time.. which is why it took me 3 months to get it.. there was 57 people in front of my order.. since I ordered after Christmas but before the new year..

Edited December 22, 2019 by kmmcrafts

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 hour ago, kmmcrafts said:

Not saying it's right.. but it is for real.. You show me another brand of scroll saw that still supports the parts for a 20+ year old saw... Hawk and Hegner do.. Hawk makes their parts as ordered for these older saws.. ( But I agree.. It shouldn't take 3 months.. maybe a couple weeks.. then again.. be thankful they still make the parts at all.. maybe they should just say.. we no longer make those instead of making one wait a few months.. much easier to not support these older saw parts like the others do..  )  Hegner never really changed much so parts for old saws are the same thing so still stocked.. 

I had a Delta SS350.. was only 5 years old and the blade clamps was obsolete.. as well as the power on / off switch..  

A ryobi that was only 1 year old that the power switch was NLA.. 

A Dremel that the rear rod between the arms broke 1.5 years old NLA..

so as I said.. 

Hard to say how many saws they sell... Last year they told me my saw was #57th  that was ordered at Christmas time.. which is why it took me 3 months to get it.. there was 57 people in front of my order.. since I ordered after Christmas but before the new year..

It is that many people in line because they are not making all year round. There was not 57 that ordered Christmas time. I bet there were many people who waited much longer than you because it was farming season when they ordered. You mention cheap China made saws and that is what you are comparing to. ??????????? Those clamps and that quick release lever were used up till a few years ago. There are more saws out there with that setup then this new system. It is not that it is a 20 year old saw. The parts are not nearly 20 years old. Whose fault is it they keep changing types of saws. Like you said Hegner has not changed much since it started the business. $1200+ saw you expect better service. You are not buying a cheap throw away China made saw. Tell me they will not carry parts any more than I move on. To not stock simple items like this is ridiculous. What they wait till they get an order of 50 so they can run a batch. Is that how they operate. Look at the dewalt saw, change countries and still get same parts. Have not changed the saw any. They been around just as long. Do not tell me it takes up room and is stock that is not making money. That is stupid reasoning. 

Kevin why don't you tell your customers they can have their ornaments 3 months from now and see how fast your business disappears.  Tell them your saw broke down and you are waiting on parts. Your arguments do not hold water. They do not know how to run a business. You will never change my mind that this is a poorly run business and if I was in the market for a saw today it would never be a RBI. And this is coming from a 2 time RBI user and owner. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[kmmcrafts]

The G4 is when they changed the clamps.. 2004 - 5 so no.. not 20 years.. but still been a while.. The current BM series saw is nothing more than a G4 with different motor and controller.. All the parts from the G4 works on my saw short of the motor and the controller..So RBI is the one to change the clamps..

I don't disagree, with you about them poorly running the business.. I was just saying they aren't the only company to do this.. I almost bought a brand new Delta P-20 back in 2006-7.. about a year or so after that they discontinued the saw and the quickset clamps was obsolete as was the drive belt and many other parts.. That's not a cheap saw... who actually made it I don't know.. but it was still a $1200 saw.. and I also remember many pissed owners.. For those "other" companies they was just told to throw out and buy a new saw... Hawk still supports the parts.. you just going to wait for them.. They should be up front about this back order stuff though.. I do agree with that.. 

The bottom line is.. they do run the place poorly I won't argue that point with anyone.. The saws are awesome.. you may want to order any other parts as spares and run it till it stops.. If you're in desperate need of the clamps.. I can mail you some..

[Rolf]

My wifes 2008 Hardtop convertible 35K many parts no longer available. Right or wrong ?

 

TIS THE SEASON  play nice! Merry Christmas to all and may Santa bring us all some new toys!

[kmmcrafts]

11 minutes ago, Rolf said:

My wifes 2008 Hardtop convertible 35K many parts no longer available. Right or wrong ?

 

TIS THE SEASON  play nice! Merry Christmas to all and may Santa bring us all some new toys!

Merry Christmas Rolf  

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

27 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

The G4 is when they changed the clamps.. 2004 - 5 so no.. not 20 years.. but still been a while.. The current BM series saw is nothing more than a G4 with different motor and controller.. All the parts from the G4 works on my saw short of the motor and the controller..So RBI is the one to change the clamps..

I don't disagree, with you about them poorly running the business.. I was just saying they aren't the only company to do this.. I almost bought a brand new Delta P-20 back in 2006-7.. about a year or so after that they discontinued the saw and the quickset clamps was obsolete as was the drive belt and many other parts.. That's not a cheap saw... who actually made it I don't know.. but it was still a $1200 saw.. and I also remember many pissed owners.. For those "other" companies they was just told to throw out and buy a new saw... Hawk still supports the parts.. you just going to wait for them.. They should be up front about this back order stuff though.. I do agree with that.. 

The bottom line is.. they do run the place poorly I won't argue that point with anyone.. The saws are awesome.. you may want to order any other parts as spares and run it till it stops.. If you're in desperate need of the clamps.. I can mail you some..

Again you seem to want to defend these guys with your last breathe so have at it. Kevin I can fix the clamps just knock out the pin and I have done that. The replacement quick release parts is what is needed. I have another saw so it has not affected me. But if that were the only 2 saws I had and ran a business like you are doing what would you do. You keep bringing up Delta. They no longer exist pal. Delta is not the Delta that made that saw. Dremel is not the same company,  Have no idea what Ryobi is. RBI is the same company under new leadership. THEY BOUGHT THE COMPANY and with it all the saws. You do not just stop making parts because you choose to change styles. Again not good business. Imagine car companies doing that and the parts for them. Oh that was last years model we don't carry parts for them any more.  You should take your own advice and stock up on parts. You seem to have a fetish with bearings so grab a bunch of them. Never know when you will be in that situation. 

By the way is it not the same release system on todays saws??  If that is the case then this is even more of a tragedy. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[DME72]

i think part of the problem is Bushton is a small  company and like most small companies alot depends on outside vendors. dont think it is right that it has taken this long but you should have been informed about the wait. or if you dont like the wait time get a refund. i am sure a local machine shop would be more than happy to make a few clamps for you, you WILL NOT like the price it costs. it is really not that complex of a part to make by the looks of it. it is all set up time on equipment to make it. i for one went from a dewalt 788 to a BM20 and it was a big learning curve. my main thing is i did not like the clamps. i was used to the dewalt/excalibur style thumb screw with the rotating inserts. after making new clamp knobs with inserts like the dewalt i would not trade that saw for anything.  i am glad i kept the BM20 saw.

[kmmcrafts]

2 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

 

By the way is it not the same release system on todays saws??  If that is the case then this is even more of a tragedy. 

I'm not sure if the actual parts are different or not.. but the new style saws G4 saw and newer are  slightly different system.. You can order a upgraded kit.. I put this kit on my old 1993 220VS saw.. BIG improvement over that older style.. The kit is really designed for upgrading the Ultra style saws.. But I don't necessarily see a huge benefit to upgrade it.. unless maybe they have the upgrade in stock? I'm not sure..

This is the older Ultra style http://stores.bushtonhawkstore.com/upper-blade-holder-bracket-assembly/

This is the upgraded kit.. http://stores.bushtonhawkstore.com/upper-blade-holder-bracket-conversion-kit/ 

I don't know what parts you need.. maybe the kit is a quicker option.. I don't know.. Also not sure if the cam piece is the same piece or not.. I've never compared them from the old / new saw.. They'd be able to tell you a lot more than I can about it..

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

12 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I'm not sure if the actual parts are different or not.. but the new style saws G4 saw and newer are  slightly different system.. You can order a upgraded kit.. I put this kit on my old 1993 220VS saw.. BIG improvement over that older style.. The kit is really designed for upgrading the Ultra style saws.. But I don't necessarily see a huge benefit to upgrade it.. unless maybe they have the upgrade in stock? I'm not sure..

This is the older Ultra style http://stores.bushtonhawkstore.com/upper-blade-holder-bracket-assembly/

This is the upgraded kit.. http://stores.bushtonhawkstore.com/upper-blade-holder-bracket-conversion-kit/ 

I don't know what parts you need.. maybe the kit is a quicker option.. I don't know.. Also not sure if the cam piece is the same piece or not.. I've never compared them from the old / new saw.. They'd be able to tell you a lot more than I can about it..

 

The $50 part is the one I ordered and they are not in stock They are the same style except for the push pin.

Ordered the lower clamps. I believe they now make them a one piece item instead of a roll pin in them I fixed mine by replacing the roll pin so not concerned but wanted to try the new blocks. Not in stock.

Ordered some FD reverse blades and they were in stock but after using them I do not believe they are either from the same company but they cut differently and the packaging is different.  Sent my invoice back with in big red letters partial order, will send remainder when it comes available. Got in touch with them about 3 weeks ago through their web site. Could not get on the phone even in the morning. Then we started emailing. They told me I can have my money back but like I told them they have me between a rock and a hard place because I can not get the parts anywhere else. Now with one of my saws I jury rigged the cam and filed it flat so that the arm locks and does not jump open when sawing like it was. I should not have to do this and am willing to buy new parts. There is just so many parts that can fail on a scrollsaw and those are the parts you need to have in stock. So inventory is minimal so that excuse about lose of money does not fly. This is just not a way to run a business if you want customers. Again I will say this till I am blue in the face we buy the better commercial grade saws so we do not have to buy a new saw every 2 years. $1200+ is nothing to sneeze at. How many people are mechanically inclined enough to jury rig things and do work  arounds to make up for lack of competence from a company. If the help and parts are not available then why buy that expensive of a saw. If I had to buy a saw today it would be the Hegner hands down. I do not like the arm action of all these Dewalt look alikes. 

I am done with this. I said my piece just like you complained when you bought your new saw and the runaround they gave you. I have my 220 running so I will wait them out. Have no other choice. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[OCtoolguy]

Geez, now you two have me wondering if I should use my Hawk or sell it. If I can't get parts, what good is it? I sure wouldn't own a car that couldn't be repaired so why a saw? I sure hope Bushton cares enough to remedy this situation. 

[DME72]

JT exactly what parts do you need for the saw. i read that it was clamps, and yes the clamps have changed. it sounds like you need the front cam that holds the front tension lever. you can cheat and buy you some time and file a flat on there. it is my understanding the edges get rolled over or rounded. it is no fun at all waiting for parts, but bushton will come through. may take some time. most of the parts that wear out like would not be that difficult to make, if you had a small metal lathe and mill. another member on here tried to get bushton to supply unthreaded blade holders so he could use the dewalt/excalibur style thumb screws. he never got an answer as far as i know. i made him a set in 1/4-20 to try out. my point is there are not really a ton of parts to wear out on that saw. if anything goes wrong on my hawk i would rather tear it apart than my 788. been there done that! bushton will come through for you.

[kmmcrafts]

8 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

Geez, now you two have me wondering if I should use my Hawk or sell it. If I can't get parts, what good is it? I sure wouldn't own a car that couldn't be repaired so why a saw? I sure hope Bushton cares enough to remedy this situation. 

You should probably sell it Ray, and sooner than later.. Once word gets around about the way they sell parts for these old saws.. or if / when they fold up the doors.. who's gonna want to buy it?  You're not happy with is so move it on.. But more importantly.. I bet no more than you use the saw.. You'll never need to worry about buying parts anyway.. I have rebuilt the whole very old Hawk 220VS and did many upgrades to that saw.. Put about $250 into that saw.. paid $100 for the thing.. I production cut with it for 1.5 years before buying the brand new old stock 226 Ultra.. No hours on it.. Run it production cutting for another 1 - 1.5 years before buying the brand new BM-26.. I doubt I'm going to need to worry about parts for a few more years.. as there is no wear at all on the main wear parts.. and I actually do oil my machine as stated in the manuals... 

 

 

 

 

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

52 minutes ago, DME72 said:

JT exactly what parts do you need for the saw. i read that it was clamps, and yes the clamps have changed. it sounds like you need the front cam that holds the front tension lever. you can cheat and buy you some time and file a flat on there. it is my understanding the edges get rolled over or rounded. it is no fun at all waiting for parts, but bushton will come through. may take some time. most of the parts that wear out like would not be that difficult to make, if you had a small metal lathe and mill. another member on here tried to get bushton to supply unthreaded blade holders so he could use the dewalt/excalibur style thumb screws. he never got an answer as far as i know. i made him a set in 1/4-20 to try out. my point is there are not really a ton of parts to wear out on that saw. if anything goes wrong on my hawk i would rather tear it apart than my 788. been there done that! bushton will come through for you.

Doug I need the quick release parts for both my RBI saws. The link was posted above yours. It is the $50 part. Ordered 2. I did as you indicated and jury rigged one of them Just filed the cam down to make it flatter because after use the metal rolls over. Then what happens as you are sawing the lever pops up and you lose tension of blade. I ordered 3 more of the lower blade holders because as I mentioned I think they went with a solid piece as opposed to a block with a roll pin in it to support in holder. Over time that roll pin will bend and now the blade does not track straight. I use my saws alot. Not as much as I use to but still a  fair amount of time. My days of consigment stores, and 6 shows a year are behind me. I had replace that quick release once before but the company that originally owned RBI had them in stock and I replaced with the one that was on the saw. No need to upgrade. 

You make my point for me and agree with you 100%, there is not much that goes wrong with these saws but at some time parts wear out. To stock parts that wear out does not take a whole lot of shelf space or $$$ because many parts are interchangeable. The big expense is the motors on the saws. Why should I have to hunt someone down to mill parts for me and charge me twice as much. Even if they sell 2 of these a year what difference does it make?? Are they working on that short of a shoelace to run this business. When it is a part time business for them does not bode well for saw owners. Paying that much money for a saw you hope there is a team there to back them up. This is not a China piece of trash. Again I have the ultra saws and love them and made alot of money with them. I bought them and spent the money up front to get a commercial saw that stood the test of time and it has. I did not anticipate the owner change and then having this poor service. How in the world is that good business practice?? I use to promote RBI saws all the time but this soar taste in my mouth can not be washed out. And to top it all off they charge your card right away. No problems there. You order a saw that is big money they now can play with. 

All I can say is buyer beware. Have no idea what their plans are and if they will continue down this path. If they do they will be overrun because there are more big time players in the field now. So that short shoelace will get even shorter. 

[DME72]

JT you should ask bushton if they are not going to get those parts anytime soon if you can just replace the front cam. that part is about $12 or so. but not sure if it will fit the older saw like you have. it might be worth asking to get you by until the upgraded parts arrive. also are you talking about the roll pin that goes thru the lower blade clamp? on my BM20 it has a roll pin and the whole lower blade clamp snaps in and out to change blades. also a well stocked hardware store should have roll pins, you may have to grind a little of the end if too long. mcmaster-carr sells alot of that stuff too. you can buy all the parts to make your own clamp knobs at home.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 hour ago, DME72 said:

JT you should ask bushton if they are not going to get those parts anytime soon if you can just replace the front cam. that part is about $12 or so. but not sure if it will fit the older saw like you have. it might be worth asking to get you by until the upgraded parts arrive. also are you talking about the roll pin that goes thru the lower blade clamp? on my BM20 it has a roll pin and the whole lower blade clamp snaps in and out to change blades. also a well stocked hardware store should have roll pins, you may have to grind a little of the end if too long. mcmaster-carr sells alot of that stuff too. you can buy all the parts to make your own clamp knobs at home.

Doug not to discourage you but I have discussed the lower blade clamp here some time ago and that is an easy fix as I said. Yes harbor freight has a kit with roller pins and you can get many sizes.  Someone had mentioned that they started milling those clamps without the roll pin and the 2 legs off the side are all part of the clamp now. If that is not the case then so be it. They were cheap enough so I ordered them. I have plenty of older ones that I can fix and did fix. And no that $12 part does not fix the problem and thus the $50 part is needed. My saw is up and running from my fixes but again I should not have to do this I am more than willing to pay for the parts. Just make available. My scrolling is done for the season now anyway. I am now focussing on turning pens which is another hobby of mine. The whole part of this is the taking of the money from my account and them sitting on it and drawing interest off my money. That rubs me the wrong way. 

[OCtoolguy]

6 minutes ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Doug not to discourage you but I have discussed the lower blade clamp here some time ago and that is an easy fix as I said. Yes harbor freight has a kit with roller pins and you can get many sizes.  Someone had mentioned that they started milling those clamps without the roll pin and the 2 legs off the side are all part of the clamp now. If that is not the case then so be it. They were cheap enough so I ordered them. I have plenty of older ones that I can fix and did fix. And no that $12 part does not fix the problem and thus the $50 part is needed. My saw is up and running from my fixes but again I should not have to do this I am more than willing to pay for the parts. Just make available. My scrolling is done for the season now anyway. I am now focussing on turning pens which is another hobby of mine. The whole part of this is the taking of the money from my account and them sitting on it and drawing interest off my money. That rubs me the wrong way. 

No reputable company takes your money knowing they don't have what you ordered. Bad business for sure.

[kmmcrafts]

42 minutes ago, octoolguy said:

No reputable company takes your money knowing they don't have what you ordered. Bad business for sure.

So you're saying i'm wrong to charge people for clocks that I don't currently have in stock huh? Some people like to be paid in advance for there are a lot of people out there there that want it until you have it made then they change their mind.. Being a small business.. i can't take the loss of my time making something that someone changes their mind on then i set on it for 3-5 years.. which cost me not only the storage space but the materials it took to make it AND.. I could have used the time to make something that someone actually pull through and do buy.. 

You ever take peoples money for crafts you currently don't have in stock? How would a custom or personalized order be handled.. You make it then they don't want it.. what then?

I'm not relating this to the Bushton situation I'm over that discussion.. But since this comment came up I'm curious what you folks do for crafts that people order.. Maybe I'm not running my business right... I was doing it how most other crafts people said they do it on the etsy and other site forum.. I guess maybe I shouldn't sell things I don't have.. and not be charging for custom / personalized stuff until i have it made.. 

EDIT To Add: I do tell my customers that the time frame for getting their order is 14 days before I can mail it out... Bushton doesn't do anything of that nature..No timeline or anything..  I remember that from my barrel clamps order that took 6 weeks to get..  I was mad but also thankful too.. because I was able to get the old saw up and running.. They supported an old RBI made saw.. The company changed hands 3 times.. First is was RBI Industries.. Then Hawk industries bought them out and run the place bankrupt before selling out to Bushton in 09. Without bushtons buying them nobody would be getting any parts at all.. which maybe the future of it anyway.. I'm just glad I was able to get the parts for that old saw..

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by kmmcrafts

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I see this is taking another turn now but to your point about not being any RBI. So what we move on do not drag us along a path of uncertainty.

I will answer your other question being you are comparing yourself to RBI. These are not custom made parts. What about this do you not get Kevin. Send an email your parts are in I will now charge your card. How hard is that to do??????????????? To your point about crafts. I always charged 1/2 price and rest on delivery. I have been burned before but I got half the money which paid for materials. How you operate is up to you. What others do should be no concern to you. Did this throughout my years doing consignment stores. Had 2 customers change their minds but it is stipulated by the owners that they lose their deposit because you did go ahead and make the item. At shows I tell customers I do not do custom work and I don't. Not worth the effort at all. I have added names to a piece that was already made but that is different. I could easily take them off and resell. But if cut into piece I did not make it.  You say you will lose money. If it is on your site then it is something you make but just do not have any at the time. If you stop selling then you are fraudulently selling. Now if they want custom names that one is on you and being in business you should realize this happens. Life happens. Live with it.

Edited December 23, 2019 by JTTHECLOCKMAN

[dgman]

Man o man, I’ve been gone for two day and you two are still at it!! Why don’t we call a truce and wish each other a Merry Christmas!

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

4 minutes ago, dgman said:

Man o man, I’ve been gone for two day and you two are still at it!! Why don’t we call a truce and wish each other a Merry Christmas!

Come back in another two days. Or just do not click on this thread. Simple. 

[rjweb]

I am getting an education, don’t stop now, have a happy holiday,RJ 

[dgman]

10 hours ago, JTTHECLOCKMAN said:

Come back in another two days. Or just do not click on this thread. Simple. 

Well actually, I don’t usually read when you two Alpha Dogs are going at it, but since I was away I had to se where everybody was. 
john, thank you for the help you gave me recently. It’s funny, Kevin never responds when I post!

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

1 hour ago, dgman said:

Well actually, I don’t usually read when you two Alpha Dogs are going at it, but since I was away I had to se where everybody was. 
john, thank you for the help you gave me recently. It’s funny, Kevin never responds when I post!

Just who I am I guess. There have been others that have jumped into the conversation so it is not just us too. If you would like to add something other than season greetings, glad to read them. I jumped into the conversation from the OP and just wanted to vent some and it has gone down this path and I have no control. But at least it keeps the site active. By the way Merry Christmas to you and all those members here.