Air Filtration vs Dust Collection?

[barb.j.enders]

I am starting to look at upgrading some stuff in the shop.  At this point I use a box fan with a filter taped in front as air filtration.  I use my shop vac to suck up the sawdust after I cut.  If you could only purchase 1 item, which would it be.  I am looking at the WEN air filter system that Steve Good has reviewed. Or I am looking at a cyclone dust collection system at the saw.  I have been looking at a DIY system, but want something much quieter than my shop vac!  Any thoughts on using an older house vacuum and something smaller than a 5 gallon bucket to build a cyclone dust collector!  I don`t mind emptying the bucket more frequently!

[Denny Knappen]

Look at Steve Good’s review of the Seyco dust collection system.  I have one on my Pegas Scroll Saw.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

You are talking 3 different things here and all do a specific job and all can be very helpful. First is the Wen air filtration system. It is design to collect the very tiny particles of dust that float in the air any time they are disturbed. You can have dust on the floor and not see it and yet it floats in the air. This will capture it along a long period of time because it circulates the shop air across 2 sets of filters. These are designed to scrub the air and not pick up dust or debris.

A cyclone dust collector is a system to collect debris and dust at the source of the tool. It takes the larger piece and throws in a barrel as the finner dust goes in a filtered bag. They can be very efficient but can be overkill for scrollsaw work. They are designed for larger tools such as lathes, table saw, bandsaw and such. There are homemade versions and also professional units that are much more efficient and quieter. These homemade units that attach to a shop vac are basically a larger shop vac and still noisy. 

Then there is the shop vac that can be connected to the saw with varies degrees of pipe works. I will leave that to others because I do not use them and in fact use nothing at my scrollsaw and never did. I do have an air cleaner that runs the very minute I walk in the shop and if I have a heavy dust making day I leave run for about an hour after I leave. 

Without getting technical and electrical I can tell you that shop vacs use a universal motor that uses brushes  and is very loud. Now some vacs like the Festool and the Fein have found ways to insulate their product with very good sound proofing and cut way down on he noise levels and thus the higher price for them. A dust collector uses an induction more efficient and quieter motor but is designed for heavy duty uses. 

A box fan only collects dust in the air. It does not collect dust that is produced while cutting so to answer your question you need 2 things. Something to collect airborne dust and something to collect dust at the source. I know that is not a direct answer because there isn't one. For me the airborne dust is the more harmful. The dust made at the saw just falls on the floor and I vac it up when done. I have a large dust collector but it is for my larger tools.  I could never run a shop vac while scrolling. That noise would drive me nuts. Buying these expensive shop vacs to use for scrolling to me is a waste of money too. They get turned on and off so many times and that is hard on those motors. Good luck. 

[CharleyL]

Barb,

My best suggestion, without breaking the wallet too much, is to use a re-purposed vacuum cleaner or a shop vac, with a Dust Deputy in the line ahead of it. A 5 gallon bucket under the Dust Deputy will catch 99% of the sawdust that your scroll saw will produce, and I'm willing to bet that you can't fill that 5 gallon bucket in a full year of using your scroll saw. The filter in the vacuum will collect almost nothing during this same period.  The re-purposed vacuum would be my choice because it is much quieter than a shop vac. You might add a Scrollnado, if it will fit your saw, and you won't need to clean the saw dust off the floor or change vacuum cleaner filters frequently any more. You won't believe how well the Dust Deputy works to keep your vacuum level from dropping and your vacuum filters from needing frequent changing.

I re-purposed a whole house central vacuum and a Dust Deputy and  installed the pipes to inlet ports for it at various places in my shop and use it mostly for my scroll saws, drill presses, and sanders, but also put an inlet port outside next to the passage door of my shop. I use this port for vacuuming my cars and trucks with the original 25' hose that came with my re-purposed vacuum. My Dust Deputy sits on top of a 20 gallon metal barrel, and it's been several years since I needed to empty it. My vacuum and Dust Deputy are located in the attic above my shop with the exhaust vented to the outdoors, so not even the sub micron sized sawdust ever gets back into my shop air. For just one or two scroll saws, my suggestion above should be more than adequate for your needs. 

Charley

 

[kmmcrafts]

1 hour ago, Denny Knappen said:

Look at Steve Good’s review of the Seyco dust collection system.  I have one on my Pegas Scroll Saw.

I've seen Steve's review quite some time ago.. I may go back and re-watch it again.. as I've had quite an interest in this compact system that would attach right to the saw stand etc..  Since you say you have one, What is your thought of it?  I'm thinking of buying one in the next few days.. The disadvantage to me on this system is I'd need a few of them unless they are easily swapped from one saw to the next.. which is why I've had a Festool or Fein in mind and build my own piping.. The price of the Seyco is a lot less if only buying one.. but... would it be easily moved from saw to saw?  

[Denny Knappen]

12 minutes ago, kmmcrafts said:

I've seen Steve's review quite some time ago.. I may go back and re-watch it again.. as I've had quite an interest in this compact system that would attach right to the saw stand etc..  Since you say you have one, What is your thought of it?  I'm thinking of buying one in the next few days.. The disadvantage to me on this system is I'd need a few of them unless they are easily swapped from one saw to the next.. which is why I've had a Festool or Fein in mind and build my own piping.. The price of the Seyco is a lot less if only buying one.. but... would it be easily moved from saw to saw?  

Hi Kevin.  I am very satisfied with the system with one drawback.  The pick up is only on the bottom, no pick up on top.  It is permanently attached to the Pegas. so I do't think it is an option for more than one saw.

[kmmcrafts]

I have both a fan with filter and a Grizzly ( Like the Wen ) that hangs from the ceiling..and this is my take on it...

After using the dust port on my Excalibur for a few days of production cutting..  I think a small dust collection at the saw is important.. While as was mentioned.. the dust does just fall to the floor... BUT.. any time you move around you stir up that fine dust.. I was amazed at how much cleaner the shop air was just by hooking up the shop vac to that dust port..  Also not as big an issue with the Hawk saw. because the majority of the dust falls into the saws stand.. so it doesn't stir about as much as it does on say the DeWalt and EX type saw. where ALL the dust falls to your lap and on the floor.. Once in your lap.. you carry that dust with you inside the house / car and where ever else you may go..  Thus.. you need to wear a mask all day and even when you do the laundry.. as any time you move those cloths you can see that fine dust stir up.. IF you look through a light or the sun light just right... you'll see it for sure.. so if using one of those type saws... My vote would be for some kind of dust collection at the source before it gets stirred up where ever you go.. 

Ideal would be all of those suggested.. but I get a lot of dust caught in my box fan and the hanging filtration system.. My next step is at the source.. personally I think I went about it backwards after using that dust port on the EX.. Just I can't stand the noise of the shop vac.. 

[OCtoolguy]

I have a Wen, a cyclone system using a Fein vac, and a box fan with filter. I still wear a dust mask. The Dust Deputy/Fein would be my best suggestion as a starter. The Wen works well as an air cleaner but capturing most of the dust at the source is the best idea. I edit to add this, my shop is all of 9 x 13. In such a confined area, capturing the dust is imperative.

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by octoolguy

[Gonzo]

I have the Fein and highly recommend it. I use it on my scroll saw, band saw, and drill press. I do not have a cyclone hooked up to it. (Although I do have one, but I never use it,)  I go through maybe 2 or 3 bags vacuum bags a year. The air filtration systems that hang from the air do pique my curiousity. 

[Gonzo]

6 hours ago, Denny Knappen said:

Hi Kevin.  I am very satisfied with the system with one drawback.  The pick up is only on the bottom, no pick up on top.  It is permanently attached to the Pegas. so I do't think it is an option for more than one saw.

Denny,

How noisy is your system?

[trackman]

I have a jet filtering system an a shop vac hooked up to a dust deputy for the Scrollsaw, bandsaw an sanders.  Also a dust collector for planer, table saw, drum sander. 

[Denny Knappen]

1 hour ago, Gonzo said:

Denny,

How noisy is your system?

It is noisy but not as bad as a shop vac.  I think someone said 62 dB.

[Puzzleguy]

Hi Barb i have a system like the wren ( can't recall the name its hanging in my shop on 4 steel chains )

 it works good  - i also have a secondary Air filtration system which is basically a box fan with a filter paper in the front of it - 

which is about the same thing and easier to use ( plus its way cheaper and easy to move around ) - plus i of course have an older Dust collector ( grizzly 2 bagger )

all three of these are different in ways- technically you dont need a dust collector if all you do is scrolling ( maybe a broom and dustpan )

 

Where i would start is by using a dust respirator mask  - 8210 plus N95  ( 3m ) 

 

[Sycamore67]

2 hours ago, Puzzleguy said:

all three of these are different in ways- technically you dont need a dust collector if all you do is scrolling ( maybe a broom and dustpan )

 

 

I do not agree about not needing a dust collector.  You are sitting very close to where dust is being generated and closer than almost any tool.  You are going to be breathing fine dust.  I have a vacuum hooked to my scroll saw for dust collection.  Personally, I want to reduce the amount of dust I breathe as far as possible.  But everyone should do what makes them happy.

 

[rash_powder]

I would opt for the dust collection system.  Reason being you already have a very effective dust filtration unit based on this vid by Izzy Swan.

 

I don’t know what your budget is, but harbor freight has a nice, smallish dust collector that would really only need a bag to filter upgrade.

[Sycamore67]

A box can filter will work but not as well as the Wen or other real filter. The box fan filter does not reduce the small particles as well based on some testing that has been done.

The best way to collect dust is at the source.  All air filters collect dust in the air of the room and after you have had a chance to breath it.  Small dust which is most hazardous will remain floating in the air for a long time and also settle on your clothes.

We all have different types of equipment.  It is important to do the best that we can.  Our group is also on the older side and as we age our lungs have reduced capability to handle dust. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Sycamore67

[barb.j.enders]

10 hours ago, rash_powder said:

I would opt for the dust collection system.  Reason being you already have a very effective dust filtration unit based on this vid by Izzy Swan.

I don’t know what your budget is, but harbor freight has a nice, smallish dust collector that would really only need a bag to filter upgrade.

Thanks for the video.  Very informative.  

 

[barb.j.enders]

13 hours ago, Puzzleguy said:

Hi Barb i have a system like the wren ( can't recall the name its hanging in my shop on 4 steel chains )

 it works good  - i also have a secondary Air filtration system which is basically a box fan with a filter paper in the front of it - 

which is about the same thing and easier to use ( plus its way cheaper and easy to move around ) - plus i of course have an older Dust collector ( grizzly 2 bagger )

all three of these are different in ways- technically you dont need a dust collector if all you do is scrolling ( maybe a broom and dustpan )

 

Where i would start is by using a dust respirator mask  - 8210 plus N95  ( 3m ) 

 

I am already wearing a higher quality dust mask.

[kmmcrafts]

When I first got my ceiling hanging filtration system I was wondering if the thing even worked... filter never really got dirty like the box fan filter did.. over time ( running both ) I do see the filter get dirty.. but the majority of the dust is in fact collected at the box fan rather than this ceiling unit..

As for quality of the air in the shop after filtration.. A LOT will depend on the quality of the filter you use on the box fan.. not all filters are created equal.. The guy doing the video appears to be using a very high end filter.. Not sure how much those cost with the charcoal etc.. I use a high quality for allergy use type filters on my box fan.. they aren't really all that cheap compared to some other knock offs... But I've used both and have been impressed with the difference in how much is being collected onto the filter.. 

For me.. I'm not looking for such a quality of air in my shop as to ditch the dust mask I use.. I'll always use the mask.. For me it's about catching all that floating dust from covering my tool box and all my tools and the old truck I store in the other bay.. Yes I use a truck cover.. but still hate all the settled dust no matter how you look at it..  Using the box fan and the filtration system has significantly reduced the dust in my shop as a whole.. and that is why I use the box fan.. I'm thinking about adding another couple box fans..

Again, collecting that dust at the source for that short period of time that I had my shop vac hooked up to the dust port on the Excalibur really amazed me.. I just want to get a "quality " vac system that runs quiet.. and... is designed to turn on / off with the tool.. 

I might add this bit to the first paragraph.. That hanging filter gets dirty quite fast IF I do not turn on the box fan..  To do over again.. I might have been better off just getting a second fan..

Edited December 29, 2019 by kmmcrafts

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I am a woodworker and work in my shop year round. I never collected dust at a scrollsaw with any device but if you are going to then that is the best way to get most of it by connecting a vac system directly to it. I am not advocating to do anything either my way or anyone elses way. you do what you feel is the right thing for you because people allergys are all different and people react to dust differently. The reason I do not bother with collecting dust at the saw is I have so many other tools running in the shop that are bigger dust makers than a scrollsaw. yes I have a dust collector system set up to collect dust at the source of these tools but a dust collector will pick up the larger particles easier than the small ones so that is not a full proof method. Thus the air cleaner hanging from the ceiling and that too will scrub the air but it takes time to circulate air and with the continuing addition of more dust as you work it will never keep up. But it does work. With my scrollsaws I have the articulating hose blow the dust away from me. the dust on top of the saw is the one you are exposed to not under the saw. After every sitting I vac up the area and if doing alot of cutting I will vac between sessions to give myself a break. I always wear a dust mask in my shop even if it is a nuisance dust mask it still will capture some dust. Have to remember if you do not clean entire shop every day after every use that dust gets on the floor. Walk into the shop and you now kicked it back into the air and the cycle begins all over again. So you are kidding yourself if you think you are collecting all sources of dust being made in a shop. Yes as I said the best attack is to have a vac at the source but that needs to be a vac with a heppa filter because small shop vacs will leak the dust back out the other end. Those filters inside are not that good. The vacs such as the fein and festool are designed to be switched on and off. Not as much as a scroll will because of the fret work we do but they are a better choice if you did the vac thing. Shop vacs like Ridgid and craftsman will not take that kind of abuse and fail. The motor on them is not designed for that kind of on off operation. Plus they do not filter the dust well either. The dust deputy and other cyclones are too not made for the kind of dust collecting you all are talking about. They will work to an extent and you will see better results with clean up but again you are fooling yourself if you think you are getting all dust. Those of you that use a fan are kidding yourself also. yes you are collecting dust in the filter but what about all the dust going around the fan and now you are blowing it into the shop all around in the air. Again you are having an effect on gathering some of the dust but not all. Any layer of dust and debris collecting you can add will make a difference but the bottom line is protect yourself at the source you breathe in. That is the final line of defense. Clean your self off when done working so you do not drag throughout the house. I like to take an air hose and blow the dust off me outside. This is one big reason I do 95.5% of my sanding out doors. Scrolling is one thing but sanding is a whole other anaimal that is 100 times worse. 

Good luck and safe woodworking. 

[Sycamore67]

Lots of comments and thoughts. 

If you want some real data on the effectiveness of box fans with filters read this link.  it provides info about how fast and to what level a box fan filter works with different sizes particles.  This data used a box fan with a better fan than the normal box fan.

 

[OCtoolguy]

The bottom line here is...anything you do to protect your lungs is better than doing nothing at all. Keep it clean folks.